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A History of Gdansk, Poland


jon357 67 | 16,836
23 Jan 2019 #91
It was a good idea of economical cooperation between cities and trade guilds.

It was quite a lot more than that. It had huge economic power that meant that any issues of sovereignty (remember that this was before the modern concept of nationhood or the nation-state) were largely moot.

Have you ever heard Stockholm being called a "German city"

Remember that different polities had differing statuses in and relationships with the Hansa.

marxist foundation

There's nothing Marxist about the EU.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #92
lives german traditions, eats german dishes, reads german poetry, dances to german music...would you call it a "German city"?

I'll trade you a question for question: In Poland we have plenty of Ukrainian economic migrants. Many great of them moved to Wroclaw in south-west Poland. It it an Ukrainian city in your opinion then?

It had huge economic power that meant that any issues of sovereignty ... were largely moot.

Yet, it was under administrative and political rule of the state of Poland.

There's nothing Marxist about the EU.

Everything it's neo-marxist about the EU. Starting with the founder of the whole idea, an Italian communist Antonio Gramsci up to a recent erection of the Monument of Marx in Trier, Germany in 2017
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
23 Jan 2019 #93
There's nothing Marxist about the EU.

Fuhrer Merkel, the leader of the EU was a Communist:-

In 1968, Merkel joined the Free German Youth (FDJ), the official communist youth movement sponsored by the ruling Marxist-Leninist Socialist Unity Party of Germany.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Jan 2019 #94
Fuhrer Merkel, the leader of the EU was a Communist:-

You do realise that joining the FDJ was pretty much unavoidable for young people in East Germany? If you didn't join, you were effectively excluded from universities, school trips, good schools, your parents would also suffer and so on. It wasn't a case of "oh, I fancy being a Communist, so I'll join". The mass membership was a direct result of it being the only way to ensure a decent education in East Germany.

It certainly wasn't comparable to senior PiS member Stanisław Piotrowicz prosecuting dissidents in the PRL.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #95
plenty of Ukrainian economic migrants. Many great of them moved to Wroclaw in south-west Poland. It it an Ukrainian city in your opinion then?

Nope! :) Of course not...

Neither becomes a german city in NRW muslim just because a growing muslim ghetto there, no matter what the doom-sayer want.

Do you think the Germans moved into a fully polish city like the ukrainian economic immigrants?

Seriously...living in a dictatorship doesn't give you much choices when you want to have a life and a career...you say what they want you to say...doesn't mean ****!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Jan 2019 #96
He lived his whole life in the comfort of the UK, where no such decisions had to be made.

If Merkel was as bad as he wants to claim, why would Wessies vote for her? Clearly German voters are smart enough to understand that for the majority of East Germans, they did what they had to do.

No doubt "bolek_tusk" will tell us that he would be honourable enough to refuse to shoot an escaper at the border, too.
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
23 Jan 2019 #97
Stop putting your words in my mouth.

It sounds as though you are projecting your own unacceptable ideas onto someone else.

A common Bolshevik tactic.
jon357 67 | 16,836
23 Jan 2019 #98
Yet, it was under administrative and political rule of the state of Poland.

The 'state' of Poland (like any other 'state' at the time) didn't mean much at all. It had a miniscule population, a loose grip on power and little ot no concept of nationhood. Hansa naturally called the shots.

Everything it's neo-marxist about the EU.

Rubbish. The EU is if anything capitalistic. Marxixsts generally loathe it. Nevertheless, it's great that there's a statue now in Trier, birthplace of one of history's most significant economists and historians. There's one in London too.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #99
Do you think the Germans moved into a fully polish city like the ukrainian economic immigrants?

Yes, some Germans were invited between XII and XIV century to settle down in different parts of Poland, including Pomerania.

Then more were invited with to Polish lands Teutonic knights by a Prince Konrad of Masovia. Once the Order was destroyed, the people remained on those lands. One of the worst mistakes in Polish history if you ask me. Almost like inviting 2 millions muslim "refugees" to Germany by Merkel.

Fast forward and more of them were a result of an enforced germanisation of Poles in Prussia during XIX century.

