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Was the holocaust by Germans in Poland the worse genocide in history?


king_krakus
22 Apr 2015 #181
yeah course, that is why the western world should finally realise that they will either treat everyone equally.. and if they really want to attack the Poles for the crimes of a 100 people or less.. then they should also attack the Jews for being in gestapo, serving in the polizei etc.. otherwise, if theres one nation that has a cloak of security from any such defamation then I say leave the Poles alone as well.

What Comey said is an absurd, but I guess I can understand him, many Americans are mentally challenged, 56% illiteracy etc .. :)
jon357 74 | 21,935
22 Apr 2015 #182
then they should also attack the Jews for being in gestapo, serving in the polizei etc

Enough have and do, not that the Gestapo was exactly teeming with Jewish people - one has only to read some of the stuff on here and elsewhere smeared around the internet like an H Block dirty protest...

many Americans are mentally challenged, 56% illiteracy etc .. :)

A little more than 56%, unless you're talking about full literacy however yes, some of them do have an odd view of Europe.
Vox - | 175
22 Apr 2015 #183
Thanks for that article, you clearly think that there's a lot to it if you suggest we read it.

Actually I didn't, must have been a mod.

I disagree with his assessment of what Comey actually said.

I know and you disagree because you are crooked not for any other reason. I have quoted his words to show you that even people who are not very sympathetic towards Poland noticed Comey blunder.

I care as much about what Polonia think as more than a few members of Polonia care about accuracy in history.

You don't care about accuracy in history. You care about your own interpretation of history.

Vox, you make it seem as if the Jews volunteered out of willingness

Those Jews who volunteered to the Ghetto Police volunteered out of willingness to cut the best deal for themselves. Nobody forced them and there were no punishment for not joining.

Poland too must come clean and admit her sometimes complicit involvement in the Shoah.

You seem to be working under a false premise that a common ethnic background equals collective responsibility. The way of thought resembles the lines along the Nazis had been thinking. In fact society as a whole cannot be held collectively responsible for crimes some individuals committed even if they are a part of that society.

In Poland there were no organized political, social, paramilitary or military force that planed or carried out extermination of the Jews. There wasn't a Polish organization big or small that assisted Nazi Germany in carrying out their plans against Jews.

There were individuals, who would sell out Jews in hiding to Germans or criminals who preyed on Jews.
It seems that at the time only Poles cared about their Jews. A Polish underground organization send time after time missives to the allied governments about fate of the Jews. They were hardly believed and none cared enough to do something about it. Even American Jews closed their ears to plea for an intervention on the behalf of the Polish Jews.

that the post-War pogroms

Post-war pogroms do not belong in the thread about Holocaust.
jon357 74 | 21,935
22 Apr 2015 #184
Those Jews who volunteered to the Ghetto Police volunteered out of willingness to cut the best deal for themselves

Like they had soooo many choices in life. Being Jews during the Holocaust and all that...

There were individuals, who would sell out Jews in hiding to Germans or criminals who preyed on Jews

You forgot those who refused to let Holocaust survivors back into their own houses and flats.

Post-war pogroms do not belong in the thread about Holocaust.

Given that the ink was barely dry on the surrender document and thousands still not home from the camps yet at the time of the Kielce Pogrom, yes, they do.
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
23 Apr 2015 #185
Vox, you seem not to understand sufficiently the history on which you pretend to expound! Jews did indeed do what was expedient in a number of cases. So too the Germans. It was called becoming a Nazi, i.e. joining the party even if one didn't necessarily believe everything Hitler espoused!!! A large number of Poles merely jumped on the very lucrative bandwagon of self profiteering and to be sure got plenty out of the deal.

This is not to say that there were not a lot of right-minded and selfless Poles who hid Jews, asked for nothing in return and risked their own lives as well as those of both the hidden and their families:-)

@
Vox, ol' fella, if post-War pogroms don't belong in a thread about the Holocaust, where then, pray tell??

I use basic examples as instances of the Polish mentality vis-a-vis Jews living in their midst, and in their country, AFTER WORLD WAR II! Was it necessary to round up stray Jews, herd them together into an abandoned barn and burn them?!

