The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 261

Why did Hitler kill so many Jews in Poland?


MareGaea 29 | 2,751
2 Apr 2010 #121
TIT: MG dont you even call me an antisemite

I don't, titty, I'm just asking you to be a bit more precise and clear. Thanks.

>^..^<

M-G (thought that was clear enough in the first place?)

Jorissa probably didn't intended it this way, but she is extremely funny by posting this.

Are you 23, blonde and big b00bs and have a thing for older men?

>^..^<

M-G (just kidding, you don't have to be 23)
nomaderol 5 | 726
2 Apr 2010 #122
MareGaea: FYI: Ashkenazi are Jews too.

Ok. They call themselves so and they too are Jews. My differentiating Ashkenazis from Sefardims is due to their motivation difference.

You know children of Abraham (Jews, Christians and Muslims as they all claim they are descendents of Abraham) and Jews say they are "chosen." It is like throne was given to Jews. Old inside wars in all kingdoms of past. Look at Muslims. Sunnis consider themselves like "chosen" and Shias (Ali supporters) were in a kind of revolt. In past, many princes in kingdoms killed each others (just as a rule) to take the throne from their fathers.

So, Sefardis as originally from Jerusalem region were children/descendents of Abraham while Ashkenazis were mostly Turkic and some Slav minority. These had nothing to do with Abraham clan/family, therefore, had nothing to do with "chosen" people. They dont know this? They have always known this, therefore, their motivation has been different than Sefardim Jews. So, why are Ashkenazis in Israel even though they arent children of Abraham? Answer: They should not be? Where did Abraham get these Jerusalem lands? Etc.
MareGaea 29 | 2,751
2 Apr 2010 #123
nomaderol: Jews say they are "chosen."

Like the Bible, you shouldn't take this so literally...I for one certainly don't feel like I am a chosen one. I am as human as can be with all my faults and good things...

Yep, the Ashkenazis converted themselves to Judaism at a later stage, but there is nothing wrong with that. Look at the Christians. If we were to follow that strict rule, nobody in Europe is a Christian de facto - they all converted to Christendom at a later stage. What I don't understand is: why is it to some such a big problem that Ashkenazis converted themselves at a later stage onto Judaism, while it is apparently not such a big issue that 100 per cent of the European population converted themselves to Christendom at a later stage? I am descending from Sefardic Jews (my anchestors came from Portugal), but I see the Ashkenazis just as much as Jews as I see the Sefardic as Jews. See what I mean?

Edit: ps if I were to follow the dreaded "Khazar" theory for the Christians, then NOBODY in Europe is a true Christian as nobody was there to convert themselves and follow Jesus Christ. Am I wrong on that? Don't think so.

>^..^<

M-G (it doesn't make any difference anyway)
nomaderol 5 | 726
2 Apr 2010 #124
There is nothing wrong in believing any religion. Whats wrong is trying to sell them forcefully by swords/bombs or by money. If there was no money involved, today, all priests, imams, etc would resign their jobs... Anyway.

What I like mostly about Judaism is that Judaism clearly express itself as religion of "this world." This is not done by Christianity and Islam clearly and explicitly while they aren't different, they too are religions of "this world" just like tousands of other religions.

All these three religions have had seperations at some point, at some time in history. Christians were seperated as Ortodox, Catholics, Protestan, etc and the first of them considered themselves as "chosen." Islam too had seperations after his death of Mohammed. Sunnis, Shias, etc. and the first of them considered themselves as "chosen." So, it is normal for Jews to consider themselves as "chosen" child of Abraham who is considered father by all these children themselves; Jews, Christians and Muslims..