And now when you walk around a city you'll not hear German at all. Unless you encounter German tourists. You'll surely recognize them 'cause they're fat and smell of sauerkraut :-P
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #100
Yes, some Germans were invited between XII and XIV century to settle down in different parts of Poland, including Pomerania.

Invited by whom? :)

Okay....it seems I have to repost it:

Just a hint...this long list during the centuries starts with one

Swantopolk II. (1195-1266)

The founder of the german settlement!

When you read that list you will see no polish names who could have "invited" Germans....maybe Johann Ferber? The mayor of Danzig till 1501? But he was German....hmm....

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Pers%C3%B6nlichkeiten_der_Stadt_Danzig

When you really want to refute the fact that Danzig had been always a german city full of german people you can surely post a list of famous polish Danziger living and working in polish Danzig, right?

Just in case you think this list biased by them mean Germans...there is a similiar, albeit much shorter list in the english Wiki:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Gda%C5%84sk

The first mention of a non-German is from 1620...

Bogusław Radziwiłł, 1620, Prince of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Reichsfürst of the HRE, governor of Ducal Prussia

Spike, your claim of Danzig for Poland is nothing else but what happened during the partitions to Poles. Outside political decisions didn't made proud Poles now suddenly overnight to proud Germans, Russians or Austrians either.

Unless you encounter German tourists. You'll surely recognize them 'cause they're fat and smell of sauerkraut :-P

Well...losing the countenance so quickly? :)
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #101
There's one in London too.

Yes, a small bust on his gravestone in Highgate Cemetery. That's bit different than erecting a 6 meter tall monument in a center of a city in AD 2017.

The EU is if anything capitalisti

You have no idea...

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Pers%C3%B6nlichkeiten_der_Stadt_Danzig

A list of German-named citizens of a Gdansk. What of it?

Many bürgers were invited to Poland since Polish society was run predominantly by nobility (and minor nobility) who lived in their countryside manors. There was a deep need for bourgeoisie in big cities which was filed by foreigners, mostly Germans. Poland has provided them with good opportunities since they came and stayed.

Does that change the fact that the city under political and administrative control of Poland? No, it doesn't.

Here's a full timeline of Gdansk and to whom it belonged throughout the history:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Gda%C5%84sk
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #102
A list of German-named citizens of a Gdansk. What of it?

Germans in a german city under german law! Not more, not less

Poland has provided them with good opportunities since they came and stayed.

Nah...in the case of Danzig it has been the german Hanse since 1263 under Lübeck Law, not Poland which made Danzig and the other baltic ports wealthy, which in turn drew ever new citizens in like moths to the flame.

You can see it's prosperous past still in the now renovated architecture, which connects Danzig to the other Hanse-Cities along the Baltic. Something the fat and Sauerkraut smelling german tourists had been admiring. :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck_law#Cities_with_L%C3%BCbeck_law

Again...neither as Danzig became a member of the Hanse nor for centuries after....not one Pole made it to the list of known Danziger people during these times, not one!

Astounding, isn't it, for such a deeply polish town!
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #103
I'm not going to continue with pointless post exchange if you're not willing to accept a simple historical fact that Gdansk was under political and administrative rule of Poland. Just check the sources.

Something the fat and Sauerkraut smelling german tourists had been admiring. :)

Nah, I'm just making fun. Making a comparison between the nazi propaganda posters and the descriptions of "german ubermensch" and the real-life German tourists walking on the streets of Polish towns is nothing short of amusing.

I mean, where all those supermen gone, right? :-) Most of them were close to half-foot shorter than me (and I'm not a giant, I'm 187, my younger brother is taller than me), some of them with beer bellies. Hardly any of them square-jawed. Are you sending us a second-class Germans or it it that the best you've got?

Or maybe you want us to drop our guards? :-P Sneaky
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #104
I'm not going to continue with pointless post exchange

A white flag would be acceptable too... :)

I mean, where all those supermen gone, right? :-)

Maybe the pure Aryans looked once like that, but after all that mixing you got us...heh:)

Do you fall for propaganda easily?
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #105
Maybe the pure Aryans looked once like that, but after all that mixing you got us...heh:)

TBH, I think they were never there. Just an absurd obsession of a couple of maladjusted, and maybe even physically deformed people who managed to sell their insanity to the whole society.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #106
TBH, I think they were never there.