Don't see how ya can riggle outta that one:-)
Harry
23 Apr 2015 #186
the Polish mentality vis-a-vis Jews living in their midst, and in their country

You can't talk about 'the Polish mentality with regard to Jews'. You can talk about the mentality which some Poles had with regard to Jews, you can talk about the mentality which many Poles had with regard to Jews, you could even make claims as to the mentality which most Poles had with regard to Jews; but it is entirely wrong to claim that there was 'the Polish mentality towards Jews' or that there is 'the Polish mentality towards Jews' or that there ever will be 'the Polish mentality towards Jews'.
jon357 74 | 21,935
23 Apr 2015 #187
You can't talk about 'the Polish mentality with regard to Jews'

Indeed. Poland has always had a huge range of opinions and a diverse set of hotly debated views.
Jasionowka2 - | 6
23 Apr 2015 #188
Please be clear the holocaust was meant to be the beginning of the story not the end. The Germans planned after exterminating Jews to exterminate all Poles (apart from those that could be Germanized). This was called the Ostplan. German Nazism was a disease that wanted to kill Jews first and then ALL Poles. Any attempts to stir up hatred between Jews and Poles is an old trick used by many. Jews and Poles lived together for hundreds of years and the German plan was to kill all of us eventually!
Vox - | 175
25 Apr 2015 #189
Vox, you seem not to understand sufficiently the history on which you pretend to expound!

Lyzko, please understand a single uppermost important fact, all what you have been presenting here cannot be really called a history. It is a "bastardised" version of the history. A product of decades of unopposed mythography, lies and granny stories being told and retold all over again and taken on face value without conducting any scientific research of the subject and hence without any real evidence to back it all up - colossus with legs of clay.

Vox, ol' fella, if post-War pogroms don't belong in a thread about the Holocaust, where then, pray tell??

Lyzko, dear friend, post-war pogroms belong in a thread about post-war pogroms of course.

use basic examples as instances of the Polish mentality vis-a-vis Jews living in their midst, and in their country, AFTER WORLD WAR II! Was it necessary to round up stray Jews, herd them together into an abandoned barn and burn them?!Don't see how ya can riggle outta that one:-)

Lyzko, would you be so kind and remind me when and where AFTER WORLD WAR II Jews were herded into a barn and burned?
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
25 Apr 2015 #190
Look up/google search Jedwabne and Kielce, buddy! If you know how to read, you'll understand perfectly:-) Once again, you're entitled to your own opinions, but NOT to your own factsLOL
national
25 Apr 2015 #191
Do you know how to read żydku?If so,you check the FACTS regarding Jedwabne as whatever happened there happened DURING the war!

you're entitled to your own opinions, but NOT to your own factsLOL

And so are you! Just because you żydki keep repeating your lies it don't make them facts.
Vox - | 175
25 Apr 2015 #192
Look up/google search Jedwabne and Kielce, buddy! If you know how to read, you'll understand perfectly:-) Once again, you're entitled to your own opinions, but NOT to your own factsLOL

Lyzko, would you be so kind and remind me when and where AFTER WORLD WAR II Jews were herded into a barn and burned? If you are not able to do it just admit it.

And so are you! Just because you żydki keep repeating your lies it don't make them facts.

