Guzzler, thanks for the story, it's always interesting to read such events and histories!
cry me a river. If I was a mod, I would suspend you for racism and spreading hate.
Thank the higher powers that you're not then...this forum would be rather dull. It would be you, Lodz the boat and Rock holding hands singing "Kum-ba-yah". Everyone else would be suspended because they hurt your feelings.
Please point out to me where I have been racist. You know, by today's standard, you're a racist too, from the post you just wrote. You attacked me because of my ethnic minority background. Should I "cry me a river" to the moderator like you do, or should I just get on with actually debating. I find links, I tell personal stories and I give actual facts when I say what I say. What do you do? You whine and cry and say words like "racist", and you know you've lost the debate when the racist card comes out. That's the card that comes out when you don't have anything else to contribute to the debate and just want to shut someone up. Racist...racist...racist...The word has lost it's meaning. Why don't you actually debate me instead of calling me names.
according to you Poles are victims of Jewish people and how could Jews do that to Polish people since Polish people gave them home, blah, blah.
"Blah blah"? This is what you say after thousands of polish patriots risked their lives to save YOUR family, other poles' families AND jews? Their reward was a bullet in the head and being dumped in unmarked graves! And you call yourself a pole? You should f**ing show some respect, aphrodisiac. If it wasn't for them you would have been named Vladimir or Gunther, and there would be NO POLAND, where you could sit on your ass in your complete ignorance, having the freedom THEY gave you. You are truly a disgrace to your country, and your history teacher should be suspended if he or she didn't make this clear enough for you.
What I meant about the jewish people not assimilating into polish life is that still after hundreds of years in predominant catholic country, they still maintained their religion and their culture. That takes determination and a collective mind. This does not always come out positively, but it does as far as keeping your faith and your people being jewish. But it also shows the ethnic people of that country (The jews lived in many different countries for hundreds of years), that they are not accepting the country in which they live in, their religion and ways of life, and that they want to stay seperate and keep their own traditions. This is fine, but this will bring animosity or scepticism from the general population, which in times of war can come out in the ugliest forms. On both sides. How do you come to the conclusion that I think it was a good thing that Hitler killed the jews? First you concoct up something I never said by "reading between the lines", then you conclude that I'm an anti-semite, a racist and a hater. I know people who debate like this. They are usually communists or staunch anti-racists who see racism behind every bush. Are you such a person, aphrodisiac?
I don't dislike your posts as much as you dislike Muslims, Jews so far.
I don't dislike muslims because they are muslims, and I don't dislike jews because they are jews. I dislike people who act in such a way, as to undermine the land they live in, break the laws of that land, and betray the people who have given them shelter. Muslim, jewish, Sikh or whatever. In this category many muslims and jews unfortunately can be found. If I point this out, am I the hater? If I show you concrete examples, dozens of them, even hundreds of them, is it my fault for sharing them with you? Do you not want to see the truth, even it hurts your feelings? If it goes against what you believe? Do you want to live in darkness, like the muslims? Do you want to live in eternal pain, like the jews? I don't, and I don't want them to bring their religious and historical baggage into my country, and use it against me and my people, in order to somehow carve themselves out a lifestyle on my countrys behalf. Which at a later date will become the death of my people, like it did with the jews in Poland before, during and after the second world war.
Poland would not have an Auschwitz as we know it today, if not for the jewish people. There would be no Katyn massacre, no Koniuchy Massacre and no Naliboky massacre, just to mention some. There would be no dark cellars where polish officers, soldiers and patriots, men and women, young and old, met their fate alone. Where threats to kill their families, with gruesome torture by the jewish NKVD, was followed by a bullet to the back of the skull. Betrayed by the same people they fought so heroically for to save, while risking everything themselves. There would be no trains to Siberia where life would end in the cold winters. Why was it that the jews who lived closer to the Soviet border would greet the russians by kissing their tanks and preparing welcome seremonies like "flowered arches", for the red army when it entered Poland? Why did jewish gangs and thugs kill polish soldiers and innocent poles in the cities they lived in, when they knew they could get away with it? Where was their "humanity", that they so often ask for themselves?
