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Poland Lithuania - current relations


gumishu 11 | 5,017
13 May 2011 #61
yeah, you should - all three of you :)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
13 May 2011 #62
:)

Must admit it gumishu - I think PO's strategy towards Lithuania is failing.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 May 2011 #63
As I was learning history at school I was thrilled why are the topics after Lublin have less and less feeling of "great success", later that made sense to me. On the other hand I couldn't say that Lithuanians see that period as a destruction of Lithuania. The saddest thing for Lithuanians, in my opinion, is not that Poland was the bigger power of the Commonwealth but that Lithuanians elite were abandoning their identity.

The problem here is that Lithuania could not survive without Poland, bordering Moscow, Novgorod and Kievan Rus with only a tiny population it had no chance of survival.

Lithuania effectively rode out the most dangerous period on Polands back.

Or would it definitely have led to a union or even incorporation into Poland?

Long term? You'd have Polish Poles and Lithuanian Poles.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
14 May 2011 #64
The problem here is that Lithuania could not survive without Poland, bordering Moscow, Novgorod and Kievan Rus with only a tiny population it had no chance of survival.

But when Lithuania and Poland first allied, in 1386, Lithuania was three times the size of Poland and the Kievan Russ were Lithuanian subjects. Perhaps you are right and Lithuania couldn't have held that territory for much longer without Poland and her much larger population.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 May 2011 #65
But when Lithuania and Poland first allied, in 1386, Lithuania was three times the size of Poland

And less than a 10th of its population.

and the Kievan Russ were Lithuanian subjects.

Nominally.

Perhaps you are right and Lithuania couldn't have held that territory for much longer without Poland and her much larger population.

The problem is that in 13-15th century technological civilisation ends on Polands eastern border, countries like various ruthenianduchies (Kiev, Novgorod, Moscow) or Lithuania are at this time technologically a solid 200 years behind Poland or Western Europe and in case of Lithuania there's also a small population.

The race to subjugate/exterminate Lithuanians was already on and piggybacking on Polands significant power in the region was the only way for Lithuanians to survive.

Also it explains why so many Lithuanians got enamoured with polish culture, Poland was two centuries ahead in every respect which means it had a lot more to offer, music, poetry, jousts, medicine, agriculture, science (all of these such as they were in medieval times of course) so obviously Lithuanians embraced it.

The relations got poisoned by the 20s period when Lithuanians tried to assert themselves by supporting Soviet Russia and then Poles who invaded Vilinus, todays history is viewed through the lens of Lithuanias interwar plight but the relation with Poland was definitely beneficiall, without it there would simply be no Lithuania today, of any sort.
Lithuanian - | 1
15 Sep 2011 #66
TheOther: For how much longer does Poland want to be stuck in the past?

Indeed! TBH i see many conflicts rising because of this "Vilnius/Wilno" bullshit. Lithuanians had it, Polish took it, Lithuanians took it back with help of USSR, end of the story, it's now in Lithuania and is Lithuanian capital

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_War

We have a reason to hate Polish people, im not saying we do
Also everythings explained in that article, too lazy to write lulz

And for these saying that Lithuania couldn't survive - we have been powerful and great nation , until we have been so stupid to ally with Poland, which had ****** us up, taking half of our territory. If we wouldn't have Commonwealth, Lithuania would have all of that territory, or atleast half of it.
David_18 68 | 982
15 Sep 2011 #67
And for these saying that Lithuania couldn't survive - we have been powerful and great nation , until we have been so stupid to ally with Poland, which had ****** us up, taking half of our territory. If we wouldn't have Commonwealth, Lithuania would have all of that territory, or atleast half of it.

Haha!

No... It would have been a Russian colony where you could forget the freedom you enjoyed under the union with Poland.

Lithuanians were dumb pagans praying to trees and stuff before the Poles came and civilized you.

Without Poland there would be no Lithuania today, since Russia would Fu*** you over in the 1400's and make sure to erase anything Lithuanian and mindfu**k you to believe that you've been Russians since forever.
Ironside 49 | 9,916
15 Sep 2011 #68
If we wouldn't have Commonwealth, Lithuania would have all of that territory, or atleast half of it.

im your dreams, and your age matters because I;m not going to argue with a kid.
Somerset 2 | 19
15 Sep 2011 #69
Lithuanians were Nazi collborators. You deserved what you got from Uncle Joe afterwards.
MyMom 6 | 137
15 Sep 2011 #70
If we wouldn't have Commonwealth, Lithuania would have all of that territory, or atleast half of it.

So you wanted to have huge territory which wasn't ethnically Lithuanian and you denied Poland the right to have Wilno, which was ethnically Polish?
Somerset 2 | 19
15 Sep 2011 #71
MyMom

actually up until the end of the 19th centuary Vilnius had a Jewish majority, even in 1939 it was 30 % Jewish and 65 % Polish lithuanian facists only made up 0.8 %.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius#Demographics
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 Sep 2011 #72
actually up until the end of the 19th centuary Vilnius had a Jewish majority, even in 1939 it was 30 % Jewish and 65 % Polish lithuanian facists only made up 0.8 %.

I'm sorry but Wiki is lying, Jews constituted 19% of the population.

If we wouldn't have Commonwealth, Lithuania would have all of that territory, or atleast half of it.

No, withouthe Commonwealth Lithuania would be overrun by Russia during the 1515-1522 war where Poland provided 70% of all troops and won saving the Duchy of Lithuania at the Battle of Orsza, at Orsza all of artillery, heavy cavalry and 2/3rds of infantry was Polish (24.000 out of 35.000 troops came from Poland).