Is that you Lzyko? lol!
Dumnyzyd
25 Apr 2015 #193
To vox it seems Lzyko is confusing Jedwabne and Kielce as you well know. As for you national you are falling for Pole baiting by this American and his comments. It is boringly predictable how for hundreds of years Jews and Poles can insult each other once an outsider stirs things up. Wake up everyone! there were and are good Poles and Bad Poles and good Jews and bad Jews. Terrible things happened when people killed their neighbours and also there were stories of heroism and people saving their neighbours. One thing is historical fact. The Germans planned to exterminate us all Jews and Poles we were all labelled undesirable sub-humans. Once the holocaust was over the Ostplan called for murder of all Poles. It is sad and a sad reflection on all of us that after hundreds of years together we so easily turn on each other, like fighting dogs with the outsiders watching and laughing.
Guest
26 Apr 2015 #194
Whilst the major German extermination camps were located in Poland as were the 3 million Polish Jews killed the name of this thread somehow seems to suggest that all of the holocaust took place in Poland. This is not true. There were camps in Germany, Czechoslovakia etc and we must not forget the horrors that took place in Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Belorussia, Ukraine where over 1.5 million Jews were killed.
jon357 74 | 21,935
26 Apr 2015 #195
Yes, Gosc, you are right. The sad thing is though that the camps set up elsewhere, although foul, were often labour camps, transit camps etc and differed hugely from places like Treblinka, Birkenau etc which were set up purely as factories of death. Thsee places were built by the Germans in Poland because they'd found that the Einsatzgruppen couldn't kill people in enough volume and in any case it was very hard to get people willing to do that work.
Bieganski 17 | 890
26 Apr 2015 #196
Comey's actual comment made no reference to the country of Poland, only to some people from Poland

As explained to you many times now he mentioned Poland by name but did not identify a single Polish person he could say was a murderer or accomplice during The Holocaust.

Sawoniuk joining a non-Polish SS unit has no effect at all on the fact that he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.

Sawoniuk joined the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) which was composed of Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian speaking volunteers. Polish is very different from these other languages. Sawoniuk grew up as a poor peasant as well. Only in your mind is it possible that a poor Belarusian peasant in a predominately Yiddish speaking region would be completely fluent in Polish as well as Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian. That or you seriously believe the Germans who were in combat operations nearly 800 km east of Berlin would have gone out of their way to accommodate Sawoniuk and find a Polish interpreter just for him while he served as a lowly ranking foot soldier. Was diversity and cultural sensitivity a hiring goal of the SS? I never heard they needed to fill an Affirmative Action quota for ethnic Poles in the German Army.

He was born in Poland as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen and grew up in Poland as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.

You haven't proven at all that he was ethnically Polish or a Polish citizen. Tell you what, show us his birth certificate and other official papers from the time showing that he was Polish by ethnicity and citizenship. And then explain why any Polish speaking Polish citizen in a predominately Yiddish speaking region with a minority Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian local population which was resolutely hostile to Poles would go and join the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) rather than the Polish Home Army or other Polish partisan units right at the outset of the war.

Are you really so desperate to excuse Sawoniuk that you want to claim the Polish Army falsified its records? Or perhaps you want to repeat Sawoniuk's claim that the evidence against him as a KGB plot?

You are the desperate one here. Because believing the absurdity that a Belarusian speaking SS soldier could admit to serving the enemy which destroyed and occupied Poland and would still be allowed to join the Polish Army would give you the tenuous connection you are drooling to get so you can claim that Poland as an underground state was involved in war crimes via Sawoniuk.

Here are the facts:

The 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) was deployed to France . It was ineffective in combat, was plagued with insubordination and desertions, and was soon disbanded. Again, his so-called Polish Army record is highly suspect. It was inadmissible at his trial. Sawoniuk himself denied any association with the SS and said the Polish document was a fake.

So is this memo of him being in the SS from a genuine Polish Army personnel file or is it from some other official document? It is an important distinction.

Sawoniuk may have had contact with Polish troops in France but that doesn't mean he enlisted. He may have simply been questioned about his reason for being there. Even so it is highly implausible that the Polish Army wouldn't have detained him on this admission of him serving in the SS. Worse would be allowing him to join their Polish Army ranks in spite of it.

Again, we are talking about a Belarusian peasant foot soldier and not some high level intelligence asset who would have been debriefed by the Polish Army.

If he had contact with the Polish Army he could have said he was a refugee passing through France on his way to Britain. When he arrived in Britain he would have had the incentive to change his story to say he served in the Polish Army if he saw that it would improve his chances of staying and becoming a fellow citizen of yours which he did.

This makes sense in light that his SS unit broke-up in France and it would have been too dangerous at that point for a deserter like him to return to his native Belarusian lands since he would have had to cross through Nazi Germany as well as occupied Poland.

Thanks for that source, even that source says he was Polish.

