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Why did Hitler kill so many Jews in Poland?


EchoTheCat - | 137
3 Apr 2010 #151
Help me out here, is it ironic that Jews were dying at Auschwitz at the time of Jedwabne?

No. Ironic was the way I said it...

Help me out here, is it ironic that Jews were dying at Auschwitz at the time of Jedwabne?

No. Ironic was the way I said it...

A great post, sht. I don't like Poland being made out to be the scapegoat when they did their part in their own way. You are citing rational sources, others just lash out through emotion.

Most of Pole like to be a scapegoat.
It's funny because it the same time when this post was made Russian TV showed Andrzej Wajda's "Katyn". So in the same time when Russians admit that massacre in Katyn was Russian fault, most of Poles deny their own murders. Thanks God it's not the opinion of historians.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
3 Apr 2010 #152
But you have to agree that Poles were anti-semitic before the war.

Yeah that "Polish-Anti-Semitism" must of been the reason why Jews CHOSE to LIVE in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

"Polish Anti-Semitism" is the reason why Poland was a MAGNET for Jews for so many years.

Jews CHOSE to LIVE in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS because of all that "Polish Anti-Semitism" LOL

I guess Jews are either idiots or masochists LOL
EchoTheCat - | 137
3 Apr 2010 #153
I'm not talking about the whole history of Jews in Poland. For centuries (especially in XVII) Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe when the shelter could find not only Jews but Arians, Lutherans or Calvinists. But in 30's the increase of anti-semitism was huge. I have something about 10 yearbooks of popular polish newspapers from 34-39 with jokes about Jews. And believe me, they stink of anti-semitism for a mile. My friend showed me few of anti-semitism leaflets which were distributed on streets in 30's.

You are right that for many centuries Poland was some kind of paradise for Jews but in 30's this paradise was definitely over.
vetala - | 382
3 Apr 2010 #154
You are right that for many centuries Poland was some kind of paradise for Jews but in 30's this paradise was definitely over.

I agree with this. There's no point denying that Jews were far from liked in pre-war Poland. Obviously, not liking Jews and wishing for their death are two different things but let's not whitewash the unpleasant atmosphere and sour feelings between us.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Apr 2010 #155
You are right that for many centuries Poland was some kind of paradise for Jews

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe

Read the Polish section. Two quotes I think is relevant for this discussion:

1.

It should be noted that despite the mentioned incidents, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a relative haven for Jews when compared to the period of the partitions of Poland and the PLC's destruction in 1795

2.

While there are many examples of Polish support and help for the Jews during World War II and the Holocaust, there are also numerous examples of anti-Semitic incidents, and the Jewish population was certain of the indifference towards their fate from the Christian Poles.

For centuries (especially in XVII) Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe

Ehm, nope, read following:

In the aftermath of the Deluge and Chmielnicki Uprising, many Jews fled to the less turbulent Netherlands, which had granted the Jews a protective charter in 1619. From then until the Nazi deportations in 1942, the Netherlands remained a remarkably tolerant haven for Jews in Europe, exceeding the tolerance extant in all other European countries at the time, and becoming one of the few Jewish havens until nineteenth century social and political reforms throughout much of Europe.

On one hand it prides me that my little country by the sea was the most tolerant state in the world on the other hand it doesn't surprise me at all. We've always been ahead of everybody else in Europe. :P

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
EchoTheCat - | 137
3 Apr 2010 #156
While there are many examples of Polish support and help for the Jews during World War II and the Holocaust, there are also numerous examples of anti-Semitic incidents, and the Jewish population was certain of the indifference towards their fate from the Christian Poles.

First of all I don't consider Wikipedia as a reliable source because EVERYONE CAN WRITE AN ARTICLE THERE :)
As Vetala said there's a huge difference between not liking people and wishing them to die. Of course there was an examples of helping Jews. But see the difference between generalization and enumerating such examples one by one. Generally in press (which can be treat as authoritative reflection of people's way of thinking) there was a lot of anti-semitism incidents.

In the aftermath of the Deluge and Chmielnicki Uprising, many Jews fled to the less turbulent Netherlands, which had granted the Jews a protective charter in 1619

What it means "many" ? In XVII century Poland was the biggest country in Europe (as historians say from sea to sea - from Baltic Sea to Black Sea) and what you are talking about has happened on Polish eastern borders. So I understand that Jews from east escaped from there but it doesn't mean it was some kind of exodus from Poland :)

On one hand it prides me that my little country

Yep, if all Jews from Poland escaped to Holland, your country would be far far too little ;)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Apr 2010 #157
First of all I don't consider Wikipedia as a reliable source

Only if it says what you want to hear, it's reliable, is that right? :) You'll be surprised how many ppl on this forum think like that. But in all I know the concept and some articles have been written by experts. Also, if the contents is too biased, it will be removed. In all, Wiki gives a nice impression of the general tendencies of a subject.