Jews too had got a seperation during 8th century (life conditions forced them as they were travelling independent traders without country.) After GokTurk empire was collapsed, all Turkic tribes have spreaded around and fought with Arabs and each others. Islam was new and Arabs were big force from Middle East to Middle Asia. Turks were Tengrist, but, they were being forced by Arabs "die or accept my religion" pressure. Many staggered weakened turkic tribes accepted to be become Muslim. In the mean time, Christians too were pressuring and some Turkic tribes accepted Christianity (Chuvas in Russia, Gagauzes/GokOguz in Moldovia now, etc.) And, a mountainy Turkic tribe (red hair, stubborn) were angry at wars and pressure by Arabs/Muslims and Christians and they rejected the both (maybe, for pride - maybe, for rich Jew traders) and accepted Judaism. Then, Judaism too got a seperation, as Ashkenazi and Sefardims (Spain origin, actually Arab/Palestine land origin who moved there before.)

Main problem with these Abraham religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is that: while they show themselves as non-nationalist/universal, they are strictly dependent to Geneology and we can see this in their claims of being Abraham descendents. All these three religions are doing this. So, there is a kind of racism in these religions, clan religions in that God is implicitly grandgrandgrand..grandfather.. See patriarchial background. Where is woman in these Abraham religions?

Ps: notice that I used all terms including "chosen" etc as terms of "this world."
Ironside 53 | 12,448
2 Apr 2010 #125
Wroclaw Boy: the kind of thing i was looking for.

You mean you were looking for personal reason of Hitler's policy toward Jews ? It's all bollocks, most likely his policy wasn't based on his experiences. Nothing personal just business.

MareGaea: You tell me, how could this NOT be a Polish mistake, ironside? What did the Jews exactly do to provoke their killing?

Listen mate, what are you talking about?
Jew is a person and human being like everybody else, it means that that being a Jew doesn't exclude person from being a bastard, thief, murderer or coward; also it means that being a Jew doesn't exclude person from being brave,honest, generous or good.

Problem with "Jew and Poles after WWII" is that in western country's for last 60 or something years after end of the war Jewish part of the story were told to and fro in many shapes and forms.

There is established track for Holocaust and all what is connected with history of Jews and WWII! Mostly story is that Jews were innocent victims, good poor Jews and bad evil Germans, but nowadays its seems that Germans in the story changed to Nazi and lately to Poles.

As I see there is three issues:

*Armchair moralist like yourself who fail to see all the shadows between, you tend to see Jews only as victims in contrast to the others.

Explanation: In Poland WWII were complicated affairs.
Between Jewish policy and armed organization collaborating with Germans against their own people, there were armed organization like brother's Blielski, but contrary to the move they were only surviving and damn the others - meaning killing and robbing not only German's or rarely Germans!

Next to AK armed forces (armed poorly in comparison to "proper " regiments), there were other organizations and their forces, sometimes cooperating with AK and sometimes not.

Poles were murdered for no reason by Germans (all villages were destroyed) indiscriminately, women, children and all, sometimes by UPA or Soviets!
Conclusion: In this situation polish elite and most Poles were behaving in good and sometimes heroic fashion, Do you care for all those family's of Poles (eight children, youngest infant shot by Germans for helping out Jew) killed by Germans for help they provided to Jews? How many were find out because of Jews working for Gestapo ?

Do you even care, ******* hypocrite?
Sure, there were Polish bastards but they were hunted down by underground Polish state.
Why do you concentrate on alleged Polish wrongs or real exception?
Do you judge every nation or country by its worst ?
what count is that elite and majority of Poles behaved decently and often than not in heroic manner!
Why don't you concentrate on bankers from Wall Street some of them Jews who done nothing to help their "brothers" and whose credits busted German industry after WWI.

* Holocaust is used nowadays as political tool or means of political pressure - not subject of the thread.
*Kielce pogrom like Jedwabne is for me political fabrication.
As for Kielce there is evidence that it was a communist plot, and people held responsible by communist regime (by the way it was not polish government) could be as well innocent!

What strengthen my view of Kielce as a provocation was case of Jedwabne as I could see for myself manipulation and lies !
Jedwabne
Number of victims - anybody guess, nobody investigated et site,
Manner of death - typical German routine
Fuel - not bloody likely that such hole during the war could stash as much petrol as you need to burn even half number of people they said died.

coincidence - during the time of the deed in this area there was German Special group for eliminating Jews, commissars behind the front line in 1941. Coincidence ?