No it doesn't say he was Polish. It said he liked to dress smartly like a Polish soldier. Obviously he had a tortured love/hate relationship with Poles just like you do.

Because he was a scumbag: he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen

You don't need to be so blatant about your hostility toward Poles, Harry. Everyone on here already knows your resentment of Poles. Indeed, lesser men always end up hating their betters because deep down they know no matter what they do in life they will never become an equal.

Evidence which included multiple witness statements of a crime...i.e. active participation in mass murder,

Hajda was never charged with any war crimes as I explained many times now to you. In the end he became stateless over an immigration matter.

It's pretty sickening that you so badly want to hold onto your fantasy in which no ethnically Polish Polish citizens participated in the holocaust that you seek to excuse and defend ethnically Polish Polish citizens who were found by repeated court verdicts to have participated in the holocaust.

An angry riposte full of spurious claims, laughable conjecture, and sanctimonious cant.
Polonius3 994 | 12,380
26 Apr 2015 #197
It's all about opportunity and survival. Amid the horrors of war and other disasters, survival is the overriding goal -- survival of oneself and one's family, in third place maybe at least a few possessions. All nationalities subjected to such circumstances behave similarly, and victims can easily become victimisers when the opportunity presents itself.

Take Jedwabne or, in an extended sense, all of the eastern half of Poland annexed by Uncle Joe in collusion with Uncle Adolf. Bolshevised young Jews (naturally constituting only a fraction of the Jewish population) were amongst the more visible locals welcoming the invading Red Army in 1939. Belarusians and some ethnic Poles were amongst the welcomers, but they were less visible in terms of dress, physiognomy, speech, etc. Some of these young radical pro-Soviet Jews immediately donned red arm-bands, declared themselves to be a "workers' militia" and reported prominent Polish officials, politicians, policemen and other associated with free Poland to the NKVD. In Nowogródek Jewish militia shot Polish soldiers in the back during the Soviet invasion of 1939 and its immediate aftermath. Does that make them evil? From an objective point of you - of course not. They were simply taking advantage of an historical opportunity in their quest for survival and advancement. After all, Stalin had claimed that communism was the wave of the future, so they felt safe to do what they did. After all, weren't they on the progressive side of history?

Comes June 1941 and the tables turn. Komsomol members, including many young Jews, are now hunted down by local Poles for the 22 months of Stalin's Soviet hell to which they had been subjected. Many of their loved ones had been shipped off to Siberia and Central Asia in cattle trucks after being fingered by the young Jewish radicals. (The NKVD couldn't have known who is who without their willing assistance.) Some Polish Jedwabians agree to do the barn-burning thing or otherwise persecute and rob Jews. Probably they had all heard of the 1,000-year Reich predicted by the moustache bloke, so they felt a sense of impunity as had the Jews under Soviet occupation. The thing is no-one ever really knows how things will turn out until they become history. And only one thing is certain: war brutalises everyone regardless of nationality, race, creed and ideology.
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
26 Apr 2015 #198
Jedwabne was separate from Kielce! I and everyone here knows that. In the former, the Jews were burned in an abandoned farmhouse. In the latter, they were massacred.

Same difference:-)

Also, I'm not Poland bashing. I love Chopin and Moniuszko, as well as Mickiewicz same as the next person. I also see the horror behind the beauty!
Vox - | 175
26 Apr 2015 #199
Jedwabne was separate from Kielce! I and everyone here knows that

Everyone except for you:

use basic examples as instances of the Polish mentality vis-a-vis Jews living in their midst, and in their country, AFTER WORLD WAR II! Was it necessary to round up stray Jews, herd them together into an abandoned barn and burn them?!

Few days later you are backpedaling to hide your ignorance, too late.
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
27 Apr 2015 #200
Shoe's on the other foot, sonny boy!! Your ignorance is frightening; your prejudice even more so:-)
Harry
27 Apr 2015 #201
You haven't proven at all that he was ethnically Polish or a Polish citizen.

I've provided numerous sources proving he was a Polish citizen. You have provided none to support your claim ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was Belarussian.