Stories about jewish murderers of poles;
The names behind communism, the names behind the murders and the names behind the real hate, in my eyes, are not polish, but jewish. Let's turn it around, and let me give some praise to the Tatars who in the eye of the storm protected Poland from her enemies. If the jews fought alongside the poles against the germans and the russians all the way, until the bitter end, then maybe there would be no "Jedwabne" or "Kielce" pogroms. Maybe the jews would be seen upon with great respect and admiration by the poles for protecting their common land. Like the Tatars are today. Why are these pogroms so focused on, while the jews' role in killing hundreds of thousands of poles, just because they were christian poles, overseen? Why were jews overrepresented in communist organizations, by counting for as many as 65% of the communist membership in Warszawa before the war, and over 50% in the communist youth of Poland? This even though they only constituted for 10% of the population!
Here are some well known jewish communists who operated in Poland;
Jozef Swiatlo, - Izak Fleischfarb - Who arrested priests and sent them to torture camps, like he did on 25 September 1953, when Stefan Wyszynski, the cardinal and protector of the Armia Krajowa, was imprisoned in the monastery in Komancza, in the Bieszczady Mountains. While imprisoned, the Cardinal observed the brutal torture and mistreatment of the detainees, some highly perverse in nature.
Roman Romkowski - Menasze Grünszpan - Kikiel - Worked for the butcher Levrenty Beria, responsible for the Katyn forest murders, where 22 000 officers, soldiers, doctors and priests were brutally murdered by the NKVD. He was a close ally, and was his personal contact in Poland after the war.
Jozef Rozanski - Josek Goldberg - Who personally tortured and helped murder one of polands biggest heros, Cavalry Captain Pilecki, and who was known as one of the most brutal secret police interrogators, tortured and helped murder hundreds of patriotic poles.
Boleslaw Bierut - Who sentenced hundreds of polish war heros to death, including the aformentioned "the hero of Auschwitz", Witold Pilecki. He also arrested and imprisoned General Stanislaw Tatar.
Jacob Berman - Stalins right hand and responsible for deciding who lived and who died in Poland for almost ten years. (The choice of Berman to head up the polish secret police by Stalin, was connected with his Jewish origins, which exonerated him from suspicion of Polish patriotism and advocacy of Poland's independence. Stalin regarded the Jews as cosmopolites, whose loyalties would be to Zionism rather than the country of their residence ... [KORBANSKI, p. 73]).
The Bielski gang - killed, raped and looted thousands of polish peasants and resistance fighters, and participated in the treacherous disarmament of Polish partisans by the Soviets in 1943, helping directly in the executions of polish soldiers.
Julia Brystiger - Julia Preiss - Who claimed that all intelligensia of Poland needed to be exterminated and helped in doing so.
Anatol Fejgin - Tortured and helped murder numerous poles. "Symbolized", Stalins terror in Poland.
What do all the above have in common? They were all born in Poland. They are but a small contigent from the thousands that existed. What would you call them? I would call them traitors.
