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Was the holocaust by Germans in Poland the worse genocide in history?


TheOther 6 | 3,674
18 Apr 2015 #121
The Nazi Holocaust however had the sole distinction of being the most methodically documented, carried out with nearly the complete support of the German population

Until you show me a source that clearly demonstrates that the vast majority of the German population knew about the extermination camps in the east, I call BS on that.
JollyRomek 7 | 480
18 Apr 2015 #122
Haha, now you say that you're Polish? Don't make me laugh. You speak Polish "troche" but you are a Pole. Oh my...

When did I ever make such a claim? On the contrary, in another thread I have made it pretty clear that I am German although my mother is Polish and my father is French. I have never, in any way, said anything that would contradict the fact that my passport is German and that I do feel that I am German even if I am the only one in my family.

How you get to the understanding that I claim to be Polish after my comment -

Exactly! And you said -

- is simply beyond me. You can of course write "HAHAHAHA" in capital letters to try to get the audience on your side but it does not change the fact that I have never claimed to be Polish nor will i ever claim to be Polish,

All I have to do is check random articles about it or comment s in the Polish internet. Or just ask people around me.

Yes and I am sure that the people around you would be all too happy to admit the wrong doing of Poles in the Holocaust...........
jon357 74 | 21,935
18 Apr 2015 #123
The ritual murder stuff's right out of the Middle Ages, mister! You excuse fellow Poles involved in the Kielce affair for being just ignorant slobs who grew up with hostility to Jews as with their own mother's milk??? I'd think a condemnation and call for re-thinking past brutalities would be a more appropriate response:-)

Indeed. Those people murdered by locals, all of them (unless you can reliably claim otherwise) Poles, in the 1948 pogrom were guilty of nothing. But all to often we find people trying to explain it away or deny a Polish role at all. Jedwabne is a classic example.

Even the UK had it's own "Hitler" but when he became too dangerous he was arrested and locked away. I just can't remember his name at the moment.

.
Sir Oswald Moseley, largely a figure of fun like Nick Griffin and just as despised. Wodehouse based a comic character on him. He wasn't locked away for being too dangerous, just interned with other potential sympathisers at the start of the war. I think they let him out when he promised to behave.

The British gov't though has a habit of forgiving past crimes. As I remember, there were about 150 Polish SS members who later received forgiveness and joined BAOR. Their names are on record at Kew.

All I have to do is check random articles about it or comment s in the Polish internet. Or just ask people around me.

So "random articles" in Polish give neutral and objective opinions devoid of any pro-Polish bias and "people around" you are all historians from different countries with a balanced consensus? Come off it!
JollyRomek 7 | 480
18 Apr 2015 #124
. He wasn't locked away for being too dangerous, just interned with other potential sympathisers at the start of the war.

Yes, he is the one i meant. Thanks jon.

Interned / locked away. It's the same thing isn't it? He became dangerous and the British government knew that he posed a thread. They locked him away as a pre-caution.

Not a bad thing. The Germans should have given Hitler the sentence he deserved and kept him locked up for the rest of his days instead of letting him go after a "spa retreat" in a Bavarian prison.
Adria
18 Apr 2015 #125
the orders in ALL cases were given by the German

but carried out by the Poles, Ukrainians etc. If we take the Ukrainians for example, a lot of them have willingly signed up to the SS. The orders may have been given by the Germans but it was the Ukrainians and also the Latvians (as an example for the Baltic troops in the SS) who enthusiastically joined the SS to follow those orders.

What do you mean by that? There were some Polish pogroms, but the vast majority of the Jews in Poland were killed by the Germans.

In general, we can only hope that something as the Holocaust will never repeat itself. But in order for that to happen, we have to openly deal with our past, as painful as it may be. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary have done very well in their attempt to deal with their part of that period of time.

And what have they done?
JollyRomek 7 | 480
18 Apr 2015 #126
but the vast majority of the Jews in Poland were killed by the Germans.

How would you know? Is there a record of which country the guard was from who locked the door to the gas chamber and which country the member of the SS was from who dropped the gas from above?