Interestingly, ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was still using his Polish nationality as late as 2001, as is evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights:

The applicant [Sawoniuk] is a Polish national, born in 1921 and currently serving a sentence of life imprisonment in HM Prison Gartree.

hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-5878

Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk came from a Polish family: "He came from a poor Polish family"
theguardian.com/uk/1999/feb/10/nickhopkins1

Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk's mother was Polish: "His Polish mother worked washing clothes for the town's Jewish families."
independent.co.uk/news/nazis-hired-killer-who-lay-low-for-50-years-1084566.html

Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk self-identified as Polish: "Sawoniuk, born in 1921, described himself as Polish. He was one of the ethnic minorities which made up about ten per cent of the town's population."

Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was a Polish native: "Polish native gets life terms in England for war crimes" articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-04-02/news/9904020223_1_jews-south-london-britain

show us his birth certificate

You mean the Polish birth certificate ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk used to join the Polish army?
"Sawoniuk retreated with the German army in July 1944 but used his Polish birth certificate to enrol in the Polish Free Army when it was clear the Nazi war effort was in tatters."

a Belarusian speaking SS soldier

I haven't actually seen any sources saying ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk spoke Belarussian. Would you like to present some? We know he spoke English, he gave evidence in his trial in that language; we know he spoke Polish, he was heard speaking it on the day he committed the murders he was convicted of; we even know he spoke Yiddish ("He even learnt some Yiddish from his employers."

independent.co.uk/news/into-the-evil-heart-of-history-1070832.html
But Belarussian is a new one, how about you prove a claim for once.

Worse would be allowing him to join their Polish Army ranks in spite of it.

But allow him to join the Polish army they did, as shown by the photo of ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk in Polish army uniform which the British police took away with them when they searched his flat.

Sawoniuk may have had contact with Polish troops in France but that doesn't mean he enlisted.

Both the British and European courts (and the prosecution and defense in all of those cases) agreed that ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk joined the Polish army. As the European Court of Human Rights stated "The applicant left the region in or about July 1944 when the Germans began to retreat and joined the Polish army in or about December 1944."

we are talking about a Belarusian

You might be talking about some Belarusian, I'm talking about Sawoniuk: an ethnically Polish Polish citizen who participated in the holocaust in his native Poland.

Hajda was never charged with any war crimes as I explained many times now to you. In the end he became stateless over an immigration matter.

Hajda wasn't charged with war crimes because ethnically Polish Polish citizen Hajda hadn't broken US law by taking part in the holocaust as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen in his native Poland. He became stateless because he was convicted of lying about not taking part in the holocaust. The court found that he had been a death camp guard; I wonder if you would consider that to be just 'an immigration matter' if it hadn't involved an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.
Vox - | 175
27 Apr 2015 #202
Shoe's on the other foot, sonny boy!! Your ignorance is frightening; your prejudice even more so:-)

Lyzko if you are talking to me I would advice you to look in the mirror.

I've provided numerous sources proving he was a Polish citizen.

Harry, really, what if he was Polish? So what? What would be the significance of that to you?
Harry
27 Apr 2015 #203
Harry, really, what if he was Polish? So what?

No 'if' about it: he has Polish, as was Hadja. That proves the people who claim that not even a single Pole participated in the holocaust are completely wrong, and that people such as Comey who state that Poles participated in the holocaust are, unfortunately, right.
Vox - | 175
27 Apr 2015 #204
It doesn't.
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
27 Apr 2015 #205
It does, Vox!

Clearly you're more interested in trolling than in truth, so let's cut the garbage right here and now!
Noone's saying that NO Poles participated, only that the lie that Poland was exclusively victim of the Nazis no longer holds water any more, than the myth of little Switzerland as eternal Heidiland or the poor Austrians who couldn't help bur follow Hitler etc.. ad nauseum
Bieganski 17 | 890
28 Apr 2015 #206
I've provided numerous sources proving he was a Polish citizen.

No, you provided British media sources (notorious for their anti-Polish sentiment) which only made reference but provided no proof. If the FBI director could be so smugly ignorant about Poland what makes you think the British media are 100% correct all the time?

