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A History of Gdansk, Poland


Sikorawski
22 Jan 2019 #61
What do you guys think of this article?

salon.com/2013/03/24/my_inappropriate_relationship/

lol at these quotes:

"I don't remember it with anger. I still remember the initial deliciousness of getting what I wanted, of feeling truly desired for the first time, and in such a transgressive and erotically charged way. "

"I found his bed and stood over him, trembling with adrenaline. What if he sent me away? What if he didn't? Finally, I reached out and touched his bare shoulder. When he opened his eyes, he didn't seem surprised at all. "

"I recently spent an afternoon at the beach with a friend and her 12-year-old daughter. I noted the sharp lines of the daughter's body (perfection, by our media's standards), so like my own at that age. She was dazzling and precious and still unaware of the ruckus she was causing among the male onlookers."
jon357 67 | 16,836
22 Jan 2019 #62
Yes from the province of the Polish Kingdom. Thank you.

Prussia has always been much more than any undistinguished local kingdom in terms of revenues, self-government, stability, culture and lasting achievements. Thank you.

It was typical for that time period people and organization

It was completely untypical and very different to the less-developed polities further inland; that is visible even today.

Face it Iron, this time you backed yourself into a corner...

Only this time??!?
mafketis 24 | 9,161
22 Jan 2019 #63
It is an American sentiment which stem from the fact

Maybe a little, but in practical terms I think it's mostly irrelevant. It can be interesting for historians but has no current relevance. For Gdańsk I look at its recent past.... German before WWII and part of Poland after WWII as part of a broader redrawing of borders... fine, that's all that matters. Anything that happened further back is irrelevant in discussing the current status of Gdańsk as a Polish city (and the desire of an overwhelming majority of its residents for it to remain that way).

It's like Russians who try to justify their (still) ambitions to take over most of Ukraine as Novorossija because of Kievan Rus - it's nonsense.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
22 Jan 2019 #64
Only the Poles could denigrate such achievement and this constantly moves me to despair how ******* lame those people are.

I know we are a terrible lot the commies and Nazis both agreed with you, we are only good for slave labour and should never be allowed to control the beautiful country that we live in. Don't worry Doug when you are king you will be free to replace us with those in your opinion are more deserving.
mafketis 24 | 9,161
22 Jan 2019 #65
Don't worry Doug

Meh, as I've mentioned his rhetoric here about Poland shows how assimilated he is. Go to any online newspaper and look at the comments... Just as Dirk "I am _too_ a real Pole!" Diggler consistently argues like an American Doug consistently uses Polish style rhetoric (an observation which probably does not endear me to him...)
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
22 Jan 2019 #66
weren't you just saying that it will still be a big mess in 50 years.

Yes unfortunately. Seriously big money required. Take a walk on the waterfronts. We're talking hundreds of millions. Euros, that is. That's going to take some time......

Doug consistently uses Polish style rhetoric

And you employ a perceived haughty knowing style on every thread, but I won't hold it against you. I come here for an argument:)

you will be free to replace us with those in your opinion are more deserving.

Well, first of all Poles sneer at Walesa, when millions of them sat at home - did nothing to fight the system - and grew their pumpkins, and were ******** their pants they were so scared of the authorities (or thought that communism was alright in some ways). And now they sneer at Adamowicz.

The above two of which are worth more than the lot of them combined. Is that clear enough?
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
22 Jan 2019 #67
Take a walk on the waterfronts. We're talking hundreds of millions. Euros, that is. That's going to take some time......