And what have they done?

When you bother to register on this forum as a member I might.........
jon357 74 | 21,935
18 Apr 2015 #127
Interned / locked away. It's the same thing isn't it?

Same thing but a different reason. He wasn't especially dangerous by then (one big worry was that he might escape abroad and start broadcasting) and his support base in fact was falling away even before he was interned. He was more a figure of fun than a threat by that stage however during a war, no chances are taken. Poland didn't have the chance (or the level of organizational ability) to avoid those risks, having been invaded.

Not a bad thing. The Germans should have given Hitler the sentence he deserved and kept him locked up for the rest of his days instead of letting him go after a "spa retreat" in a Bavarian prison.

Indeed. Like AH, Moseley had some fairly influential supporters especially in his early days however conditions were radically different at the start of WW2 in the UK and early Weimar days in Germany. Moseley went into Wormwood Scrubs however he and his wife were given a house in the grounds since they weren't guilty of anything. No statues to him fortunately, however in Warsaw there's a monument even now to his Polish equivalent and very fortunate really that so few Brits had the chance to collaborate in genocide. Some sad stories about people in occupied countries. The Wladislaw Dering case in Poland is a particularly complicated one. Have you read the Leon Uris fictionalization of it?
Adria
18 Apr 2015 #128
How would you know? Is there a record of which country the guard was from who locked the door to the gas chamber and which country the member of the SS was from who dropped the gas from above?

JollyRomek

There are books written by historians... for example. Maybe you should read them, instead of making guesses. Btw. there were no Polish SS, einsatzgruppen, and death camps were not staffed by Poles. Is that news for you?

When you bother to register on this forum as a member I might....

I'm not going to waste my time. You simply have no clue what's going on in Poland.
Haylel
18 Apr 2015 #129
JollyRomek,

I wrote "I speak as a native Pole" you answer to it as "Exactly - as you said" as for me it meant that you said that you were Polish like me. Considering the fact that you wrote that you speak Polish "troche" made it very funny because I understood that you claimed to be Polish. Moreover, I have ready met a few foreigners here who pretended to be Polish. Isn't is obvious, right now? You should have written it differently and I would not have a problem with it.

You know what? It is a bit hipocritical when I see German pointing out Polish "wrong doings" in the Holocaust. If there were any terrible Polish wrong doings during the Holocaust we would definitely acknowledge them. And mind that I refer only to Holocaust right now.

So "random articles" in Polish give neutral and objective opinions devoid of any pro-Polish bias and "people around" you are all historians from different countries with a balanced consensus? Come off it!

Random articles and comments - for seeing what Poles think about this whole "Polish wrong doings" in Holocaust. Objective opinions? Opinions of Polish people themselves on this issue. Who needs foreign historians when it comes to opinions? Opinion, everyone has own!
JollyRomek 7 | 480
18 Apr 2015 #130
Moreover, I have ready met a few foreigners here who pretended to be Polish

Who you met and what they pretended to be is not my problem to be perfectly honest with you. I believe that I have made it very clear where I am from on numerous occasions.
jon357 74 | 21,935
18 Apr 2015 #131
Who needs foreign historians when it comes to opinions?

So in fact you're trying to say that the narrative surrounding the holocaust should be dominated by a Polish point(s) of view to the exclusion of all other.

There are books written by historians... for example. Maybe you should read them, instead of making guesses.

I suspect, Paulina, that as a German, he has received a more thorough and balanced grounding in the terrible historical facts of that period than most - a history that in Germany they as a nation do not try to obfuscate nor from which do they try to absolve any of their citizens' complicity.
Haylel
18 Apr 2015 #132
I believe that I have made it very clear where I am from on numerous occasions.

I would say: these "numerous occasions" are not my problem, to be perfectly honest with you. I don't follow your posts.

No need to speak about it anymore. You made it clear where you're from.

So in fact you're trying to say that the narrative surrounding the holocaust should be dominated by a Polish point(s) of view to the exclusion of all other.