Yeah....could be....there has been written so much crap, I'm not an expert and don't plan to...
gregy741 4 | 1,204
23 Jan 2019 #107
Germans in a german city under german law! Not more, not less

not sure you understand what "german law" meant in Poland.
this law was introduced by polish kings to attract colonization.mainly from germany,but not only german..any colonist would fall under this law
people under german law would be exempted from taxes and have other privileges.

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ius_Teutonicum
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolonizacja_na_prawie_niemieckim
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_town_law

this doesnt mean that those cities were german.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #108
not sure you understand what "german law" meant in Poland.

I meant the Lübeck Law...the Law which made Danzig a Hanse-City...the reason for its prospering future as a merchant hot spot and for becoming a free and independent city for centuries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck_law

So...you are of course correct, a town without any Poles innit, full of Germans, under german law, member of a german trade organization is of course not a german town, can't be!

*bowing out here of that topic*
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
23 Jan 2019 #109
It is rather interesting how succesful German laws and regulations were and how they acted as an example to many cities in Eastern Europe.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdeburg_rights

Kind of how many German laws and regulations have been adopted by the EU.

Like DIN

din.de/en/about-standards/din-standards
gregy741 4 | 1,204
23 Jan 2019 #110
becoming a free and independent city for centuries.

you talking utter rubbish,adopting the law from germany doesnt make city german.
Gdansk was not free and independent city..this is bs.
there were 2 major rebellions in Gdansk against polish king authority,and both were put down.
during sigmund august and stephan batory rule

a town without any Poles innit,

this is bollocks
them germans never learn the lesson.you had once unfounded claims toward your neighbor territories..how did that end for you?

you are of course correct, a town without any Poles innit, full of Germans, under german law

boy..the only times that this city was german(very short periods),were as result of direct and violent aggression by Germans.period.
if they were german citizens ,maybe you would explain ,why they always fought against any attempts by germans to control this city.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk

In 1440, Danzig joined the nearby Hanseatic cities of Elbing and Thorn (Toruń) to form the Prussian Confederation, which in February 1454 seceded from the Teutonic Order's rule and recognized the suzerainty of King Casimir IV of Poland.

Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #111
It is rather interesting how succesful German laws and regulations were and how they acted as an example to many cities in Eastern Europe.

And especially specially since Germany isn't known for successfully exporting its values to other countries in a recent times. And voluntarism seems to be a foreign idea to Teutons :-P

What has worked in the past was a free trade (Hansa) and movement of people (settlements - but only to the point when it became a political weapon)

Aggressive indoctrination and attempts on domination on the other hand like germanization, some insane reich projects, and now an export of an aggressive leftist political agenda and migrant quotas are destroying this reserved relation that was pragmatically established between our countries.

The way I see it the only real platform of communication between Poland and Germany is an economical exchange. As long as Germany won't destroy it with another aggressive political move.

Poland and Germany was never a love story and it never will be. But it could become a story of mutual economical benefits.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #112
this is bollocks

Oh why don't you just read the thread..it's all there...sometimes twice or thrice reposted...there you find your answers.

A short google for famous people from Danzig or Gdansk will open your eyes...maybe...or not...I don't care...I'm out here for good.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
23 Jan 2019 #113
yup...and probably like 99% of those people despised any attempt of prussian or german to germanize Gdansk.
vast majority of citizens of Gdansk in late medieval,moved there cus it was tolerant city. tolerant laws and privileges granted to them by polish kings in order to attract people.

they proved again and again that they wanted to have nothing to do with teutonic or prussian brutal,totalitarian germanization.and their unfounded claims to this city,based on their greed and sense of superiority.

most of em would spit on you if they read what you write here.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
24 Jan 2019 #114
Danzig initially resisted Prussia not of any cultural reservations, (which given that the city was completely German in character by then is a ridiculous notion) but because they enjoyed so much autonomy under the dying PLC. No other state could have offered them the same deal (the weak central authority was the main reason for Poland's decline) though Frederick eventually appeased them. Nationality back then was an abstract concept to begin with, the best indication what kind of language was spoken, and that was German back then.