A couple of weeks ago, I was walking along the bank of the Motława and couldn't help but notice how quickly the apartments on the other bank had sprouted up. There is serious money flooding into Gdansk and it is developing in leaps and bounds.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
22 Jan 2019 #68
I was walking along the bank of the Motława

Good. Next time take a cycle, or my labrador and go for a really long walk, and you see that Gdansk, in real terms, is still quite ruinous. If Scottie (local poster) were around he would affirm to that I would guess. That is the real task facing someone like Adamowicz, and it really is a case of step by step. It was those pesky Russians wot dun it.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
22 Jan 2019 #69
Correct...one of the oldest cities in (actual) Poland...but not one of the oldest polish cities! Small but important difference! :)

It is worth noting that the first source giving the name of Gdańsk is recorded in Ioannes Canaparius's "Vita sancti Adalberti episcopi Pragensis (Life of St. Adalbert of Prague)" written in 999, just just two years after Adalbert's death received from the pagan hands on the territory of Old Prussia (not to confound with German Prussia). In the book, Ioannes says that Adalbert took the route along the Vistula River to reach the Baltic Sea and "urbem Gyddanyzc".

It is also worth noting that the Latinized form of the name used in the book almost perfectly mimics the contemporary Polish name GDAŃSK (GYDDANYZC) and the town itself is referred to as "urbs/urbem" (city). Although the borders of the then Polish state were only vaguely described as of the year 991 in the document called "Dagome iudex", the city of Gdańsk may be well said to have been placed within the borders of Poland drawn in this document.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
22 Jan 2019 #70
they sneer at Adamowicz.

No they don't, we had a remembrance here in my small town thousands turned up including people I know that sit on the right when it comes to politics, the man had good intent and worked hard for his city and people, and that's what we respect, and something that is above politics.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
22 Jan 2019 #71
we had a remembrance here in my small town thousands turned up

Excellent. Good people. They are everywhere, otherwise we could wrap it all up and all leave again. I was referring to the retired coal miner, representing many, who was spoilt by communism - because he could see himself as "a little bit above others", and so never wanted to think for himself (hence the reference to the pumpkin and being content with his lot, yet he had the temerity to rant at Walesa re: the age old - and typically post communist - conspiracy theories).

No time for those people at all.
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
22 Jan 2019 #72
Well, first of all Poles sneer at Walesa,

Whatever Adamowicz may or may not have done, it pales into insignificance with what collaborator Bolek did....The one that claims he single handedly created Solidarność and got rid of the Soviets, and now he is calling for stronger links.

I was at the 37th Anniversary of the Gdansk Solidarność agreement in 2017, and no one from Solidarność had a good word to say for Walęsa.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
22 Jan 2019 #73
the city of Gdańsk may be well said to have been placed within the borders of Poland drawn in this document.

Very interesting research Ziemowit. Wonderful, as far as origins go. I am a son of the Anglo-Saxon chief name of Snot, from the settlement of Snotengaham, as it was in Saxon times. However Nottingham has moved on since then, and was made famous throughout the world by Brian Clough and Nottingham Forest football club..The present city of Gdansk is built on Hanseatic trade in the same way, whether we like it or not. Bratwurst is making the clumsy point that the city is German built. Ain't that a fact.

no one from Solidarność had a good word to say for Walęsa.

Of course not. We all have seen the BBC documentaries from the 1990s. Nobody likes an egotist like Walesa. I don't know anything apart from what people/family have told me and what I saw on these programmes. Never read about the guy. He was as ill educated as many of those he was dealing with on the other side of that famous table, which might just have been why they were happier than dealing with him as a central negotiator than someone who spoke in academic gobbledygook.

I presume you have seen that picture on the table in room A2 of the Solidarity museum, where Kaczynski's face is highlighted and all others are blurred.

