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Does Poland deserve credit for the 1989 Revolution?


Harry
6 Aug 2009 #1
A somewhat stupid question but an interesting article nonetheless.

Random quote:

An arrow -- painted in the red-and-white colors of both Poland and Solidarity -- points from the section of the shipyard wall toward the imported section of the Berlin Wall.

spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,640562,00.html# ref=rss
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
6 Aug 2009 #2
"Poland has lost the battle over memory"..
You Germans simply marketed yourself more effectively

That sounds soooooooo polish!!! Complaining...blaming...
OP Harry
6 Aug 2009 #3
No, soooooo Polish is blaming the British!
Ziemowit 12 | 3,667
6 Aug 2009 #4
No, soooooo Polish is blaming the Polish!!!

Anyway, I've just been reading a most funny story in connection with the Polish always blaiming and complaining ...

The Polish embassy in London has just complained against the advertisement of "Volkswagen Scirocco TDI" in Jeremy Clarkson's programm "Top Gear" on BBC2. - "We understand that Jeremy Clarkson often makes fun of other nations, the French and the German in particular - says attaché Robert Szaniawski - but this time we think he has gone off limit". The advertisement shows the Polish people in a panic run to trains and buses, leaving their unfinished meals in canteens. All this desperate panic is caused by the supposed German attack on Poland in September 1939.

A big title appears then on the screen "Volkswagen Scirocco TDI. Berlin to Warsaw in one tank".


And indeed, the Polish blame the British again (it is so good they do not blame the Germans this time)!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
6 Aug 2009 #5
...The Polish embassy in London has just complained against the advertisement of "Volkswagen Scirocco TDI" in Jeremy Clarkson's programm "Top Gear" on BBC2...

Oh god...just loosen up guys!

If it's a solace to you Clarkson likes to have a go at the Germans too...:)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
6 Aug 2009 #6
Bratwurst Boy:
That sounds soooooooo polish!!! Complaining...blaming..

No, soooooo Polish is blaming the British!

We had a few spats on the forum where Poles were blamed for the expulsions of Germans. Blame was painted all over Poles by both of you.

BBoy, you went so far as telling us how you grandma could not even put her shoes on before being expelled.

Could you fill us all in on how that is Poles complaining?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
6 Aug 2009 #7
We had a few spats on the forum where Poles were blamed for the expulsions of Germans

Well...they did it, didn't they....

BBoy, you went so far as telling us how you grandma could not even put her shoes on before being expelled.

I did NOT want to sound whining and complaining that's why I left it at a short mention.
Just to show that I KNOW what I speak of because my family was in the midst of the things so to speak...period.

Could you fill us all in on how that is Poles complaining?

Oh please...Clarkson makes jokes about everybody, either they laugh too or ignore him....now the Poles feel miffed and all hell breaks loose, getting even politics involved.

What's next? Demanding an apology? That Clarkson loses his job???

You are not making friends that way...
z_darius 14 | 3,968
6 Aug 2009 #8
Well...they did it, didn't they.

No, they were the beneficiaries of the expulsions imposed by the US, UK and USSR, and executed by the Soviet Army, of which Poles were a small fraction.

Oh please...Clarkson makes jokes about everybody

I don;t mind jokes, and I don;t mean Clarkson.
I mean your continuous comments about Poles complaining.
Have it occurred to you that perhaps if Germans stopped complaining about the war they started and lost Poles would be left with little to complain about Germans?

As for the credit for the fall of communism, I'd place East Germans somewhere at the end of the parade. They were the staunchest supporters and brown-nosers of the USSR and when the real wall was already down they put up a great show for the camera. Becuase by then cameras were already allowed in the good ole' DDR.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
6 Aug 2009 #9
I mean your continuous comments about Poles complaining.

I actually meant the recurring theme about "Poland betrayed".
I'm now over a year here on PF and I can't count the threads anymore...

Now again, the "bad" Germans "stole" the glory from the polish freedom fighters....

As for the credit for the fall of communism, I'd place East Germans somewhere at the end of the parade. They were the staunchest supporters and brown-nosers of the USSR and when the real wall was already down they put up a great show for the camera. Becuase by then cameras were already allowed in the good ole' DDR.

Well...the GDR had an outlet in the case of West-Germany. During the whole time of the existence of the GDR, the most unruly did go west wards...to keep the pressure down in the kettle so to speak.