No, I didn't try to say that. You just did.
JollyRomek 7 | 480
18 Apr 2015 #133
You simply have no clue what's going on in Poland.

Sure. I am oblivious to what is going on around me here in Poland :-)

I'm not going to waste my time.

If you don't want to waste your time, then please also respect my time. Of course it is easier without registering your username. You can come up with a new name every day and never fear to have to provide any backup to the nonsense that you write.
jon357 74 | 21,935
18 Apr 2015 #134
I didn't try to say that

Your exact words were:

Who needs foreign historians when it comes to opinions?

Sure. I am oblivious to what is going on around me here in Poland :-)

Quite. And 'Adria' (her style of writing is soooo recognizable, but at least her posts under that name are much shorter than usual) is doubtless aware of the range of diverse opinions within Poland. Not everyone tries to shy away from the issue.
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
18 Apr 2015 #135
DerAndere,

Although perhaps not the majority of Germans knew about the camps, a sufficient number living near and around, knew all too well.

It's the same anywhere. All it takes for evil to take root is for good people to do nothing.

And that's exactly what happened. Furthermore, in much of society at large, only the rarest of rare exceptions will risk it all for
a stranger because it's the right thing to do. If most Germans didn't even pay lip service to the incomparable evils of Hitler, to expect them to have done the "Christian" thing's expecting just a bit too much, don't you agree?
Haylel
18 Apr 2015 #136
Your exact words were: Who needs foreign historians when it comes to opinions?

So? What is the problem here? Still haven't bothered to see the context, have you? Or maybe you don't know the definition of the word "opinion".
Lyzko 45 | 9,288
18 Apr 2015 #137
Hayel, we're all of us entitled to our own opinion, but NOT to our own facts:-)!!!
jon357 74 | 21,935
18 Apr 2015 #138
Although perhaps not the majority of Germans knew about the camps, a sufficient number living near and around, knew all too well.

Yes. Remember though that some of the camps situated in Poland/former Poland were built for one specific purpose whereas those in Germany tended to house a huge variety of people and more to the point had a way out as well as just a way in. Most Germans knew little or nothing about the ultimate fate of their Jewish friends and neighbours - they either really did think they'd been resettled somewhere in the East or had darker suspicions (the brutality of the regime and the existence of Dachau were known) that they had no safe way of finding the truth about. The Nazis ruled by terror as totalitarian governments so often do.

Hayel, we're all of us entitled to our own opinion, but NOT to our own facts:-)!!!

Spot on.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
18 Apr 2015 #139
All it takes for evil to take root is for good people to do nothing.

If you have a choice, that is. The Nazis were not democratically elected, as you might know. It's always easy to demand the "good people doing the Christian thing" if you don't have to live under such a terror regime yourself. Mao, Pol Pot, ISIS, Stalin, Hitler ... they all have one thing in common: once they were in control, opposition from within was almost impossible and the slaughter began.

a sufficient number living near and around, knew all too well.

See Jon's answer in #169
Vox - | 175
19 Apr 2015 #140
The reason that I'm unaware of any Nazi death camps in France is that there were never any there. All of the death camps and concentration camps with a death camp element were located in what is now Poland.

I don't know what you are talking about. A topic of the debate is

FBI Director James B. Comey Blames Poland for The Holocaust

.
Your individuals Poles allegedly taking part in the Holocaust do not even come into the picture. If you want debate them and the eastern bunny start a new topic. You seems to be obsessed with Poles and their alleged participation in the holocausts, just stop it. Lets talk about a prominent US. government official slandering an allied country.

Would you care to quote me in any way slandering Poland? Or is that just yet another of the things that exists only in your head?

Reread your posts and you will find it there. Comey named Poland next to Germany as a main perpetrator of the Holocaust. You went straight to talk about Poles taking part in the Holocaust and about death camps without clearly declaring your position on his words.

It is clear that you agree with him or you are so obsessed with your fetish topic that you do not care about anything else as long as you can indulge yourself posting about it like something possessed.