Ridiculous and dangerous revision of history and this country has obviously learnt nothing from Soviet occupation.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
22 Jan 2019 #74
German before WWII

gdansk was not german before 2 world war..your ignorance is shocking...spawn this idiocy somewhere else
ever heard about free city of gdansk?administered by Poland
Prussians were not Germanic either..they were Baltic tribes. germanized gradually
learn basic history ,then open your mouth
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
22 Jan 2019 #75
I presume you have seen that picture on the table in room A2 of the Solidarity museum

No, but will look out for it next time I'm in Gdansk... How come the President of Gdansk allowed that since he couldn't stand the man?
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
22 Jan 2019 #76
learn basic history ,then open your mouth

I could tell you where Poles lived in Danzig - but you would be too ignorant to grasp it. It was a German city, and you can bleat like a flock of sheep. It wont change that fact. Free port or not.
Lyzko 29 | 7,258
22 Jan 2019 #77
gregy741,

As your doubtless aware, much of current Poland was in fact under Germanic control for centuries. For this reason, most Polish towns have two official names, one German and the other Polish, e.g. Hellberg/Jasna Gora etc.....
gregy741 4 | 1,204
22 Jan 2019 #78
It was a German city, and you can bleat like a flock of sheep. It wont change that fact. Free port or not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

As your doubtless aware, much of current Poland was in fact under Germanic control for centuries.

centuries? i though Poland participation took p-lace in 19 century and ended 100 years later.
sure wroclaw become german since 1370,and Prussia since Teutonic conquest.tho you cant call teutonic prussia german really.they were germanized gradually and prussia was often hostile to german provinces.

prussia become german from bismarc times onward
OP bolek_tusk 3 | 234
22 Jan 2019 #79
@jon357

parablesblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/are-you-afraid-of-muslim-encroachment.html

This was from 2013. Updated figures would show how much more Muslim the world has become in a few short years.

Good luck with your German Caliphate. I don't expect a Polish Caliphate this century unless PO get back into government.
jon357 67 | 16,836
22 Jan 2019 #80
Updated figures would show

A weird source for the original. Feel free to fear your own shadow.

And nothing to do with the history of Gdańsk, though that city has been the home (and organisational centre) of Polish Muslims for some decades not.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #81
In its over 1000 years history - 1022 years to be precise - Gdansk has belonged to Poland for 712 years and to Germany for 271 years. That includes 146 - more than a half - years of Teutonic order occupation in XIV and XV century which has ended with 13 Years War won by Poland. The culminating Battle of Grunwald was the biggest battle of medieval Europe and is still being celebrated every year in Poland on the very same fields near Grunwald.

The city has flourished the most when it was part of Poland [1466-1569] and Polish Commonwealth [1569-1793]

So much for "german" Gdansk..


PS: Years excluded from calculations:

13 years of 13 Years Teutonic War when lands were swapped between both opposing sides
19 years of Free city of Gdansk between WWI and WWII
7 years of Free city of Gdansk during Napoleonic wars
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
23 Jan 2019 #82
The city has flourished the most when it was part of Poland [1466-1569] and Polish Commonwealth [1569-1793]

For many of those years, Danzig was mostly German in culture ( as were its' influential families) and its' rise was thanks to its' membership to the Hanse.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
23 Jan 2019 #83
yes..that culture was introduced in Gdansk for the first time in 1308
rzez gdanska:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rze%C5%BA_gda%C5%84ska

more in english if anyone interested:
google.com/search?q=gdansk+massacre+1308&rlz=1C1ASVA_enGB772GB772&oq=gdansk+massacre+1308&aqs=chrome..69i57.5791j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

in regard of slavic migration,i think i found contemporary record of it happening.:
youtube.com/watch?v=UqGBRGTIpGk&feature=youtu.be
Ironside 50 | 10,922
23 Jan 2019 #84
Prussia has always been much more than any undistinguished local kingdom in terms of revenues, self-government, stability, culture

Dude, Royal Prussia was a province of Poland, Ducal Prussia were as vasal of the Crown with those revenues and whatnot you mentioned above. It was a backwater with only one mayor city and a port - Konigsberg. Look, you don't know so shut up and stop showing off.

The first Protestant semi-state due to the grace of his Royal majesty the King of Poland, the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Duke of Ruthenia, Prussia, Mazovia, Samogitia, Kiev, Wolynia, Podolia, Podlasia, Smolensk .......

