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A History of Gdansk, Poland


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
24 Jan 2019 #121
Naja...the Lübeck Law gives a town self-government, that what makes them a free,independent city. It would be logical that all taxes paid stay in the city...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck_law

I had to smile at that:

....There are several examples from the Middle Ages in which burgomasters of Hanseatic League cities were sentenced to death for unsuccessful politics.

The more I learn about it the more I want this back....

This model of a city government provided that only the most experienced, influential and personally most successful merchants - and a few lawyers, called Syndics - became members of the Rat. It was also a rule that a father and his son, or brothers, could never be members of the Rat at the same time, so that influential families could not get too large a share of influence on the city's politics.
Spike31 2 | 2,155
24 Jan 2019 #122
It seems they remember better what he did...

Everything they've said about Kohl could be said tenfold about Margaret Thatcher or John Paul II. Those statements need to be put in a wider context.

Even me, if I tried hard, could say something good about Polish-German relations, like economical exchange perhaps.

That doesn't change the fact that throughout history they were terrible and that Poland had much better relations with many other countries. Put things in a wider perspective.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
24 Jan 2019 #123
Poland had much better relations with many other countries.

...and guess what? These countries were further and far away...the further away the better the relations.

That isn't only true for Poland or Germany, that is true for all nation states. Neighbours very rarely make for good relationships. They share the same space, the same "sphere of influence", there are natural rivals...

And of course "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies too...making for longstanding adversaries.

I bet when Poland and Germany had not been sharing the same flat plain, without any natural boundaries, we would had been best buddies throughout history (or at least disinterested aquaintances) and you would talk the same way today about....say....France!

That's one of the historic unsaid laws the EU was about to change for good, to put a stop on it. And Helmut Kohl tried it too...
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
24 Jan 2019 #124
I bet when Poland and Germany had not been sharing the same flat plain, ... we would had been best buddies throughout history

I think Pilsudski made a huge mistake in 1933 when he signed the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_Non-Aggression_Pact

At the time Poland was militarily stronger than Germany and destruction of Germany would have prevented the subsequent German destruction of Poland....

So much for Non-Aggression pacts....
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
24 Jan 2019 #125
At the time Poland was militarily stronger than Germany and destruction of Germany would have prevented

Hmmm....doubtful. Had Poland attacked it would had gone done in history as the aggressor, providing Hitler and Stalin with much better PR....in the end nobody would probably later declared war on Germany on behalf of Poland...which would had given both of them a total free hand.

Do you think Poland could had occupied the whole of Germany?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 Jan 2019 #126
Danzig it has been the german Hanse since 1263 under Lübeck Law

nah, it got a German elite after 1306 when Teutonic order massacred residents of Gdansk and invited settler from various places in the holy roman empire, technically they were romans lol!

such a deeply polish town!

Well, it Polish city do doubts. like residents Turks or whatnot doesn't make a German city today Turkish.

By the way beside language or whatnot there was different mentality and attitude towards identity and loyalty in those times. Modern one stared to develop at the end of 18th century and in 19th century.

Given Gdansk example - in 1794 when Prussia too over the city majority of residents including 'German' elites were very much against it.

In 1918 when a Free Danzig state was created - residents were against it. Not only 100 years of brainwash in schools as said but also views loyalties and such changed and that contribute to that change in attitude.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
24 Jan 2019 #127
In 1918 when a Free Danzig state was created - residents were against it.

Yeah...because it was a german town by then...part of Germany. Making it a free city again was part of the Versailles Treaty with a heavy nod towards the new Poland.

The residents wanted to stay Germans in Germany but nobody cared what they wanted. Suddenly they were cut off and not even a direct connection aka the Corridor was possible. Poland didn't want that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

...The Free City's population rose from 357,000 (1919) to 408,000 in 1929; according to the official census, 95% were Germans...

..The Treaty of Versailles required that the newly formed state have its own citizenship, based on residency. German inhabitants lost their German citizenship with the creation of the Free City, but were given the right to re-obtain it within the first two years of the state's existence. Anyone desiring German citizenship had to leave their property and make their residence outside the Free State of Danzig area in the remaining parts of Germany.[4]

No wonder Hitler was so popular in Danzig, this treaty and these kind of "laws" made his rise so easy and predictable..
gregy741 4 | 1,204
24 Jan 2019 #128
since you are such fan of german town law,i got one interesting for you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drzyma%C5%82a%27s_wagon

this particular law,required every polish person to move hes house 1 meter every 24 hours.or lose hes property to new german settlers.
you got nerve to whine about lost german properties...ohhh you almost got me cried
your ppl been doing that kinda s.hit in posen,pomerania and prussia for centuries.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
24 Jan 2019 #129
No wonder Hitler was so popular in Danzig, this treaty and these kind of "laws" made his rise so easy and predictable..

It was such a stupid treaty. It was obvious that they wouldn't be able to create any sort of Danzig identity, and city states were way out of fashion by the time the Free City came about.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 Jan 2019 #130
Yeah...because it was a german town by then...part of Germany.

Sure, but then here a big word - partitions of Poland.

There was never change in hell that Poland would agree to be cut off from the Baltics sea, right in the middle, the estuary of the river Vistula. So the will of residents doesn't change much and doesn't means much as it didn't in 1794. Its geopolitical and strategic interests at play. It is rather a German state that had been extended too far to the east a waaay beyond its strategic boundaries and a geopolitical place. It was only possible due to the fact of disappearance of the Kingdom of Poland. A freak accident not a rule.

.The Treaty of Versailles

dude, you cry so much about that treaty. How unfair it was. Well, it is a question of a perspective and you know as a German and a Prussian you shouldn't be so hasty to call others on not being fair.

Contributions? After Franco- German war in 1870 Germany not only annexed French territory but imposed a huge contribution on the Frenchies that allowed them to build up the German infrastructure and manufactures.

Loss of the land. Come on - when it comes to the east it wasn't loss if you compere it to the border from the 1772. Yes if you compare it to the border from the 1914 that is a great lose. So here let me pose a question - why would you do that if you are not a German nationalist? eh?

From the Polish perspective it was only a restitution - not even a gain.. Hell Poland didn't even get Gdansk back. My take on this is that you have no cause to whine about it. Not really.

That was expulsion, de-population, exchange of population or whatever you want to call it including theft of their properties by victors "law" !

Not really. If there were some irregularities that goes both ways. Ante bellum Poland wouldn't have that big German minority it had if your story were 100% correct.

Is not as if Germany wouldn't or didn't do the same and worse if the circumstances were reversed.


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