As Vetala said there's a huge difference between not liking people and wishing them to die.

I am sure that many wished they were dead. But that's off the point. I do appreciate the fact that PL had the most Jews at the time, due to its sheer size and a few other factors, but as usual "tolerance" is an idea only carried by the general impression, not by individuals. For example: NL has always been the most tolerant country in Europe, and they had a protective charter regarding the Jews. However, this did not mean that Jews from the East were merrily welcomed. Oh, they were allowed to move there, but the locals didn't really like them, neither did the VOC (the East Indies Company) nor the government as they were poor.

Sefardic Jews on the other hand were welcome because they were rich.

Tolerance is a very elusive concept.

>^..^<

M-G (holy moly)
EchoTheCat - | 137
3 Apr 2010 #158
Only if it says what you want to hear, it's reliable, is that right? :)

Noooo. I have no problems with dealing with things which I prefer not to hear :P Of course there are experts on Wiki but usually they sink in the sea of crap ;) That's why I prefer books.

I am sure that many wished they were dead.

I have nothing more to say :) Especially if I have some eggs to paint (I'm not joking...) and I see you are an "essay man" so I agree with everything you say in advance :P
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Apr 2010 #159
I see you are an "essay man"

You should read the essays I wrote when I was in university :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ironside 50 | 10,910
3 Apr 2010 #160
Where ? When ? By who ? Facts please :)

You mean to say that you don't know? So, what are you doing here playing an expert?

Frankly Jedwabne and many other massacres were pinned on the german troops after the war ended

Poor innocent blondes :D

What are you suggesting ?

That during the war many people were killed, for many different reasons, its possible that some Jews were killed by Poles,not because they were Jews but because of their deeds, and you can be sure it was pined as anti-Semitic act.

You are citing rational sources, others just lash out through emotion.

Guilty, but having myself an academic background I'm well aware that sources could be used to support your thesis:) Consequently some quotes prove nothing except that in the most cases knowledge of a quoter on discussed subject is limited:)

I know a lot on the subject and I'm fed up with armchair moralist who do not posses even fraction of my knowledge and are they rush to pass easy judgements.

Also, why concentrated on negatives if overtly Poles passed test of fire on positive note - and were reworded by being locked in Soviet hell!

You're getting a bit confused here,

not at all, wait for my answer I'm busy now making a cake:)

when wrongdoings of the Poles get pointed out.

that not a point, I simply deny that Kielce case prove something, 1946 is not a time of peace in Poland, and so called "Polish Government" you talk so casually about was in fact Soviet creation and if you cannot understand such a simple true; how could you expect to understand much more complicated issues :)

For the record I don't deny that during the war sometimes Poles killed Jews but you could find also an example when Jews killed Poles.

I'm asking only what it is to prove ?
World knows so little about suffering of Poland and Poles great deeds during WWII. When told its reaction is "oh no again, or moaning" and so on, that such "academic" pursuit of some small not important in overall picture issues going to obscure the great picture and in this way its a lie.

Do you really need to discuss WWII in Poland only in regard to "Jewish question" ?
So do it on Jewish forum, Poles suffered enough during WWII and after to say - **** off !

As to Jedwabne , I know that investigation were cut short by the political decision to say that it was Poles assisted in those murders that matters.

So, I have serious doubts about it!
In Kielce case, you can ask soviets as they were in charge and if anything they are responsible , there was present heavy armed and security forces at the time - what were they doing?

I have the reasons to doubt!
On the other hand if Poles killed Jews in both cases I would have no calms to admit it!
I would have only asked - so what?
(I-S) Thought that G-M knows better, hence those emotions!
EchoTheCat - | 137
3 Apr 2010 #161
You mean to say that you don't know? So, what are you doing here playing an expert?

No I don't. That's why ....I asked.... And he didn't answer so he didn't know.

That during the war many people were killed, for many different reasons, its possible that some Jews were killed by Poles,not because they were Jews but because of their deeds, and you can be sure it was pined as anti-Semitic act.

Picking up some single sentences from whole reply it's not good idea when you want to be treated seriously :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #162
on topic.

cry me a river. If I was a mod, I would suspend you for racism and spreading hate.

according to you Poles are victims of Jewish people and how could Jews do that to Polish people since Polish people gave them home, blah, blah. The reality my dear is: Poles killed some Jews, Jews killed some Poles. I think that you are the minority in your country (being a Pole in Norway and you are trying to compensate for that). As for Jews converting to Catholic religion-- you must be a really unrealistic person, because many Jews converted at one point. So basically what you are saying the Hitler did a good job by killing Jews because they betrayed (among other nationalities) Poles.