"Stephan Korbanski also notes that the Soviet Communist secret police-team assembled by Berman [whose brother Adolf was chairman of the Jewish Committee in Poland till 1947, when he immigrated to Israel] [CHECINSKI, M., 1982, p. 85] at the beginning of his rule were all Jewish -- Vice Minister Natan Grunsapau-Kikiel (Roman Romkowski) [who once interrogated Korbanski], and other high officials like General Julius Hibner (David Schwartz), Anatol Fejgin, security police chief Joseph Swiatlo, Joseph Rozanski (Goldberg), 'Colonel
Czaplicki,' and Zygmut Okret. These were not the only Jewish officials who oppressed Poles in the name of communism. Victor Klosiewicz, a member of the Communist Council of State, has stated that 'it was unfortunate that all the department directors in the Ministry of State were Jews.'" [KORBANSKI, p. 78]
Our neighbouring countries had their own, Russia had Lenin, Trotsky, Apfelbaum, Wallach, Andropov, Sverdlov, Yurovsky, Kaganovich, Bronsteins, Frankel, Firin, Rappoport and thousands more. Hungary had Bela Kun, who machine gunned all the hungarian prisoners of war who refused to join the red army, and Rakosi, Yugoslavia had Moshe Pijade. Estonia had Hans Grabbe who murdered most of the estonian officers, and it was Herman Gutkin and Viktor Feigin who marched through the streets and tore down estonian flags replacing them with the soviet red flags after the Soviet army took over in 1940. Hirsch Aisenstadt, who was the chairman of the Jewish cultural autonomy in Estonia admitted that the jews were the worst perpetraters of crimes, amongst other things they had Stella Schliefstein, who torturered her victims by "Tearing up their victims arm and leg muscles", and the jewish dentist Budas, "Used to scald victims' hands and feet in boiling water so that their swollen skin hung loose like gloves or socks". But I'm digressing, back to Poland;
"As Piotr S. Wandycz of Yale University observes, "The average Pole could not but notice in the Stalinist era that the two most powerful men in the country-Berman and Minc-were both Jewish as was the dreaded security official Rozanski." (N.Y. Review of Books, Aug. 18, 1983, p. 51).
"Chodakiewicz noted that some 3500 to 6500 Poles died in late 1940s because of Jewish denunciations or were killed by Jews themselves
"A recent study by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance showed that out of 450 people in director positions in the Ministry between 1944 and 1954, 167 (37.1%) were of Jewish ethnicity, while Jews made up approximately 1% of the post-war Polish population.
Of the poles killed in Katyn were; An admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors (including Stefan Kaczmarz); 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. In all, the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps. Altogether, during the massacre the NKVD murdered 14 Polish generals. (From Wikipedia). "Blah blah", aphrodisiac? I wonder if you would say that to the last survivors of the generation that survived the slaughter of our finest men and women.
Some exerpts about jews and their lives in Poland;
"In prewar Poland," notes Wladyslaw Krajewski, a Polish Jew, "... the majority of Jews did not regard themselves as Poles. Growing up for the most part in Jewish environments, they observed only the Jewish customs and religion, spoke only Yiddish at home, and generally spoke Polish poorly." [Krajewski, 96-97] Norman Salsitz describes growing up in a Jewish community in a Polish town and discovering that many Jews did not even know what the Polish flag looked like. [Salsitz, N., 1992, 73] In 1936, Jewish voting patterns in Poland (in their self-governing kehillah organizations) revealed a 38 percent vote for the Bund party (a group emphasizing a Jewish, as opposed to Polish, identity), 36 percent vote for Zionist lists (the return to Israel group), and religious Orthodox (religiously anti-Gentile) and "middle-class" groups at about 23 percent. [Gitelman]
Chaim Bermant notes:
"In Poland, the Jews became so numerous, prosperous and entrenched, that
they began to lose something of their caution. Their whole economy was based
mainly on the arenda system under which they became tax farmers and collectors
for the crown, or lessees of the forests, estates, mills and salt mines of the
nobility. Some operated on a large scale, many on a small scale, leasing a few
acres of land, or operating a small distillery or tavern, but their utility to their
superiors rested in their powers of extraction. The peasantry, the work force,
the cattle, the land, were all regarded in much the same light and were pressed
for their maximum yield, and if the nobility were thus the ultimate exploiters,
the Jews were the visible ones and aroused the most immediate hostility. Rabbis
warned that Jews were sowing a terrible harvest of hatred, but while the revenues
rolled in the warnings were ignored. Moreover, the rabbis themselves were
beneficiaries of the system." [BERMANT, C., 1977, p. 26]