Eastern Germans always made their choice clear with their feet...why do you think the wall came up in the first place? :)

For me the Russians play also a good role in this. I believe without Perestroika the tanks would had crushed everything again.
I know that the east german gov in '89 begged Moscow to use the army to keep the state together...Gorbatschov declined...

PS: Oh and at least I'm able to identify them as Germans, not as some communists from Mars.
Reading some polish posts one could think some strange marsians opressed the good polish people all the time...
OP Harry
6 Aug 2009 #10
No, they were the beneficiaries of the expulsions imposed by the US, UK and USSR, and executed by the Soviet Army, of which Poles were a small fraction.

Always somebody else to blame eh Derek?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
6 Aug 2009 #11
I actually meant the recurring theme about "Poland betrayed".

Now again, the "bad" Germans "stole" the glory from the polish freedom fighters....

The subject is "credit" not theft.
It seems that we're moving into the times where Germans will be praised for their peaceful efforts to get hold of some corridor, only to save Poland some 50+ years later by abolishing communism.

Bad, bad Poles. If only they agreed to be annihilated.

Always somebody else to blame

Poles don't not blame the big 3 for the expulsions of Germans. Germans don't either.
Germans, and you, blame Poles.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,667
6 Aug 2009 #12
Anyway, me as a Pole, I would like to drive Volkswagen Scirocco TDI, Berlin to Warsaw in one tank, in spite of whatever those bad Germans (and of course the not less bad British) may feel about it ...
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
6 Aug 2009 #13
Feel invited (the other way around too I mean)...:)
lesser 4 | 1,311
6 Aug 2009 #14
There was not any revolution in Poland at that time. It was a controlled transformation.
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #15
Germans are masters of the universe in creating national myths.
Today they speak of "German antifascists" and 1953 "revolution" in Berlin. Tomorrow - and take it for granted - we will hear a great story of German anti-comunist underground in the GDR.

Allzeit bereit !
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #16
Germans are masters of the universe in creating national myths.

How so?

How did Germany "steal" the glory from the Poles??? Some german anti-polish conspiracy?
Tell me? How did we do that??? How did the german gov control what the international news should are showing?

But some links please...usual polish paranoia just doesn't cut it!
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #17
How did Germany "steal" the glory from the Poles???

Have I mentioned Poles or Poland ?
All I say is: Germans tend to create myths which are hardly in line with historical truth.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #18
Germans tend to create myths which are hardly in line with historical truth.

HOW???
Tell me??? That's what the topic is about, isn't it?
Germany stealing somehow "again" the glory from the Poles for 1989!

HOW??? Do you really think Germany has any influence over the international news broker? Forcing the journalists at gun point to show the wall instead the shipyard in Danzig? HOW???

*waits expectantly*

Germans tend to create myths which are hardly in line with historical truth.

Well...that they have in common with the Poles and most other peoples I think...nothing unusual about it! :)
Ziemowit 12 | 3,667
7 Aug 2009 #19
All I say is: Germans tend to create myths which are hardly in line with historical truth.

Yes, another myth is that Silesia was German for nearly 800 years, while the province was grabbed from Austria only as late as in 1741.
Crow 137 | 7,830
7 Aug 2009 #20
Who Deserves Credit for the 1989 Revolution?

outside of Poland, Yugoslavia and Serbians must be mentioned here
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #21
Yes, another myth is that Silesia was German for nearly 800 years, while the province was grabbed from Austria only as late as in 1741.

Even longer actually :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#History

History

Silesia has been inhabited from time immemorial by people of multiple ethnic groups.Germanic tribes were first recorded within Silesia in the 1st century....

Then:

...
In the Middle Ages, Silesia was divided among many independent duchies ruled by various Silesian dukes of the Piast dynasty.
During this time, cultural and ethnic German influence increased due to immigrants from the German-speaking components of the Holy Roman Empire....

Next:

...Silesia subsequently became a possession of the Bohemian crown under the Holy Roman Empire in the 14th century, and passed with that crown to the Habsburg Monarchy of Austria in 1526.
The Duchy of Crossen was inherited by Margraviate of Brandenburg in 1476 and, with the renunciation by King Ferdinand I and estates of Bohemia in 1538, it became anintegral part of Brandenburg...

And so on...
Germans have always lived here...Slavs were the late comer...as usual!

It needed the nice and brave and saintly Poles to end that.
Your history school really sucks!
If there is a people believing in lots of myths about their past and their national character it's the Poles...I prove that again and again here!
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #22
How did Germany "steal" the glory from the Poles??