Poles fault? Bollox I say ! why don't you blame Poles for a weather ?
Credit when credit due!
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #126
nomaderol: They weren't assimilated cause actually they were/are not religious (not Jews really and they aren't semities like Sephardins.) You can't expect a nonreligious to become a Christian or religious. Assimilation in any culture is possible only and only in nonreligious environment in that religions can be considered like hobby only.

Nomaderol ... I didn't talk about assimilated Jews because this is obvious that if you want to be assimilated Jew in country like Poland you can't be an orthodox. Most of assimilated Jews lived in big cities but most of Jews in Poland in that days lived in small cities and villages. And they were far away from assimilation.

nomaderol: aren't semities like Sephardins

"Semites" is an anthropological expression and has nothing to do with religion.
DariuszTelka 5 | 193
2 Apr 2010 #127
aphrodisiac: please TELL me how your post relates to the topic, please TELL me.

The thread is about "Why did Hitler kill so many Jews in Poland?". How come Hitler chose Poland as the place to kill jews = The best place to kill jews was Poland = Poland allowed Hitler to kill jews in Poland = Poland killed jews on Hitlers order = Poland is responsible for all the jews that died during the war, not Hitler = Poland invaded itself to kill jews.

This is the way I see many debates here on this forum come to an end. So, who made you the moderator on how a thread develops? Maybe the thread-starter doesn't mind if his question turns into a full and interesting debate on a wider sense of the topic? No moderator has deleted or pushed all these posts into the "random thread". It's a debate forum, not your little sim city game where you get to control everyone, aphrodisiac.

Many polish people and the polish army were fighting to preserve the jewish life in Poland, both before, during and after the war. But since the jews were so heavily involved in communism and mostly kept to themselves, not integrating into polish society and everyday life, they were easy to point out. They did not support Polands right to be a sovereign nation, they were not part of the catholic church that is so important to the majority of poles, they kept their language, their religion and their customs. I don't blame them for that, but if you choose to do this in a foreign country, even though you have lived there for centuries, you know that this might be your downfall one day. This is human nature. The polish nation is not unique in any way in this sense, just pick up any history book and read about minorities and tribes living side by side throughout history, and what happened to them. It happened to the jews before they moved to Poland, and it happens to dozens of minorities today. What happened to the jews in Poland is NOT unique. But the fact that so many of them chose to be willing executioners of the bravest men and women of Poland after such a horrendous war, shows that one must question their motives, their morale and their trustworthiness.

Aphordisiac, I don't know which country you originate from, but imagine, your country having a small, but succesfull minority for hundreds of years. Your king granted them liberation, the possibility of free religious tolerance and the chance to prosper like never before. For hundreds of years, things seem to go along nicely, then suddenly this minority helps your countrys biggest enemy, working for their secret police, military intelligensia, they gather information about your countries military secrets, defenses and weak points. Where all the intelligensia lives and their political viewpoints. As this enemy sweeps in, hundreds of thousands of your countrymen are murdered in cold blood, whole families are wiped out, cities destroyed, women raped and children are left alone to die. The enemy now has taken over your country, controlling every aspect, the state, the military and the institutions. The same people you lived with, the neigbours you smiled to, the guy at the mayors office are suddenly hired to uphold the new conquerors laws. They are the new police chief, the new mayor, the new principal at your local university. They help arrest and imprison thousands of you countrymen, sending them to slave labour camps in Siberia, to exectuions in dark cellars or to just vanish never to be seen again. The same people you hid in the cellar, the same people you thought would fight along you against the opressors, are now working for them, taking your country and freedom away from you. This is how I FEEL the jews have been acting, and you know what, I have the facts to back it up. You might call me anti-semite and a hater, but I am just a patriot who tells it as I see it.