Aphordisiac, I don't know which country you originate from,

I am from Poland and I still don't understand the anti- Semitic sentiments. Sue me.

When Poles are attacked, they become defensive and claim that they are the VICTIMS, but nobody else is.

I don't dislike your posts as much as you dislike Muslims, Jews so far.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Apr 2010 #163
Aphrodisiac, you are from Poland yet 100% Ukrainian?

Why did Hitler kill so many Jews? They were a potential threat with their communistic leanings and insistence on their own way of living.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #164
Aphrodisiac, you are from Poland yet 100% Ukrainian?

you are from the UK, yet Scot, almost the same thing.

They were a potential threat with their communistic leanings and insistence on their own way of living.

excuses. Germany was in a really bad economic situation, needed a scapegoat to blame it on somebody, Jews were an easy target, as Muslims in EU are right now- it nicely gets attention away from other problems EU/Europe is facing.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Apr 2010 #165
I don't think you annihilate a whole creed based on being a scapegoat, aphro, it goes well beyond that.

Yes but I don't say that I'm from England but am 100% Scottish ;) ;)
ShawnH 8 | 1,508
3 Apr 2010 #166
Jews were an easy target, as Muslims in EU are right now- it nicely gets attention away from other problems EU/Europe is facing.

Interesting question...

Are the Muslims of today changing the face of Europe to an equal / greater / lesser degree than the Jews of the 1920's / 30's? Is it comparable?
Bzibzioh
3 Apr 2010 #167
Is it comparable?

Jews were supporters of communism. So are Muslims today. Generalization, I know, but still ...

Jews were an easy target, as Muslims in EU are right now- it nicely gets attention away from other problems EU/Europe is facing.

Nonsense. If not for terrorism nobody would give them a second thought.
Ozzy Osbourne
3 Apr 2010 #168
So are Muslims today. Generalization, I know, but still ...

Muslims don't even know what communism is.

Funny how people say Jews like communism. Just because Trotsky was a jew, it doesn't mean Jews like the communist thinking. I'd say most of them are capitalist ;)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #169
I don't think you annihilate a whole creed based on being a scapegoat, aphro, it goes well beyond that.

that is not for me to discuss. There are many threads about that already and I agree that the issues of minorities in EU is a complex matter.

Yes but I don't say that I'm from England but am 100% Scottish ;) ;)

who is this question about? You, or me, because you are confusing me now.

Interesting question...

it is.

Is it comparable?

it the way they are shunned? YES.
In the way the are misunderstood? YES.
In the way both groups were "invited" into Europe. I would say YES.

Jews were supporters of communism. So are Muslims today. Generalization, I know, but still ...

so were many non - Jews, so I would disagree. There is a different dynamics at play with Muslims, but for both groups it it is a non win situation. If they assert themselves too much - they are perceived as a group not wanting to assimilate, yet they are given enough freedom to assert themselves - it is a vicious circle really.

I think that Europeans wanted Jews to be the underdog, but who wants to be the underdog for a long time, even the underdog will eventually rebel. Some Jews converted, yet everybody knew there were Jews.

Most Muslims were brought to Europe as guest workers (Germany, Moroco). Nobody wanted them to stay, they were suppose to be the source of cheap labour, yet they, like any other group have needs and want their freedom as well. Europeans want to keep them in the position of underdogs but it is not going to work........

Nonsense. If not for terrorism nobody would give them a second thought.

Terrorism was not a Muslim invention and as far as I know Irish were the leaders in that department due the the ethnic tension in NI/Ireland. One needs to look into the causes of Muslim terrorism and I always look at the terrorism as a sign of desperation.

Some Jews were communists, some were not. Blaming Jews for communism is just another tactics of diverting the attention and an attempt to blame only Jews, while those people who lived in eg communist Poland know very well that a the majority of communist were Polish.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Apr 2010 #170
Aphro, it's about the principle of how you see yourself.

You can't just say that Hitler chose the Jews as scapegoats. For what? He knew who the real culprits were for unrest in the German populace. It wasn't the Jews.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #171
Aphro, it's about the principle of how you see yourself.

I know how I see myself. Are we done here?

You can't just say that Hitler chose the Jews as scapegoats. For what? He knew who the real culprits were for unrest in the German populace. It wasn't the Jews.

there are many sources on that, look them up please.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Apr 2010 #172
Yup, you know what I meant I take it so we are done :)

I know there are sources. I'm just saying that Hitler had other reasons than those.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #173
I'm just saying that Hitler had other reasons than those.

well, you can expend on that if you like.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Apr 2010 #174
I have elsewhere. Look them up please :)
guzzler 1 | 88
3 Apr 2010 #175
you are from the UK, yet Scot, almost the same thing.