Sawoniuk was still using his Polish nationality as late as 2001, as is evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights

No again. The source you provided made no mention that British citizen Sawoniuk was self-identifying as a Pole.

Look at the facts. British citizen Sawoniuk was born in Belarusian lands in 1921.

There is no proof of any Polish heritage or intimate exposure to Polish language and culture while he was growing up. The majority group in his village were Yiddish speaking Jews. I know in your head this passes as being 100% Polish but it isn't.

British citizen Sawoniuk joined with his fellow Belarusians along with Russians and Ukrainians to serve in the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian). The 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) was formed in 1944 making British citizen Sawoniuk 23 years old at the time. This division initially operated locally in Belarusian lands but then was quickly deployed to France.

British citizen Sawoniuk then settled in your native Britain in 1946 at the age of 25.

Fifty five years later British citizen Sawoniuk was put on trial for war crimes.

Fifty five years! British citizen Sawoniuk spent most of his life living in his British homeland! During his fifty five years as a British citizen, British citizen Sawoniuk became thoroughly assimilated into British life and culture. He became fluent in English and spent a career working for the then nationalized British Rail. This made him an employee of the British government.

You mean the Polish birth certificate...Sawoniuk used to join the Polish army?

Again, you provided British media sources (notorious for their anti-Polish sentiment) which only made reference but provided no proof.

Produce a copy of his actual birth certificate!

I haven't actually seen any sources saying...Sawoniuk spoke Belarussian. Would you like to present some?

I already did. His service in the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) is well documented and undisputed. It says it all.

But allow him to join the Polish army they did, as shown by the photo of...Sawoniuk in Polish army uniform which the British police took away with them when they searched his flat

The source you provided shows no photos at all and only mentions the presence of one in British citizen Sawoniuk's belongings. So there is no context at all. Is it a genuine Polish Army uniform? If it was then you need to realize that acts of "stolen valor" are not a 21st century phenomenon. Likewise, use of a Polish Army uniform could have been used during a false flag operation conducted while British citizen Sawoniuk was serving 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) or to strengthen his cover story and dupe British authorities into giving him British citizenship.

"The applicant left the region in or about July 1944 when the Germans began to retreat and joined the Polish army in or about December 1944."

They are recounting British citizen Sawoniuk's explanation of events prior to his immigration to your British homeland. And were is the supporting documentation from Polish government authorities to corroborate British citizen Sawoniuk's timeline of his whereabouts? Oh, that's right, there is no mention because none was given.

You might be talking about some Belarusian, I'm talking about Sawoniuk

Yes, the same guy: Belarusian-born, Belarusian speaking, British citizen Sawoniuk who convicted of committing war crimes in occupied Poland.

The court found that he had been a death camp guard

And then went no further than to strip him of his American citizenship. Wow!
Kurzer
28 Apr 2015 #207
Sawoniuk was a low-life evil scumbag whose mother was unfortunately Polish. Nobody knows who his father was, maybe Belorussian maybe even a Jewish School teacher in the town. Nobody has mentioned another evil specimen- Szymon Serafinowicz another evil murderer. Us Poles are not perfect we have evil also we are human beings and not angels. We acknowledge our demons overall in spite of the horror most acted with honour, some didn't.
Harry
28 Apr 2015 #208
No, you provided British media sources (notorious for their anti-Polish sentiment) which only made reference but provided no proof.

Oh dear, I see you have given up telling the truth in your laughable quest to prove that ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk wasn't an ethnically Polish Polish citizen. Or perhaps you can explain in what way the European Court of Human Rights is a British media source?

hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-5878 makes it clear "The applicant [Sawoniuk] is a Polish national, born in 1921"

No again. The source you provided made no mention that British citizen Sawoniuk was self-identifying as a Pole.

The European Court of Human Rights does not say that Sawoniuk was a British citizen; they say "The applicant [Sawoniuk] is a Polish national". Notice that present tense there?

Sawoniuk was born in Belarusian lands in 1921.

Are you really so deep into the realms of fantasy that you now claim parts of interbellum Poland were not Polish? Oh well, given that you think all British media sources are wrong, let's go back to what the European Court of Human Rights makes clear "Until 1939, Domachevo was in Poland." So ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was born in Poland.