Maybe a little, but in practical terms I think it's mostly irrelevant.

Sure thing. Never claimed otherwise. I and BB going a long time on PF and we have our debates all the time. In practical terms is irrelevant.

For many of those years, Danzig was mostly German in culture

As were many cities in the Kingdom of Poland, yes elites of Gdansk were mostly German in culture or that culture dominated in those prominent circles. Yet the dominant culture in the province was Polish like elites and their culture were Polish.

--- Gdansk became that prosperous due the fact it has been the mayor port for the Polish trade they at time fed half of Europe.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #85
Danzig was mostly German in culture ( as were its' influential families) and its' rise was thanks to its' membership to the Hanse.

I don't recall any city named "Danzig" in Poland. Surely you mean Gdansk.

The fact that Gdansk under Polish rule benefited from trading and being part of commercial confederation named "Hansa", just like Stockholm or Riga did, proves nothing.

Now port of Gdansk is part of Maersk international line. Does that mean it belongs to Denmark? :-)
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
23 Jan 2019 #86
Its present affiliation has nothing to do with the past. The city belongs to Poland now, you really should not feel so insecure to rewrite history here. ;)
jon357 67 | 16,836
23 Jan 2019 #87
I don't recall any city named "Danzig" in Poland. Surely you mean Gdansk.

It's been both in it's time, and may yet be something else entirely at some point in the future.

"Hansa", just like Stockholm or Riga did, proves nothing.

It isn't about 'proving' someone's idea; it's about the long (and not yet finished) history of the city, a place that long predates the concept of nation states.
Spike31 2 | 2,163
23 Jan 2019 #88
Its present affiliation has nothing to do with the past. The city belongs to Poland now, you really should not feel so insecure to rewrite history here. ;)

I'm in such a comfortable situation that I don't have to rewrite history [pun not intended]. I'll just stick to facts. Cause there should not be any misunderstanding between friends, right?

Gdansk under Polish rule benefited from trading and being part of a confederation of a merchant guilds named "Hansa". Yet that doesn't make it politically nor administratively a "German city". Yest Obviously, being a major port of Poland for centuries it benefited even more from serving the vast lands of Polish Commonwealth, so Hansa wasn't the only, and not even a major, factor which helped it to grow.

It's the same thing with the EU now, when common Germans are thinking that they are doing us a favour, when in fact it's just their industrial complex looking for new markets and skilled labour force. And obviously in the long run they would like to eliminate the competition, which I think will backfire on them once Poland complete building the sufficient infrastructure and industrial complex :-)

You should visit Poland anyway, since you've mentioned before that you have Polish blood in you. Maybe you'll open up a little bit and reconnect with your Slavonic inner self. It may change your life. But don't try to communicate in German while in Poland, you will be more successful even using a Klingon language :-)

it's about the long (and not yet finished) history of the city, a place that long predates the concept of nation states.

It was a good idea of economical cooperation between cities and trade guilds. Yet that didn't entitle the providers of this idea to any special political or administrative rights over the lands involved in a trade. Have you ever heard Stockholm being called a "German city" because it was part of Hansa? Me neither.

If only a modern EU was more of this kind of cooperation without those neo-marxist foundations I would be much more content.
jon357 67 | 16,836
23 Jan 2019 #89
It was a good idea of economical cooperation between cities and trade guilds.

It was quite a lot more than that. It had huge economic power that meant that any issues of sovereignty (remember that this was before the modern concept of nationhood or the nation-state) were largely moot.

Have you ever heard Stockholm being called a "German city"

Remember that different polities had differing statuses in and relationships with the Hansa.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
23 Jan 2019 #90
...Have you ever heard Stockholm being called a "German city" because it was part of Hansa?

I posted all of it in another thread already but before I repeat all that I would ask you something... if a population of a city speaks german, follows german laws, has german names, lives german traditions, eats german dishes, reads german poetry, dances to german music...would you call it a "German city"?


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