Since many posters in here are not polish, not even half polish, and some haven't even been to Poland, it might not be too easy to identify with Poland when it comes to how poles think, feel and react when somebody attacks them. In whatever shape or form. War or a debate forum. When I read about the jews that helped build up the terror-regime of the Soviet Union, when I read how they helped the secret police, the army and the fifth column movements all over Europe, how their people financed all the sides of the war, to make it happen, you have to excuse me for being a bit apprehensive about their ways.

As to my post, that you disliked so much, let's turn it around, why did the jews help kill poles that sacrificed their lives to save the jews? Why did thousands of Smetanskis, Romkowskis and Rozanskis beat, torture and in the end execute the same people who tried to save the aforementioned's families from the same fate in the concentration camps and ghettos? As this is a Polish forum, I would think that would be a more interesting thread.

Dariusz
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
2 Apr 2010 #128
Oh please!

Even the polish institute of National Remembrance - Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Institute_of_National_Remembrance

admitted that it wasn't the Germans!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

Many people were shocked by the findings, which contrast with the rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust.

info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/J/final.html
info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/J/Glemp.html
Ironside 53 | 12,448
2 Apr 2010 #129
Bratwurst Boy: en the polish institute of National Remembrance — Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation

I'm telling you there was investigation cut short by political decision, I don't know real reason or instigators of that political pressure.
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #130
Bratwurst Boy: Oh please!

Yes.... I was waiting for that post from you. It's like bait for the fish. Somebody says "Poles didn't kill the Jews" and BB will always swim up and swallow the bait :P

If you have time and patience you can read about 120 cities and villages where Jews were killed by Poles. You can find it in IPN archives :) We have it in our history books at schools next to the description about the massacre in Jedwabne. So enjoy the lecture :P ;)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
2 Apr 2010 #131
Frankly Jedwabne and many other massacres were pinned on the german troops after the war ended and Germany couldn't defend herself anymore. I believe there are much more of that out there...no chance to get the truth out anymore but I don't believe the demonization of the german troops anymore either. *shrugs*

scrapbookpages/oradour-sur-glane/story/VincentReynouard.html

Essentially, Reynouard's crime was that he claimed that survivors of the Oradour massacre lied about the tragedy, and that the women and children were killed by an explosion in the church which was not set off by the Waffen-SS soldiers who were in the village that day. Contrary to Reynouard's revisionist claims, the women and children were burned alive by a fire that was set in the church by the Waffen-SS soldiers, according to the official story.

Marek11111 9 | 808
2 Apr 2010 #132
to blame Poles is all about money, the blame is shifting from Germans to Poles for holocaust
Jews want the reparation from Poland for what Germans did to them during war.
Germans paid now it's Poland turn, who will be next?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
2 Apr 2010 #133
I don't think it's about money anymore....it's about the precarious situation Israel is in right now.
Ironside 53 | 12,448
2 Apr 2010 #134
EchoTheCat: can read about 120 cities and villages where Jews were killed by Poles.

I wonder did they investigated in the same manner as in the case of Jedwabne ?!
The point is that Poles were killed by Jews and nobody seems to care, and secondly in how many cases Jews were killed because their were Jews, not for other reasons ?
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #135
Bratwurst Boy: ???

I meant your reaction was very predictable.

Bratwurst Boy: I don't believe the demonization of the german troops anymore either

We don't "demonization" your german troops, we know you will always be Nazis ;) (just kidding, don't bite)
In Polish press and public discussion there's no such thing like "scrambling history wounds" but actually we have problem with your "expellees". So for average Pole Erika Steinbach is far more interesting than Hitler :)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
2 Apr 2010 #136
EchoTheCat: I meant your reaction was very predictable.

As the board-German who else can bite! ;)

EchoTheCat: So for average Pole Erika Steinbach is far more interesting than Hitler :)

Yeah...she is still alive! ;)
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #137
Ironside: The point is that Poles were killed by Jews and nobody seems to care

Where ? When ? By who ? Facts please :)

Ironside: and secondly in how many cases Jews were killed because their were Jews, not for other reasons ?