There is no proof of any Polish heritage

That's your fantasy. In reality ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk's only known parent was Polish and ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk identified as Polish right up until at least 2001.

Again, you provided British media sources (notorious for their anti-Polish sentiment) which only made reference but provided no proof.

I refer you to p. 278 of Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust by Michael J. Bazyler and Frank M. Tuerkheimer: "Using his Polish birth certificate, Sawoniuk enlisted in the Polish Free Army, which fought alongside the British and against the Germans. He served briefly in Egypt and Italy before sailing with his regiment to Glasgow, arriving on British soil on June 27, 1946". books.google.co.uk/books?id=mQKhBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA278

Do feel very free to accuse Bazyler and Tuerkheimer of being 'notorious for their anti-Polish sentiment' but note that "Michael J. Bazyler is Professor of Law and The "1939" Society Law Scholar in Holocaust and Human Rights Studies at the Dale E. Fowler School of Law, Chapman University. Frank M. Tuerkheimer is a trial lawyer and Professor of Law Emeritus at the University of Wisconsin. ... He had previously been a federal prosecutor in New York, United States Attorney in Madison, Wisconsin, and an Associate Special Watergate Prosecutor in Washington." nyupress.org/books/9781479886067/ I expect they have a quite good knowledge of libel law.

During his fifty five years as a British citizen

I see you are also using fantasy maths: ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk became a British citizen in 1956 (books.google.co.uk/books?id=mQKhBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA278). He died in 2005. Although he appears to have stopped using his British citizenship no later than 2001, as can be seen by the way that the European Court of Human Rights said in that year "The applicant [Sawoniuk] is a Polish national". Probably he hated his British citizenship: if he hadn't been granted that citizenship, he couldn't have been prosecuted by the British for participating in the holocaust.

I haven't actually seen any sources saying...Sawoniuk spoke Belarussian. Would you like to present some?
I already did. His service in the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) is well documented and undisputed.

Yet more of your fantasy: in reality it is not well documented (the only documents of it are the Polish army record you reject - because it proves Sawoniuk spoke Polish like the ethnically Polish Polish citizen he was - and an SS AWOL record; how bizarre that you consider SS records to be indisputable but Polish records to be suspicious) and is very much disputed - nobody has ever testified that Sawoniuk was in the SS, the only court testimony given was that he was never in the SS. Fortunately there was plenty of eye-witness testimony to nail ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk for taking part in the holocaust.

And even if we accept that he was in that SS unit, even you yourself say that the unit was composed of Belarusians, Russians and Ukrainians, so serving in it in no way proves that ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was Belarussian or spoke that language.

Likewise, use of a Polish Army uniform could have been used during a false flag operation conducted while British citizen Sawoniuk was serving 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) or to strengthen his cover story and dupe British authorities into giving him British citizenship.

Given that ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk served with the Free Polish army on two continents and had a full Polish army record, he really didn't need a photo of himself in a Polish army uniform, but thanks for sharing yet more of your fantasies with us.

Belarusian-born, Belarusian speaking, British citizen Sawoniuk who convicted of committing war crimes in occupied Poland.

Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was born in Poland to Polish mother and was a Polish citizen from birth to death. Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was only convicted of war crimes because he had become a British citizen, otherwise he couldn't have been prosecuted under British law and other cases very much suggest that Poland wouldn't have prosecuted ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk for the crimes he committed in Poland against his fellow Poles.

Yiddish speaking Jews. I know in your head this passes as being 100% Polish but it isn't.

Only in the racist fantasies of fortunately fewer 'people' every year can Jews not be Polish.

Harry: The court found that he had been a death camp guard

And then went no further than to strip him of his American citizenship. Wow!

As has been explained to you a number of times ethnically Polish Polish citizen Hadja could only have been prosecuted by the courts of your homeland for breaking the laws of your homeland. Being an ethnically Polish Polish citizen who took part in the holocaust was not, and shockingly is not, a crime under the laws of your homeland.
Seweryn
29 Apr 2015 #209
trailer of an Animated documentary movie about crimes against Polish Nation during II World War.

youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BaeyKKkMM&feature=youtu.be
R.U.R.
29 Apr 2015 #210
Harry :
Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was born in Poland to Polish mother and was a Polish citizen from birth to death.