Scots are as different to the rest of the Uk, as Poles are to Spaniards.

Germany was in a really bad economic situation, needed a scapegoat to blame it on somebody, Jews were an easy target, as Muslims in EU are right now- it nicely gets attention away from other problems EU/Europe is facing.

Hitler believed as did all the brown shirts that the Jews were bent on world domination.He packaged it all togather Marks the Jewish bankers and militant Jewish leaders of the communist workers. And sold it to the people, the west was quite happy to let Hitler sort out the commies. If this meant a few Jews getting their heads caved in, as far as they

were concerned tough. I am at a complete loss to understand why he got into a program of exterminating the Jews in the middle of a war. I had a friend who was a German Jew he said they were happy to see the Brown Shirts sort out the reds. They started to worry when they attacked ordinary Jews and business's. That was when his Dad sent him and his sister to Holland, and later they came to London he was thirteen his sister younger, they never saw their Mum and Dad again.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
3 Apr 2010 #176
Scots are as different to the rest of the Uk, as Poles are to Spaniards.

well, I was trying to explain my situation to Seanus and the closest comparison was his situation as a Scott in the UK. I know it is not the same as the Ukrainian in Poland.

If this meant a few Jews getting their heads caved in, as far as they were concerned tough

something like that. All Jews were clumped as one group, while they were not.

I had a friend who was a German Jew he said they were happy to see the Brown Shirts sort out the reds. They started to worry when they attacked ordinary Jews and business's. That was when his Dad sent him and his sister to Holland, and later they came to London he was thirteen his sister younger, they never saw their Mum and Dad again.

That's a sad story and there were many of them.
nomaderol 5 | 726
3 Apr 2010 #177
Jews were supporters of socialism. So are Muslims today. Generalization, I know, but still ...

Good for them if so.. When will christians go out of dark churches? Christ himself was a socialist. St Paul's first preach, that made the term 'Christianity' born in the history, in the Pisidian Antiochia was given by him during a socialist movement of ordinary folks of the city by breaking water ducts at the hill where the palace was located. Religions were born as socialist movements, later, controlled and used by the wealthy rich palaces against the ordinary folks to keep them away from their chateaus, still so even today. Socialism wasn't started by Marx, who was non-religious Jew like any Ashkenazi Jew. He just wrote his observations especially following nomadic human travels throughout the history. Settled people had sat on the gold mine lands.

Ps: it is a disappointment to see the women staying against the socialism, a system that's actually beneficiary for the female world.. I know women prefer to side with the powers of the day and you may still carry high hopes to be queen, but, there is only one queen position. and, the throne is about to be thrown into the salvage area.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
4 Apr 2010 #178
That's why ....I asked.... And he didn't answer so he didn't know.

No, you didn't, and you know it!

Picking up some single sentences from whole reply it's not good idea when you want to be treated seriously

treat me as you please, I don't care!
But that single sentence showed you lack of knowledge on the subject and you confirmed it

No I don't.

, so my picking one sentence from your post is not that silly as you like it to be:)
Is it because it make you look ....... ?:D
EchoTheCat - | 137
4 Apr 2010 #179
Is it because it make you look .......not as you would like to present yourself ?:D

Heh yes it is :)))

I. Have. No. Patience. To. Persons. Like. You. Good. Night.
Bzibzioh
4 Apr 2010 #180
Muslims don't even know what communism is.

They may be not familiar with the term but are familiar with the principles. Saddam Hussein anyone?

Funny how people say Jews like communism. Just because Trotsky was a jew, it doesn't mean Jews like the communist thinking.

Ever visited any kibbutz in Israel? You should: very enlightening.

I think that Europeans wanted Jews to be the underdog,

I think Europe, like the rest of the world, cares only about herself. We can extend niceness occasionally to some other group or nationals but only if it doesn't cost us too much and isn't too much trouble. If the group start asking for too many privileges and start to bother us in any way - there is going to be trouble. I think Jews were mostly persecuted for their privileged position they achieved in every country they resided in and not just for their religion.

Some Jews were communists, some were not. Blaming Jews for communism is just another tactics of diverting the attention and an attempt to blame only Jews, while those people who lived in eg communist Poland know very well that a the majority of communist were Polish.

Poles didn't embrace communism widely. Some figured that joining the party will advance their career but generally it was feared like a plaque. For sure Jewish support of communism didn't make anybody to like them more.

In the aftermath of the Deluge and Chmielnicki Uprising, many Jews fled to the less turbulent Netherlands, which had granted the Jews a protective charter in 1619.

Did it ever occur to you that they fled not because of prosecution but because Poland was in ruin and not much of the business was to be made? So instead of helping to rebuilt Poland they choose the greener pastures. What's the word I'm looking for? Oh, yes, opportunists.


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