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Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?

27 Jan 2017 #181
The most logical solution to the NE Prussia versus Lwow problem is this. Return Lwow and environs to Poland, I am sure most Ukrainians in the area would welcome Polish citizenship. Who the hell would want to live in a disfunctional state like the Ukraine? Poland gets to keep every area of confiscated German, or more correctly, Prussian land it took in 1945 EXCEPT that the Oder Neisse border is adjusted to the once suggested Oder Bobr Queiss border line. WHY? Because the great geographer Stalin took to the map with his red pencil and split communities of interest giving us the nonsence of halved towns like Goerlitz, Guben, Muskau and even Zittau. The only frontier towns would be Sagan and Lauban. Stettin stays Polish and the border around Swinemunde is increased slightly to include Kaminke and the nearby airfield. What does Poland get ... all of NE Prussia including Konigsberg and Pillau with a small adjustment to the border east of Insterberg to allow some return of LithuanIa Minor. The ethnic Russian and Ukrainian populations are offered Polish or Lithuanian citizenship to suit or paid compensation to move. The acquisition of a major port like Konigsberg can only enhance Poland as a maritime nation.The Germans get back a little bit of Silesia which is much more sensible than the potential return of an exclave like NE Prussia. With the return of Lwow the Poles get back a pivotal part of their history. I am sure that Germans and Poles have finished clubbing each other to death. They have more in common than either has been prepared to admit, but therein lies another story.
Marsupial - | 886
27 Jan 2017 #182
I can't see ukis, more of our fantastic neighbours, giving up a proper city as 2nd rate as it has become. After all they burned a lot of civilians for such things. But we are friends? Lol.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,235
27 Jan 2017 #183
WHY? Because the great geographer Stalin took to the map with his red pencil and split communities of interest giving us the nonsence of halved towns like Goerlitz, Guben, Muskau and even Zittau.

Except that your proposal is unrealistic, you are right that the Neise line as a border is not historic and its application resulted in halving the towns you mention.

The historic border between Silesia and Lusatia (Schlesien and Lausitz) is the Bobr-Queiss (Bóbr-Kwisa) line which lasted until the 18th century when the Prussians decided to adjoin some eastern Lusatian regions to Silesia.
Lyzko 29 | 7,230
27 Jan 2017 #184
Such a ridiculous thread topic post!

The entire concept of "returning" land never even established in codified written law as belonging to a people, except through oral agreement, is preposterous.
Crow 146 | 9,106
27 Jan 2017 #185
Its rather question when would be Slavic western territories- what is now Germany, be attached to Kaliningrad. If Poland don`t wish Slavic wetsern territories, somebody would wish. See, our people there deserve protection, human rights and democracy.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,235
27 Jan 2017 #186
our people there deserve protection, human rights and democracy.

What do you mean by "our people" and where are they?
mafketis 24 | 9,126
27 Jan 2017 #187
What do you mean by "our people"

Russians and Serbians (in that order)
27 Jan 2017 #188
To answer the questions : i think it is not possible. Too many population moved after WW2.

Kaliningrad ex Königsberg was completely destroyed during WW2.
In 1945, the red army was in fury against nazi germany and decided to annihilate major Prussian cities.
The aim to destroy the city was not military but clearly to eradicate as many as germans as possible. Why ?
Because the russians suffered millions of dead. Lot of prussians left the city for germany by boat.
Many german boats sinked in the baltic at the time. Boats containing sometimes a majoity of children (

10 000 people died in one day in that boat. Half of them were children.

After the war Kaliningrad (ex Königsberg) was empty and USSR decided to move people sometimes as far from Siberia to Kaliningrad .
People in Kaliningrad have no links whatsoever with Germany. However nowadays the city tries to revive his pre WW2 history in order to boost tourism.

The city has not much to offer for germans tourists(not much hotels and original buildings) but it is a start.
I don't think Russia will give back ever this city.
Marsupial - | 886
28 Jan 2017 #189
Its just some type of romantic notion about land and kingdom. The English are going through just such a romantic delusion themselves at the moment. Soon to end in tears.
Lyzko 29 | 7,230
28 Jan 2017 #190
How true:-) On the same subject, how comical for Britain's former colonies to be given back to her Majesty's Empire!
Marsupial - | 886
28 Jan 2017 #191
Haa haa yeah come and get the colony. Her majesty, a talking tourist attraction and fossilized relic.
28 Jan 2017 #192
In reply to przyjacieIPL ... you are correct in what you say. We all know what the Germans did in Poland and Russia, equally, we all know what the Red Army did in Germany. I would go one step further and say that the primary defeat of the nazi regime was because of Russian blood, sweat and tears. Without the Red Army the war would have dragged on for years and it is doubtful that the British and Americans could have launched an invasion in Western Europe until well into 1945, by then Poland would have been a distant memory. This is the one and only time communism worked well. Ruthless central planning with ruthless application, in fact it saved the Russian people and if we could but admit it, it saved us all. Russia deserves its place in the sun ... and it is taking it anyway. It is only a matter of time before the Russian ethnic areas of Eastern Ukraine return to Russia, leaving a rump Ruthenian state with no access to the sea. The Bylorussians would willingly follow thereafter. As for the Germans, they worked out long ago that the best way to invade a country is with refrigerators and BMWs. If the Bundeswehr swung into action you would all die ... of laughter! However this still does not change the fact that staying with Russia, NE Prussia is an exclave ... returned to Germany it is still an exclave. Ceded to Poland the ports of Pillau and Konigsberg would blossom as they served a hinterland consisting of the whole of Central and NE Poland. As for the million or so Kaliningraders they could easily be absorbed. How many migrants have flooded into Germany and been integrated in the last 40 years ... Russians, Volga Germans, Poles, Turks etc.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Jan 2017 #193
What do you mean by "our people" and where are they?