In all the subsequent wars with Russia it was Poland that provided the bulk of the forces and enabled the continued survival of Lithuania.

And for these saying that Lithuania couldn't survive - we have been powerful and great nation , until we have been so stupid to ally with Poland

You had your armies massacred and your territory taken apart by the Teutonic Order, the first stone castle was built in Lithuania only 80 years before Grunwald Battle and plate armor, artillery, crossbows, siege engines were unknown in Lithuania untill Poland introduced them.

Lithuania was a state 200 years behind Poland or the TO, its large territory had few cities and sported a small population, without Poland either the Teutonic Order, Novgorod or Muscovites would destroy Lithuania in the late XV early XVI century.

Poland is the sole reason why Lithuania today even exists.
MyMom 6 | 137
17 Sep 2011 #73
Poland is the sole reason why Lithuania today even exists.

Yep, without Poland they would end up just like Prusowie.
Palivec - | 380
17 Sep 2011 #74
Or the Estonians and Latvians...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 Sep 2011 #75
Unlikely, both Muscovites and Teutonic Order had Lithuania targetted for annihilation, only the military might of Poland applied in a series of XV an XVI century campaigns saved Lithuania from complete and utter destruction.
Palivec - | 380
17 Sep 2011 #76
The Teutonic Order didn't have the mandate to annihilate Lithunia but to convert pagans to Christians. What wiped out old Prussians saved Latvians and Estonians. It's therefore pure speculation to speak of "complete and utter destruction".
Crow 137 | 7,756
17 Sep 2011 #77
Commonwealth, Sarmatism

ah, those were good old days when Poles, Lithuanian and Serbians raided together on the back of their horses. We penisized all our enemies and stubbed them to death with our penises. One hardly war aware if he died from a sharp lance or a penis
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 Sep 2011 #78
The Teutonic Order didn't have the mandate to annihilate Lithunia but to convert pagans to Christians.

Stop being such a faggot, the Teutonic Order depopulated entire regions, i don't care about the paper what they historically did was genociding the f*ck out of Lithuanians.

What wiped out old Prussians saved Latvians and Estonians. It's therefore pure speculation to speak of "complete and utter destruction".

No its not pure speculation because both the Teutonic Order and Muscovites historically did murder everything that walked on two legs, only the involvement of Poland stopped said invading forces from depopulating all of Lithuania.

Its not speculation it happened historically, they did not stop because they wanted to, they stopped because Poland introduced them to Pax Polonica the hard way.
Crow 137 | 7,756
17 Sep 2011 #79
Stop being such a faggot, the Teutonic Order depopulated entire regions, i don't care about the paper what they historically did was genociding the f*ck out of Lithuanians.

Germanics worked and still work against Slavs

You Poles can turn yourself into the salt in order to present yourself as good neighbors to the Germany but still, they would always found reasons to attack and humiliates you until they finally destroy you. They work against you at day and at night, from Baltic to Balkan, from Europe to the Asia
Palivec - | 380
17 Sep 2011 #80
Stop being such a faggot, the Teutonic Order depopulated entire regions, i don't care about the paper what they historically did was genociding the f*ck out of Lithuanians.
No its not pure speculation because both the Teutonic Order and Muscovites historically did murder everything that walked on two legs, only the involvement of Poland stopped said invading forces from depopulating all of Lithuania.

Blablabla. The Teutonic Order and the Livonian Order converted old Prussians, Latvians and Estonians by force. Latvians and Estonians still exist. These are facts, and your rant can't change that.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 Sep 2011 #81
Prussians do not exist and Latvians and Estonians were not converted by force, my "rant" is based on history and yours is based on what?
Palivec - | 380
17 Sep 2011 #82
Based on history... lol. Ever heard of the Livonian Crusade? Terra Mariana? The reason for the establishment of the Livonian Brothers of the Sword?
retroDog
19 Sep 2011 #83
i do believe that both nations in long term needed an Union to survive Germans and Russians. Poland was probably stronger then Latvia, but was is strong enough? I doubt it.

It was very fortunate to all nations of Commonwealth that Poles and Latvians agreed to make this country, and I think both nations (or even all nations of Commonwealth) should be proud of this powerfull country.

together we were players in region, divided we are really only spectators.
Medis - | 17
19 Sep 2011 #84
retroDog

I think you got mixed. It is Lithuania which united with Poland, not Latvia.
retroDog
19 Sep 2011 #85
sugar :-)
of course you are right.
not enough coffee in the morning.
Medis - | 17
19 Sep 2011 #86
retroDog.

I agree with your point of view.
I think Lithuanian and Polish historians would agree also.
Ironside 49 | 9,916
19 Sep 2011 #87
do believe that both nations in long term needed an Union to survive

Nope, only GLD needed Poland to survive !

I think Lithuanian and Polish historians would agree also.

Some would, some wouldn't !
Medis - | 17
19 Sep 2011 #88
Nope, only GLD needed Poland to survive !

Yes. Of course. Poland did not had any enemies... Teutonic order was just a wimp...
Don't forget that if not the union then GDL would have remained an enemy to Poland.
Ironside 49 | 9,916
19 Sep 2011 #89
Poland did not had any enemies... Teutonic order was just a wimp...

Temporally alliance would suffice........and then start on friendly footage with Russia.

Don't forget that if not the union then GDL would have remained an enemy to Poland.

Yes, they were pests, an alliance with Russia would be a good thing.
Medis - | 17
19 Sep 2011 #90
Yes, they were pests, an alliance with Russia would be a good thing.

This is an insult. This is my past and you call my ancestors pests?


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