Even as late as several years ago, a Jewish acquaintance of mine from Warsaw, having recently returned to Poland, remarked that Polish Jews don't usually let on that they're Jews,for fear of having their car tires slashed!!! This was in 2009.

Are you sure it wasn't your friend grandma? It just sounds like one of those stories a grandma would tell.

Yes, but these were not on Polish territory and it is my understanding that the concentration camps on Polish soil are the subject of discussion here, no?

No, the subject od discussion is an US. official slandering Poland.

but carried out by the Poles, Ukrainians etc.

Yeah sure keep telling yourself that buddy.
Even if that would have been the truth (it is not) it wouldn't change a thing. It wouldn't have erased German responsibility for the Holocaust.

The fact that Poland didn't have a puppet gov't. installed by the Nazis such as Vichy France, Horthy's Hungary, Seyss-

You seems to be in some confusion as to what whats and which government was legal at the time. For example French government as well as Hungarian were both perfectly legal, and there was an unquestionable popular support for Hitler in Austria. Iron Guard was a political fraction of the Romanian political stratum - none were installed by the Nazi.

Also I would advise you to take a look at the German map of the region in 1942 and try to find Poland, if you can.
JollyRomek 7 | 480
19 Apr 2015 #141
Yeah sure keep telling yourself that buddy.

So, are you saying that the Ukrainian guards did not carry out the orders given by their German officers? You do know what it meant to disobey orders in the SS, don't you?

Even if that would have been the truth (it is not) it wouldn't change a thing. It wouldn't have erased German responsibility for the Holocaust.

Nobody has ever said that Germany wasn't responsible for the Holocaust.
Vox - | 175
19 Apr 2015 #142
Yes and I am sure that the people around you would be all too happy to admit the wrong doing of Poles in the Holocaust...........

Why would he admit to anything? So it would add credibility to your attempts at whitewashing Germans by blaming everybody else around?
--------------------------------
You seem to be working under a false premise that a common ethnic background equals collective responsibility. The way of thought resembles the lines along the Nazis had been thinking.

Civilized people do not think in that way and if you are robbed by a German you can demand compensation from that particular German not from any German. Sounds fair? You people seem to have a problem in comprehending such a simple premise.

However there is a certain degree to which citizens are responsible for the actions of their state.
----------------------------------

If you have a choice, that is. The Nazis were not democratically elected, as you might know. It's always easy to demand the "good people doing the Christian thing" if you don't have to live under such a terror regime yourself. Mao, Pol Pot, ISIS, Stalin, Hitler ... they all have one thing in common: once they were in control, opposition from within was almost impossible and the slaughter began.

Contrary to Poles who according to you evidently had have a choice.
--------------------------------
JollyRomek 7 | 480
19 Apr 2015 #143
So it would add credibility to your attempts at whitewashing Germans

Attempts of whitewashing are only part of your wild imagination. Discussing facts and trying to whitewash something are two different things.

If the facts are too painful for you to discuss, then don't discuss them.
Bieganski 17 | 890
19 Apr 2015 #144
Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

"Poland has summoned the United States' ambassador in Warsaw over an article written by a top U.S. intelligence official on Poland's alleged responsibility for the Holocaust during World War Two...A foreign ministry spokesman said...that the U.S. ambassador would be summoned to the ministry over the article, and that Poland would demand an apology."

Source: news.yahoo/poland-summon-u-ambassador-over-fbi-heads-holocaust-112916075.html

Well, well, well. Just as I believed should happen only yesterday!

Bieganski: The MFA needs to call the American ambassador onto the carpet for a harsh dressing down over this affront to Poland.

Oh, and of course, Harry - whose stock-in-trade on PF is to brag to everyone that he knows everything about Poland especially Polish thinking - butted right in and quickly dismissed this was even going to happen:

Harry: Fortunately for those of us who choose to live, work and pay our taxes in Poland, there's no chance of Ambassador Mull's time being wasted by such pointless action.

"No chance" of it happening, huh Harry?