Germans and most of other western Europeans are nothing but assimilated Slavs (ie Sarmatians). Now, one shouldn`t question their `new assimilated ways` as long as they don`t threaten rest of the Slavs. But, in situation when they represent problem to rest of Slavs, one may suggest that people there deserve to be liberated. After all, they are people on which foreign ways were forcible imposed. Therefore, they do need freedom, human rights and democracy, to be able to see reality and have free choice. Not to mention that exactly western Europe started with preach about human rights and democracy. I think that they needs to get exactly that. Literally.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Jan 2017 #194
In my opinion EU and NATO leading powers destroyed possibility of Poland`s regain of Lwow. At the moment when ethnic Ukrainians for the first time in their history pledged to form their own ethnic state, all who had interest to say something needed to react. That time was in moment of maiden. Back then Poland didn`t react properly to protects her own interests.

Poles should thank to their corrupt politicians and to false friends from western Europe. Sure, to Clinton`s clan, too.
mafketis 24 | 9,126
28 Jan 2017 #195
n my opinion EU and NATO leading powers destroyed possibility of Poland`s regain of Lwow

You cannot "destroy" what doesn't exist. There would have been no way for Poland to "regain" Lwów (Lviv) short of military invasion and staggering loss of life. I know Serbians don't care about triviliaties like that, but Polish people do.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Jan 2017 #196
Please, forget about mainstream media propaganda.

Anyway, it is always best to offer negotiations. Exactly what Serbians always do. Sure, its always a question what other side may do. If they war, you are forced to war too. In any case, Poland had chance to open the question quite legitimately, when Ukraine went maiden, telling to Ukrainians- ``you want your own ethnic state?. Fine. We support you. Just, let us talk about what`s really yours and what could belong to Poles. Here is how we Poles see this and this, here are historical facts.....``
Velund 1 | 364
31 Jan 2017 #197
Just, let us talk about what`s really yours and what could belong to Poles.

... and to Hungarians, Russians, Romanians.

Map of Ukraine

If someone like to build mononational ukrainian state - feel free to do it, but on territory that come to Russian Empire in 1654 as Ukraine (see on the map)...
Crow 146 | 9,106
31 Jan 2017 #198
... and to Hungarians, Russians, Romanians.

I would tend to agree with you, but not entirely.

We Slavs, if serious, for example serious as Jews are, can`t disregard fact about term such is `our ancient Slavic (ie Sarmatian) land`. So, essentially, we talk about Slavic land, in which case, Hungary and Romania don`t have to be asked about anything in the region. As a Serbian, I have every respect for Hungarians and Romanians, but, those are facts.

See, what we know for certainty is that what is now Ukraine and Crimea, represent lands that belong to Slavs (ie Sarmatians) since time immemorial. In other words, if for any reason, Slavs on those lands can`t live together, they do have right to separate along ethnic lines (or call it tribal lines). Some with bigger rights- those who are natives and some with lesser rights- those who have only historical rights. In this case, most probably that we can`t say that all Slavs there have rights as natives and as historical entities. Most probably that only Serbians there deserved some historical rights (established their own historical provinces escaping from Balkan during Ottoman invasion). I`m not sure are Poles (Polani) represent native Slavic tribe of the region (feel free to correct me if I`m wrong), to say that way, or they same as Serbians acquired certain historical rights in the region, in some other circumstances.

So, in situation when ethnic Ukrainians forming their own ethnic state for the first time in their history, they have every right to do so. But, they must consult about borders with other native Slavs in the region. First, with Ruthenians and then with Russians, too. Then comes the talks with Poles and Serbians, who have historical rights, how to compensate them, if there are demands. In my opinion Poles could be compensated by some territory and Serbians, considering obvious geographical reasons could be satisfied with some constitutional mention of their rights in Ukraine- rights on cultural autonomy, preferable status of their business in their ethnic regions, etc, etc, possibilities.

All others, non-Slavs, who have some demands, aren`t in situation to pressuring. If successors (after land is divided, new borders established) of what is now Ukraine can afford to do that, they should compensate Hungary and Romania, if those countries deserve that, by some other means, without being obliged to give territory.

In my opinion, neither Hungary, neither Romania deserve historical rights to claim anything. Why? As nations, Hungarians and Romanians were by force of invaders formed on native Slavic ground even if we speak about territory of Hungary and Romania. Still, what they from Slavs deserved with time, is level of some respect and they should get it.

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