There can be many reasons why the average pole did not look too favourable upon the jew, and the two links I just posted can maybe answer a little bit of that. Imagine, a people that lives among you, people that you see every day, they are found to be overrepresented in the ideological nightmare called communism, supporting your biggest enemy. They partake in the fall of the russian empire and the installement of revolutionary men like Stalin, Trotsky and Lenin, who's ideological leaders Marx and Engels' professed that "slavs are to be exterminated". They are all the masterminds and responsible for the Holodomor, where millions of ukrainians are murdered by either bullets or starvation. Where whole villages were wiped out in the late 20's and early 30's. After this, they move on to your border, they start agitating and becoming more and more involved in the same politics in Poland. The everyday pole would be very wary of these people and their ways. You know what they did during the russian revolution, the bloody purges, the starvation and the inhumane behaviour. You know that many of them are jewish, and you now know that they are in your own country as well. Imagine after Katyn, how would you feel if you knew some of the killed there? A captain, maybe your uncle or your neighbour. A priest, maybe the priest from your town? How about the local doctor who saved your little sister when she was ill. Now they are all gone, brutally murdered and thrown into nameless pits. Who does this? and why? They were killed because they were ethnic and christian poles. You know that this idelology was created by jews, that they have the highest positions in the secret police and the army. That they control the personal papers of all you countrymen, who get's to live, who get's to be tortured and who get's to die. You know their names. When a time comes for you to take revenge, will you not do it? Will you remain silent and let someone else do the justice for you? It's the second world war, and your country is in ruins. Concentration camps are everwhere, to the west the germans kill you, and to the east the soviets do the same. The secret police can come knocking at any time, will your neighbour give you up for food, money or for their safety? When people who were born in your country, that grew up in your neighbourhoods, who went to school with your and who's family reaped the benefits of your generous country, can turn against you in such a way, does that not tell you something about them? Will it not give you scepticism about them? Resentment? Hatred?
If this goes on for hundreds of years, in the end the friction, the suspiciousness and the bitterness from the locals will culminate. As it did during the second world war. If this afterwards is called "anti-semitism" and said to be done "just because they were jews", is for the individual to decide. It's like only getting to know one side in a courtcase. Many a times I have sided with the person who got to tell his grief, but that was until I heard the other side, and which put a completely different light on things. This is human nature, and I believe many people only get to hear the jewish side of things. But when you read about how the jewish people acted for hundreds of years, how they made a living, and in the end, how they treated the same people who were willing, and who did give their lives for them, one has to understand how those things came to happen. Why did the jewish people experience expulsion and condemnation from all over Europe throughout history? Kings, popes, priests, historians, mayors and farmers have all told their stories of their encounters with the jews, and it is not a pleasant read, nor does it put a favourable light on them. Were they all anti-semites? Hitler and national-socialism did not exist in Norway, when they drafted the constitution in 1814, the second paragraph concluded that "jews are not permitted in Norway". What about the Egyptians? Were they nazis too?
All of this is not written because of my "hatred for the jews", as posters like "aphrodisiac" would say, but to bring light to the cause of the events that would happen in Poland when jews either lost, or regained power, and there was civil unrest. You are right on one thing though, aphrodisiac, there would be enough tears to cry us a river for our brave men and women who died at the hands of those they thought were their friends. And by the way, it's not the jews that I'm "afraid" of, they are not ethnic poles, they don't want to be, and never will be. I don't expect anything from them. But you aphrodisiac, you're the one I worry about, because if Poland can't depend on her own people to protect her, like you, then we are doomed to repeat history.
On one hand it prides me that my little country by the sea was the most tolerant state in the world on the other hand it doesn't surprise me at all. We've always been ahead of everybody else in Europe. :P
You sure you want to go that this way, MareGaea? Why didn't you include the fact that your country will soon look like one of your former colonies, and that tolerance only goes as far as critizing the muslims, when if you do, you will find yourself in front of a judge, faster than you can say "Hot verdomme!". Or maybe dead on the street with a knife in your chest with some arabic writings on it. A once great nation reduced to third world immigrants rioting in the streets and a right wing extremist as your next prime minister. (If he's not in jail for hatespeech). That is way ahead of anybody else in Europe! Yey!