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Poland's law and justice.. return of Sanacja?


goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
11 Jun 2017 #1
Hey everybody I'm back ;)

We are 2 years and a bit into the rule of the pis govt and many people from journals to leaders of the nationalist movements often talk of PiS comparing them to post 1926 govt.

My personal opinion is that ttheyarfar away from this archetype ... Sanacja have heavily militirised the society, officers run the majority of ministries avite now at least we shall see how the Referendum works out :-)

What are your opinions NeoSanacja or nope?
gumishu 11 | 5,629
11 Jun 2017 #2
We are 2 years and a bit into the rule of the pis govt

a year and a half and a bit - do your math correctly
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
11 Jun 2017 #3
I see traditions of the gorszy sort here on of have not improved much :-) but ok my accuracy fetishist, 1.7years :-))
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Jun 2017 #4
Sanacja

Threre are similarities and differences. Sanacja was intended to sanitise or cleanse society of cliques, old-boy clans, professional dynasties and the corruption that went with them. In that way, it was simialr to PiS. But the PiS government is in no wise militarised -- only civilians in the ministries.

Some have accused Piłsudski of being a dictator, even a fascist (today's PiS-bashing opposition levels the same charges at Kaczyński). But Piłsudski after setting up the state did withdraw from pulbic life for a coupla years only to see the country rife with corrupiton and going to pieces. The Nazi fifth column, Soviet fifth column (KPP) and Ukrainian terrorists all engaged in subversive activites and posed seroious security threats. Niceties and appeals would not have worked, so he had to choice but to stage his 1926.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,235
11 Jun 2017 #5
Sanacja was intended to sanitise or cleanse society of cliques, old-boy clans, professional dynasties and the corruption that went with them. In that way, it was simialr to PiS.

Judging by the overall results of the Sanacja rule in Poland, namely the very quick victory over Poland by the Nazi Germany in 1939 (Blitzkrieg), their governments were rather more disastrous than excellent. Notice that after September 1939, the officers of the Polish Army in the West (Sikorski et al.) generally judged the Sanacja people with contempt and no respect whatsoever. And they seem to have been right - Poland had been prepared for the war badly despite its army being quite large; the modern Polish warfare was sold abroad rather than left at home for the use by the army; and also the Sanacja economic policy was largely erroneous on the macro-economic level. At the same time, the Sanacja's propagandists were extremely loud in saying that in case a war broke out, our brave army were to arrive quite soon in Berlin defeating Hitler and its generals. As a result, people in Poland were truly shocked by the developments of war in 1939 and by the fact that the German army found itself near Warsaw so promptly.

So the lesson for you from all this is that shouldn't believe in everything what the propaganda tells you even if it is Jarosław Kaczyński himself who is behind that propaganda warfare.
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
11 Jun 2017 #6
You seem to forget that Germany wasn't the only country that attacked us in Ww2. And you also send to forget that we get guarantees from the cowardly traitors in England and France that in a way pushed the Sanacja into an overoptimistic thinking.

If Pilsudski would live to 39, he'd never allow Poland to be the first victim.

In my opinion Pis has very little to do with Sanacja as it depends on the voters to support them, Sanacja depended on the Sovereign.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
11 Jun 2017 #7
What are your opinions NeoSanacja or nope?

They are somewhat, in a sense they themselves are seeing it as a kind of a 'good example' to follow.
They're not as circumstances are completely different. Similarities are only superficial.

Some have accused Piłsudski of being a dictator,

He was a dictator.

to see the country rife with corrupiton and going to pieces.

Sure, according to him. Somehow he didn't want to stand to election to put his claim to the test. Must have been crap and propaganda.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Jun 2017 #8
put his claim to the test

That suggests tat everyone voted into office is a sterling patriot deidcated only to the good of the nation. The public is easily swayed by clever propaganda, to cite only the way PO pulled the wool over people's eyes for a full 8 years.
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
12 Jun 2017 #9
Kaczynski didn't stand because many people have been brainwashed in Poland by the regime media of the first sciek.
Iv personally met voters in their 50s saying that they wouldn't vote for Kaczynski because he looks like a potato, or that his eyes look evil and stuff like that. Kaczynski largely as a top tier political figure has been burned by the gazwyb and other post Nocna Zmiana brainwashing vendors.

PiS did a great Nelson with picking people like Szydlo or Duda that the Michnikowszczyzna had no way to attack.