What are you suggesting ? That Jews in Jedwabne were killed because of other reasons than religion ? In some way yes. Imagine you are one of citizen of Jedwabne. Your neighbor, Jew let say Levi, has a big house and land. So what will happen if you will kill Levi. The answer was: nothing. Because nobody cared about few Jews when million of them were dieing in Auschwitz. It sad but true but Jews in Jedwabne were killed only because of greed.
Harry
2 Apr 2010 #138
EchoTheCat: Where ? When ? By who ? Facts please :)

He is no doubt referring to the thousands of Poles who were killed post-war by communists who happened to be of Jewish origin.
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #139
Ok, thanks. But it doesn't explain our murders.
Harry
2 Apr 2010 #140
Sorry, who do you mean by 'our' and what do you mean by 'murders'?
ShortHairThug - | 1,101
2 Apr 2010 #142
EchoTheCat: Jew let say Levi, has a big house and land. So what will happen if you will kill Levi. The answer was: nothing. Because nobody cared about few Jews when million of them were dieing in Auschwitz.

You really have warped logic. How old are you? 6
MareGaea 29 | 2,751
2 Apr 2010 #143
You're getting a bit confused here, ironside. It's amazing how agressive you get when wrongdoings of the Poles get pointed out. Your answer comprises merely of highlighting the good things the Poles have done. While this wasn't the point of the discussion, nobody has said, including me, that this wasn't the case. But here:

Six months prior to the Kielce pogrom, during the Hanukkah celebration, a hand grenade had been thrown into the local Jewish community headquarters.

Source: absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kielce_pogrom

And if you call me a freaking hypocrite once again, I will definitively stop taking you seriously.

>^..^<

M-G (last chance)
EchoTheCat - | 137
2 Apr 2010 #144
ShortHairThug: You really have warped logic. How old are you? 6

:))
It was irony. But never mind...
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
2 Apr 2010 #145
EchoTheCat: Because nobody cared about few Jews when million of them were dieing in Auschwitz.

well, not precisely. There was not law in Poland at that time because of the war. I am sure there were other people killed who were not Jews and the murderers got away with it. The price of human life during the war is very low I am afraid.

EchoTheCat: It sad but true but Jews in Jedwabne were killed only because of greed.

One will never know what drives people to kill others, but you seem to know what drove Polish people in Jedwabne - interesting.

Harry: who happened to be of Jewish origin.

not all of them, some of them were Jews, the rest was Polish who killed their own brothers and sisters, but it is always better to blame ii on somebody else- what an old song.

ShortHairThug: You really have warped logic.

one is either logical or not. Logic cannot be warped. I am sorry but I am really pedantic in that regard.
ShortHairThug - | 1,101
3 Apr 2010 #146
It was irony. But never mind...

Help me out here, is it ironic that Jews were dying at Auschwitz at the time of Jedwabne?

1 The first transport of Jews from Bytom (Beuthen) in German-annexed Upper Silesia arrives in Auschwitz I on February 15th 1942, while Jedwabne in German occupied Poland happened in July 1941 and a Key Word here to remember is German occupied Poland plus the dates which obviously you have chose to ignore so Jews were not dying at Aushwitz as of yet as you claim. In fact since 1940 it was the Poles who were dying there and German political opponents, well ahead the first Jewsh transports.

2 The Nazis captured Jedwabne On September 2, 1939 and give it up to the Soviets at the end of the month. The Soviets occupied Jedwabne until June 23, 1941 when the Nazis took control of that region once again with the commencement of Operation Barbarossa and rule that region till 1945. Between 1939 and 1941, the Soviets confiscated all local enterprises and the land estates in the area. It should be obvious even to you that your theory of Levi the rich Jew with a big house and land that was coveted by blood thirsty Poles holds no water; he only exists as a figment of your imagination. Nazi administration did not fare any better, they had the policy to confiscate Jewish property even prior to the war and what do you think the end result might have been when they took control of the town once again. The very same fate laid in store for the Poles under both regimes.