So, Harry, will you be calling upon the MFA in person to let them know your displeasure that as someone "living, working and paying taxes in Poland" they are not following your instructions? After all, in your mind, Polish ministry officials have the responsibility to heed your advice. Be sure to tell them that you are paying their salaries with your taxes. And don't forget to take a Polish interpreter along with you just so you are not mistaken at first as being a lost tourist.
jon357 74 | 21,935
19 Apr 2015 #145
Discussing facts and trying to whitewash something are two different things.

Exactly - trying to promote a point of view rather than cherishing objectivity is not only transparent but also an insult to all concerned.
Harry
19 Apr 2015 #146
it wouldn't be remiss to have the American ambassador expelled over this offense

So then, bieganski, when will that expulsion be happening? My guess is that it'll happen shortly after you manage to explain why a man born a Polish citizen in Poland to an ethnically Polish mother and (according to local rumour) a Polish Jewish father, who grew up identifying himself as ethnically Polish, joined the Polish police, joined the Polish army during WWII and then lived in England where he identified himself as a Polish patriot was not in reality Polish, i.e. immediately after hell freezes over.
Bieganski 17 | 890
19 Apr 2015 #147
So then, biegers, when will that expulsion be happening?

Do try to follow along.

I stated that the US ambassador should be summoned first. This indeed has happened even though you fatuously stated it never would. And look at how quickly it did too!

Ambassador Mull told Polish media that he already sent a letter of protest to the crass FBI director to tell him how spectacularly wrong he is (just like you were in your assessment of what the Polish government's reaction would be to Comey's unacceptable comments).

There has been no published response yet from dopey Comey over his shocking blunder.

So time will tell if the MFA is satisfied with Mull's efforts so far. But if a formal apology from America is not forthcoming then as I stated before an expulsion of the US ambassador would be fully justified until one is issued. It is a very appropriate response that is still on the table for the MFA to use.

And an apology is due; I'd say long overdue. Obama got it wrong about Poland and The Holocaust and now one of his appointees got it wrong.

This is a serious problem that requires corrective action. Poland is an important player in Europe and has always been a friend to America. America still has interests in Europe and so it is in its own best interests to keep Poland on its side. Additionally, American politicians cannot risk ignoring and upsetting its significant large Polish community by spreading misinformation about Poland whether due to ignorance or bigotry.

My guess is that...(according to local rumour)

Indeed, as your posts demonstrate your understanding of Poland is always based on guesses and rumors whereas I deal in facts and experience.
Harry
19 Apr 2015 #148
I stated that the US ambassador should be summoned first. This indeed has happened even though you fatuously stated it never would. And look at how quickly it did too!

Please try to tell then truth: you did not state that Ambassador Mull should first be summoned and then expelled. You said "The MFA needs to call the American ambassador onto the carpet for a harsh dressing down over this affront to Poland. Heck, it wouldn't be remiss to have the American ambassador expelled over this offense" Why do you need to make things up? And when will that expulsion be?

whereas I deal in facts and experience.

You have no experience of Poland, you've never even set foot here. As for facts, any chance you can explain your refusal to deal with the fact that Polish men such as Sawoniuk took part in the holocaust? How does you peddling fiction help Poland.
Wulkan - | 3,212
19 Apr 2015 #149
fact that Polish men such as Sawoniuk took part in the holocaust?

a fabricated fact?
Bieganski 17 | 890
19 Apr 2015 #150
Please try to tell then truth

Unsurprisingly, you did not quote me in full. I said that the US ambassador should be summoned by the MFA. I then added after this that he should be expelled "until the dope Comey issues a correction and groveling apology to Poland along with his resignation."

The ambassador was only just summoned. However, no correction, apology or resignation has been received yet. So an expulsion is an option the MFA has to exercise and I believe they should if Polish concern over this matter is met with indifference in Washington.

Sawoniuk took part in the holocaust

Yes he did. I responded to you already about the Belarusian-born British citizen Sawoniuk and how he was convicted for committing war crimes in Poland. He was tried as a British citizen, in a British courtroom, under British law, and imprisoned in a British jail where he subsequently died.

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