Germany isn't known for successfully exporting its values to other countries in a recent times.

It actually is. There is no Western European country that played a larger part in reestablishing democracy in the former Warsaw pact states. The Kohl sponsored charities and German constitutional lawyers were consulted drafting the drafting process of several constitutions.

Poland and Germany was never a love story and it never will be.

We shall see. Each subsequent generation is less likely to harbour past resentments, and there has already been a significant long-term improvement. Once the Kaczynski generation is gone and the Erasmus generation has taken power, everything will be possible. Depending on how Poland develops and if it can attract part of its' diaspora back, it could change rather rapidly. So no need for pessimism here.
Lyzko 29 | 7,258
24 Jan 2019 #115
Jon,
Germans, like many nationalities, frequently adapt other countries' names in order to suit their own pronunciation patterns. It need not be for strictly imperialistic reasons.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
24 Jan 2019 #116
There is no Western European country that played a larger part in reestablishing democracy in the former Warsaw pact states.

Are you serious now, or just playing naive? :-P

The democracy in Poland started with 10 million adult people signing up to Solidarity while still under communist rule. That was the first such a massive movement in the whole of the East Block (and as a side note, it was also aggressively opposed by the East Germany).

And later on with a controversial round table agreements.

If anyone from the outside of Poland had a significant impact on those changes that would be Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II.

Helmut Kohl? That's a joke :-) Stop forcing this distorted Teuton-centered version of history. It's PolishForums, not DeutscheForums, this won't fly here :-P
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
24 Jan 2019 #117
There is no Western European country that played a larger part in reestablishing democracy in the former Warsaw pact states.

And not only. We shouldn't underestimate their role in Slovenian and Croatian independence, though Germany did get Bosnia very badly wrong. That's understandable though, as everyone else did as well.

Germany was a huge influence over Poland in the 1990's. There's way too many examples to note, but for instance, Germany was pushing for Poles to have visa-free access to the common visa-space of the countries that were preparing to implement Schengen. Germany was also the catalyst of CEFTA, which did a lot to prepare Poland and others for joining the EU.

It's hard to understand just how large the German contribution has been to Poland.

The democracy in Poland started with 10 million adult people signing up to Solidarity while still under communist rule.

And died very quickly under martial law. Solidarność were finished by the mid 1980's, and would have remained finished if it wasn't for Gorbachev. Had the Soviet Union been in a much better place economically, Poland would still be under Soviet rule today.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
24 Jan 2019 #118
It's PolishForums, not DeutscheForums, this won't fly here :-P

The historical truth should be independent of any kind of nationality. Kohl deserves a lot of credit for the succesful transformation of Eastern Europe to a democratic state. It was him who supported it via economic and political help, and he was the one who e.g. specifically supported the Eastern Enlargement of the EU to strengthen democratic structures there (unlike the Brits who typically did it in their attempt to widen and weaken the EU.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
24 Jan 2019 #119
Helmut Kohl? That's a joke :-)

I found that interesting...by Beata Szydlo (nobody can accuse her of being an german agent:) about Kohl:

...Helmut Kohl, the statesman, the friend of Poland, the outstanding politician with great merits to the German reunification and building the United Europe
...
...the Head of Government also wrote that Helmut Kohl had been particularly close to the Poles.

premier.gov.pl/mobile/en/news/news/prime-minister-beata-szydlo-about-helmut-kohl-we-will-always-remember-his-commitment-to.html

or Duda:

..."Kohl was a great human and politician who influenced the shape of contemporary Europe, including Polish-German relations based on mutual respect and partnership", President Duda told PAP in Strasbourg.

It seems they remember better what he did...

president.pl/en/news/art,484,kohl-was-a-great-human-and-politician-who-influenced-the-shape-of-contemporary-europe.html
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
24 Jan 2019 #120
A short google for famous people from Danzig or Gdansk will open your eyes..

Just wondered if all these famous people from Gdansk paid taxes, and who would have been the recipient of those taxes...


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