Pilsudski indeed was a dictator and with his governing in a way purified the definition of a dictatorship. What's to blame largely for the great diplomatic failure that was the Ww2 is not Pilsudski per se by the Junta that took control after his death.
mafketis 24 | 9,126
12 Jun 2017 #10
Kaczynski didn't stand because many people have been brainwashed in Poland by the regime media

IME simply showing him often speaking has a very negative affect on most Polish people. He's a confrontational ideologue with a superiority complex who is incapable of anything like diplomacy and he despises democracy beyond its role in giving him power.

picking people like Szydlo or Duda

you mean spineless marionettes who will jump any direction the party leader tells them.
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
12 Jun 2017 #11
^ Haha the screeching of the platformers is the sweetest sound :-)
Ironside 50 | 10,907
12 Jun 2017 #12
That suggests tat everyone voted into office is a sterling patriot deidcated only to the good of the nation. The public is easily swayed by clever propaganda,.

Sure, like he tried to sway public opinion by clever propaganda. Yet , he wouldn't wanted to risk to go through with putting his popularity to the test. A military coup d'état is not a good solution. His whole program was ME BE in charge - ego too big maybe. His rule achieved preciously little.

IME simply showing him often speaking has a very negative affect on most Polish people

Negative effect? all that JK? Man you really hold a grudge or are simply obsessed. I could point out or name names of people ion Poland whose actions or inaction wrought really adverse effects on the whole populace in Poland as well as ended up tragically for quite a few individuals. Those people in a large number take a precedence over JK and his influence on the country. His negativity is highly overrated in the context he operate.

I guess talking to you is like talking top a blind man about color.

his governing in a way purified the definition of a dictatorship.

What do ya mean? purified? Was he some kind of a bleach in your mind?

sure thing that he can be blamed for the WWII failure. After all his ego and his inability to govern put in charge of Poland the some inept group that screwed up badly.
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
12 Jun 2017 #13
any evidence of Pilsudski wanting Rydz Smigly to be in power after his death?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
12 Jun 2017 #14
After all his ego and his inability to govern put in charge of Poland the some inept group that screwed up badly.

Are we...agreeing?

Piłsudski seemed to rely way too much on "Cud nad Wisłą", and his emphasis on putting army officers in charge of large swathes of land as absent landlords was a complete disaster. Had he lived until WW2, I dare say he would be remembered as one of the worst commanders in Polish history.

WW2 didn't have to go that way, but Piłsudski seemed to be completely unable to accept that warfare was changing quickly. What were great tactics in 1920 simply were outdated by 1935, and what he left behind was a bunch of useless idiots that couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.

From the very beginning, Poland should have trained a guerilla force capable of tying up huge amounts of resources. The country didn't have the money to arm itself on a massive level, but it certainly had the resources to create a destructive guerilla army with the benefit of knowing the terrain.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
12 Jun 2017 #15
any evidence of Pilsudski wanting Rydz Smigly to be in power after his death?

It doesn't matter what he wanted or not. He is dead. What matters is what had happened, he put those dudes in power, he made 'sanacyjna' Poland and look at the result - a crushing defeat.

Are we...agreeing?

I agree with your first two paragraphs. He was a good Leader in 1918 - 1920, a great military commander in 1920 but an absolute disaster as anything that involved governing and such.

Poland should have trained a guerilla force

The fun fact is they did. Not enough and most of them flared up prematurely probably due to dumb instructions.

It wasn't question of money and technology but of the bad management... Poland could still lose against might of Germany and Soviets combined but it wouldn't be such a crushing defeat as in fact it was.
OP goofy_the_dog 1 | 35
13 Jun 2017 #16
he put those dudes in power,

as i said is there any evidence of Pilsudski putting Smigly in the highest office in the land? nope!

Sanacyjna or not going against Germany would always be a crushing defeat lol, if Pilsudski would be alive to see 1939 wwe would be allied with the Germans against the commies most likely as Pilsudski would never allow Poland to be the first nation to join the war per se, he anticipated a world war on his deathbed and before that even.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
13 Jun 2017 #17
It wasn't question of money and technology but of the bad management... Poland could still lose against might of Germany and Soviets combined.

Do you think the Soviets would have even invaded if the Polish Army was waging a guerilla war against the Germans? It seems to me that they deliberately waited until they knew that the Germans had already won.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
13 Jun 2017 #18
he anticipated a world war on his deathbed and before that even.

Sure, is there any evidence of that beside old washerwomen tales? Nope!

Pilsudski putting Smigly in the highest office in the land? nope!

He could hardly make him Marshal after his own dead. He put him in the position where he could claim it himself. Think!

Sanacyjna or not going against Germany would always be a crushing defeat lol,

I doubt it. They have screwed up badly in the department of the military preparations for which JP was personally responsible.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
13 Jun 2017 #19
Do you think the Soviets would have even invaded if the Polish Army was waging a guerilla war against the Germans?

I don't know what they would do IF the Polish Army stopped German invasion if given different, better military leadership. Hard to tell, My gut feeling from knowing soviet mentality intimately - yes they would.


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