What is ironic though is the nerve of some Jewish troll to accuse Poles of coveting his property while that’s what this very same Jew did all along. Many eastern Polish Jews had welcomed the Soviets, felt no loyalty to Poland and collaborated with the enemy. Perhaps here is as good of a time as any to mention prominent Belorussian Jewish historian Eugeniusz Rozenblat who writes about vast Jewish-Soviet collaboration in his works. Of course there’s no secret and it has been well documented fact that Jewish-Communist massively expropriated Polish properties under Soviet rule. Nazis often complained that Poles allowed the movements of fugitive Jews instead of turning them in. Those fugitive Jews in turn formed bands that robbed and killed Polish peasants especially in the Eastern regions, as it was in the Bielski brother’s case. Jews on mass joined subversive Communist units, provoking Polish counter actions in the process, such is the reality of war. Did the sporadic killings of Jews by the Poles ever happen? Of course it did, no one sane would deny it, however that in itself is no proof of vest anti Jewish hatred or collaboration or even anti-semitism, that was a part of the general lawlessness under brutal Nazi and Soviet occupation alike, you’re just too blind to see it.

I find it despicable that the descendant of a Jews who survived the Holocaust, thanks in part to his own ancestors criminal collaboration with the Soviets, for most of the righteous ones and good have perished in the Holocaust. The descendant of those who perpetrated those heinous crimes, those who were the caused of the deaths of millions of Poles and other even some of their own in Gulags and Siberia are crying foul play and accuse Poles of wrongdoing, making the mockery of innocent lives lost in the process. It’s people like you who shame the memory of those that lost their lives, be it a Jew or a Pole. Stay away from sensationalism, read some real history, discover some skeletons in your own closet, perhaps then and only then the memory of those that perished will be fully honored and not in vain. Then and only then the events of the pest will never have the chance to repeat themselves, perhaps I’m just asking for too much?
Seanus 15 | 19,674
3 Apr 2010 #147
A great post, sht. I don't like Poland being made out to be the scapegoat when they did their part in their own way. You are citing rational sources, others just lash out through emotion.
ShortHairThug - | 1,101
3 Apr 2010 #148
Usually it’s the emotions that rule this forum and I’m no different in that aspect, however since it is the time for reconciliation and the greatest of Holidays I chose more rational approach to honor the memory of John Paul II.
Bzibzioh
3 Apr 2010 #149
Emotions, agendas, lack of knowledge, populism, pure idiocy, manipulation of the facts ... you name it, it's all here. That was the post I wish I wrote. Congratulations and wesołegp Alleluja!
guzzler 1 | 88
3 Apr 2010 #150
Since many posters in here are not polish, not even half polish, and some haven't even been to Poland, it might not be too easy to identify with Poland when it comes to how poles think

On the 1st of September 1939 Germany invaded Poland with 1.8 million troops on three fronts. They had 2800 tanks 2000 aircraft, and they employed "Blitzkrieg" tactics bombing defenceless towns and refugees. It must have been terrible on the civilian population no where in Europe had ever experienced anything like this before. Warsaw was surrounded by German forces by the 14th, the soviets attacked on the 17th Warsaw surrendered two weeks later. Nobody expected Poland to hold out as long as it did the Polish Defence group, surrendered on October 5th after holding the German and Soviet troops on two fronts. The Germans lost over 50000 men 700 planes and 900 tanks. In 1961 in London I met lots of Free Poles who fought in Poland and all over Europe. The family who lived above me were Polish, we became firm friends and spend many nights together, talking about the war the concentration camp that Zorhca was in. And about the things Urick and his group did in the underground, all his family were murdered. Both Zorcha parents were murdered her father was a judge, her brother was the only one of a large extended family, who lived on in Poland and lived to see her free. You have every right to feel proud of Poland Dariusz, I am an Irishman and I am certainly proud of my Polish friends, alas nearly all gone now.

Regards


Home / History / Why did Hitler kill so many Jews in Poland?