[/quote]
His citizenship proves nothing, if citizenship is so important then let's blame the country that granted that citizenship instead . In fact, this is exactly what our Jewish friends (ha ha) do here with their great eastern passion .

Sawoniuk is certainly not a Polish surname, such surnames ending with -iuk are mostly Ukrainian and are very popular In the Ukraine, these surnames are not so popular in Byelorussia but they are noticeable there. The surnames with -iuk/uk endings are very rare in Poland, which shows that the people with such surnames have eastern Slavic or Jewish origin (I have known Ukrainian Jews bearing such surnames with -iuk/uk endings )

Harry :
Sawoniuk spoke Polish like the ethnically Polish Polish citizen he was

The region where he was born was bilingual or trilingual (including Russian or four-lingual if we add some Yiddish speaking Jews ).
So his knowledge of the Polish language proves nothing.
By the way, Poland didn't have any influence on the region for more than a century where this Polish Polish was born including its anti Jewish atmosphere, in which this Polish Polish was brought up. Maybe the Jews of the region were not so innocent ( just to refresh your memory, see the end of the post) or what ? Maybe your Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu was right saying that the Holocaust was divine punishment meted out to Jews ? Punishment for what ?

Harry :
In reality ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk's only known parent was Polish and ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk identified as Polish right up until at least 2001.

In reality, the fact (if it is a real fact ) that Sawoniuk's only known parent was Polish makes him only half Polish right up until this moment .

Harry :
suggest that Poland wouldn't have prosecuted ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk for the crimes he committed in Poland against his fellow Poles.

Well, Harry , don't be so ridiculous here. I have had more than enough of your nonsense.
Most Jews consciously chose not to assimilate into Polish society, many Jews in Poland couldn't even speak the Polish language at the time (only about 8% could, see Google books : Poland, 1918-1945: An Interpretive and Documentary History of the Second Republic by Peter Stachura.) and did everything possible and impossible (INCLUDING KILLING POLES ) to oppose the the re-recreation of the independent Polish state in 1918. and very unwillingly found themselves in that Polish State. It was thanks to Jews that Poland didn't gain full control of Gdansk and Silesia.

These facts were very well described by our great historian Felks Koneczny in his book titled JEWISH CIVILIZATION ( CYWILIZACJA ZYDOWSKA. Chapter Judeopolonia 393 ), but are completely unknown to you, which makes your speechifying here very ridiculous indeed.

By the way, according to F. Koneczny, THE JEWS DO NOT BELONG TO THE EUROPEAN CIVILIZATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN JEWISH CIVILIZATION. So, Harry, your numerous attempts to present the Jews as Europeans here on PF are very ridiculous as well.

And one more thing : Koneczny points out that European scientists began to study the Jews and the Jewish civilization long before Jewish scientists preoccupied with this subject.

So, we know our dear Jewish friends much better than they know themselves .

The items mentioned above only prove that some are completely exotic to the region known as Eastern and Central Europe, though they feel themselves the most at home in the region

No doubt the time has come for us to remind our dear Jewish friends about the Jewish crimes committed in Europe
(from Russia to Germany via Ukraine, Hungary, Poland etc) by Leon Trocky, Bela Kun, Tibor Szamuely,
Zemlachka, Genrikh Jagoda, Beria, Józef Światło ( Izaak Fleischfarb ) etc etc etc.

"As for us, we were never concerned with the Kantian-priestly and vegetarian-Quaker prattle about the "sacredness of human life". We were revolutionaries in opposition, and have remained revolutionaries in power. To make the individual sacred, we must destroy the social order which crucifies him. And that problem can only be solved by blood and iron"

- Leon Trocky, Krasnaya Zvezda, 1942.

"The Bolshevik Revolution and some of its aftermath represented, from one perspective, Jewish revenge. "

- Norman Cantor The Jewish Experience, 1996.

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