Once again:
I'm not referring to the "stolen glory" problem.
Perhaps my posting was little off topic.
Bur recently I had a long discussion with some young Germans who were deeply convinced of the GDR-leadership in fighting communism.
Amusing ?

the province was grabbed from Austria only as late as in 1741.

Yep.
It has got exactly the same "Prussian tradition" like Poznan or Wielkopolska lol.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #23
I'm not referring to the "stolen glory" problem.

Well that was the topic with you following with an anti-german platitude again (as usual).

Now I want some hard support for your comments...to much asked for? You chicken?

It has got exactly the same "Prussian tradition" like Poznan or Wielkopolska lol.

Well...everything in what is now Poland has germanic roots! We were there first (well...after the celts that is).

So..such a comment is never wrong! :)

Bur recently I had a long discussion with some young Germans who were deeply convinced of the GDR-leadership in fighting communism.

Well...you also seem to happen to know only Germans who wish the wall back up or who detest the Ossis etc.
If I'm honest I don't believe you anymore...you lost the plot! :(
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #24
If I'm honest I don't believe you anymore...

Bad for you.
You are losing possibility to learn at least something about Alemania.

Good for me.
No need to search for links.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #25
You are losing possibility to learn at least something about Alemania.

You telling me at least how Alemania could "steal" the glory from Poland??? As you know everything about my fatherland it seems!

You are a typical Pole Borrka, all hot air and a big mouth - no substance! And always ready to blame everybody else..
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #26
ou telling me at least how Alemania could "steal" the glory from Poland??

Was not my point. Sorry.

As you know everything about my fatherland it seems!

Yes, I do.
Definitely.

You are a typical Pole Borrka

No doubt about that.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #27
Yes, I do.Definitely.

Well, then you should know that Germans prefer polish platitudes and generalizations and falsifications and also your common crap with links and evidence....so please keep that in mind for the next time you plan to put your foot into your mouth!
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195
7 Aug 2009 #28
You are a typical Pole Borrka

Am I a typical Pole, BB?

I recall that it did appear in the States (everyone knows, I think how wonderful their primary schooling is), people seemed to think the Berlin Wall falling was the single event that led to the downfall of the USSR or something. All kinds of strange and ridiculous notions about the whole deal, from my (superior, and better-educated) perspective.

But I do also recall a dinner-table conversation with the father of a Brazilian friend of mine (all immigrants, they liked to speak Portugese around the house), who actually knew a great deal about WaƂesa and Solidarity and the like. He even mentioned that as a youth, they held Solidarity marches throughout the streets of Brazil (for they had their own dictatorship to protest at the time), complete with Polish flags!

Quite intelligent folks, too (the man's son could beat me in chess... that is -highly- unusual... we had the same mentor), yet, thoroughly surprised and skeptical when I informed them that I was not, in fact, Jewish. =/
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,045
7 Aug 2009 #29
Am I a typical Pole, BB?

I don't think so..we can actually communicate with each other..exchange knowledge etc.

Borrka has only anti-german platitudes for himself...

people seemed to think the Berlin Wall falling was the single event that led to the downfall of the USSR or something. All kinds of strange and ridiculous notions about the whole deal, from my (superior, and better-educated) perspective.

That may be...I'm not disputing that.
But it is in no way true that the Germans or the german government had any influence about that.

It's in my view again a very polish thing to blame Germany for everything...THAT is typical polish!

And that is not the only example....if an American talkshow hosts tells a polish joke - the fault of the Germans.
If an english tabloid calls Auschwitz a polish camp - the fault of the Germans and so on and so on and so on.
Now this...of course Germany is behind CNN showing the wall if they want to tell something about '89...suuuuuuure!

Who is obsessed here?
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195
7 Aug 2009 #30
But it is in no way true that the Germans or the german government had any influence about that.

Hell, I'm not blaming Germans... I, personally, blame the US education system.

I don't think so..we can actually communicate with each other..exchange knowledge etc.

I don't, either. I don't think I'm typical of much of anything.

Borrka has only anti-german platitudes for himself...

It's in my view again a very polish thing to blame Germany for everything...THAT is typical polish!

I do, however, think my father's pretty typical, politically, as those who grew up in Warsaw in the 50's and 60's go, and he spends significant time complaining about how Poland should be more like Germany.

Who is obsessed here?

Yeah, well. The people running the country right now are not very smart and have not yet realized that, for Poland, any publicity is good publicity except for self-induced publicity. They got it backwards, and are trying their hardest to ensure that Poland brings up the image of a harmless, innocent, extremely yappy and brain-dead Poodle dog.


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