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"Poland's Concentration Camp" ??


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
16 May 2008 #121
Erm...maybe there is a misunderstanding here?

It was a time as concentration camps where seen common and useful (remember it started with the Brits and the Boers).

No, the Poles had nothing to do with Auschwitz and Treblinka etc. (and they couldn't have even if they had wanted - besides themselves getting killed in there that is).

That was all ours (the Germans)doing.

Yes, concentration camps did exist after May 1945.
(As it was still seen as something usable)
Only that now the inmates changed. And the gassing stopped too but else it surely can't have been like a holiday and many died too.

So...ummm...what was the problem here again?
celinski 31 | 1,258
16 May 2008 #122
Yes, concentration camps did exist after May 1945.
(As it was still seen as something usable)

And Polish were still being killed within them as it was now occupied by Stalin vs. Hitler.
Harry
16 May 2008 #123
IT WAS PRISON for people who invaded Poland Nazis and Commies. I am proud of it.

You are proud that Poland ran a concentration camp where people were imprisoned without trial and routinely tortured? Oh, sorry, I forgot who I was talking to, of course you are proud of it.

As for whether it was a prison or a concentration camp, let's see what respected academics have to say about it. From your Wikipedia link

A number of modern non-Soviet sources have also characterized the facility as a concentration camp, including Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, the Library of Congress, and the Polish Nobel prize-winning author Czesław Miłosz.[11][12] [13] Ukrainian sources such as Kubijovych and Idzio representing the Ukrainian Nationalist camp of the interpretation of History also catagorize Bereza Kartuska as a concentration camp.[14] Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski who also calls it a concentration camp notes that is establishment of the facility was a norm of its times, similar to camps estabilished by Americans for Japanese during WWII, by Canadians for Ukrainians during WWI [...]

Who to believe: an uncredited unknown writer on Wikipedia or the Library of Congress? Who to believe: Lukasz 'I'm proud Poland imprisoned people without trial and tortured them' or Norman Davies?

Jews, Commies, Nazis, they're all untermenschen when compared to the glorious, pure, innocent Pole, eh Lukasz?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #124
It was prison for commies Nazis and other criminals. The fact that 20 of them died means nothing for me. Why you put word Jews. It wasn't prison for Jews majority of prisoners were Poles and the fact that some were Jews means nothing there were Polish criminals and Jewish. Yes I am proud that Poland holded commies and nazis before WWII in prisons. IMO Germans or Russians could do the same and XX century would be much better for world.

don't you agree? imagine ourself Hitler and Stalin in prisons like in Poland. Ehhh

I am proud of it.

17 priosners died ... hmmm when we look what Nazis had done in Europe or Commies it doesn't look bad.

again I am proud.

Ok I see that we started to talk about Poles against Jews and Jews against Poles.

So lets see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labor_Union

Poland and Lithuania became independent in 1918, and the Bund continued to operate in these countries, particularly in the heavily Jewish towns of West Belarus that became part of Poland [...]

This Jews were not commies (socialists it is little difference) they were with us. Fighting agains Nazis and later Commies. We love this Jews. Good Polish citizens.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
16 May 2008 #125
Yes I am proud that Poland holded commies and nazis before WWII in prisons

Umm...Poland had Nazis before WWII???

Honest question here...
celinski 31 | 1,258
16 May 2008 #126
Who to believe

Intervention of the Embassy of Poland in Paris against the term "Polish concentration camp" used on the memorial plaque for Aron Skrobek. December 2007, Paris.

msz.gov.pl/Intervention,of,the,Embassy,of,Poland,in,Paris,against,the,term,%E2%80%9EPolish,concentration,camp%E2%80%9D,used,on,the,memorial,plaque,for,Aron,Skrobek,14381.html
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #127
Umm...Poland had Nazis before WWII???

There was pary like this in Poland . Durring WWII they were fighting agains Germans but they weren't cooperating with other anti German groups. So maybe ultra nationalists is better term.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
16 May 2008 #128
silly old me

Yes indeed, silly you. Germany and Soviets partitioned Poland for the fourth time, western parts were annexed by Germany and estern parts by Soviets.

Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

enjoy!
celinski 31 | 1,258
16 May 2008 #129
As for whether it was a prison or a concentration camp, let's see what respected academics have to say about it. From your Wikipedia link

I think you should do some reading, you are unaware of what the price was the Polish paid. Believe me if this camp was to be a "concentration camp" like the ones run by "Soviets" or "Nazi's" I think you would see a few more than 20 deaths.

worldatwar.net/timeline/poland/18-52.html
Harry
16 May 2008 #130
Intervention of the Embassy of Poland in Paris against the term „Polish concentration camp” used on the memorial plaque for Aron Skrobek. December 2007, Paris.

OK, who helped Carol log on again?

Wow Carol, the Polish government deny that the government of 'free' pre-war Poland ran a concentration camp! Who woulda thunk it?!

The vast majority impartial observers are lining up on this one and they are not supporting Poland's claim that the camp was a "seclusion" camp. It was a concentration camp. As usual Poles and Poland refuse to face up the dirty bits of their past. At least the average Austrian has the decency not to argue about what that country was like from 1935 to 1950; they just have amnesia about it and so are unable to have any discussion. The average Pole has to argue that everything was somebody else's fault and anything which appears to be the fault of Poland is all Communist/Nazi/Jewish lies.

like the ones run by "Soviets"

You mean like the ones which were running in Poland with 100% Polish staff up until 1956?
As I was saying, nothing is ever the fault of the Poles and they never did anything wrong either, that's the classic Polish line.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #131
Harry

you silly boy (as to pre WWII Poland)

PRISON FOR CRIMINALS

ULTRA NATIONALISTS OR COMMIES OR OTHER CRIMINALS !!!

Not concentration camps.

You mean like the ones which were running in Poland with 100% Polish staff up until 1956?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Jaworzno

Since February 1945, the camp initially served the NKVD and then MBP as a prison camp for so-called "enemies of the nation" (wrogowie narodu). Some of them were German POWs (separately members of the Waffen-SS), while others were thousands of local German, Volksdeutsche, and Silesian civilians from Jaworzno, Chrzanów, and elsewhere in Silesia. There were also Poles who were arrested for their opposition to Stalinism, including members of the AK and BCh non-communist and WiN anti-communist Polish resistance organizations.

One of the commandants (since 1949), was a Polish Jew Solomon Morel, who previously gained a reputation for cruelty in the camp in Świętochłowice. Others included Stanisław Kwiatkowski, Ivan Mordasov and Teofil Hazelmajer.

very Polish names of commanders..

NKVD WAS SOVIET NOT POLISH ORGANISATION

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD

so discuss about facts.
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249
16 May 2008 #132
Google Bereza Kartuska and read about Poland's very own concentration camp.

A prison for political prisoner in which only 17 people died? Not quite Auschwitz is it? Harry, I for one don't deny that Poland was not innocent and pure in this whole matter but no one was. And it is inescapably clear that the machinery of the Holocaust was forced upon Poland and was not created from withen her. As for this camp being a "concentration" camp or an "internment" camp or anything else, that is a silly semantics argument. The fact of the matter is that it was not a camp designed to kill its inmates, unlike Nazi and Soviet camps and we are comparing less than 20 people to over 6 million!
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #133
Harry why you talk about anti Semitism in Poland when Jews who wanted to be good Polish citizens could be them

ONECE AGAIN

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labor_Union

The General Jewish Labour Union of Lithuania, Poland and Russia, in Yiddish the Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund in Lite, Poyln un Rusland (אַלגעמײַנער ײדישער אַרבעטער בונד אין ליטע פוילין און רוסלאַנד), generally called The Bund (בונד, from German

You claimed that AK was hunting on Jews ... and it seems that some Jews were members of AK ...

The latter included Marek Edelman, who, in 1976, became an activist with the Komitet Obrony Robotników (Workers' Defense Committee) and later of the Solidarity movement. During the period of martial law in 1981, he was interned. He took part in the Round Table Talks and served as a member of the Sejm (Polish parliament) from 1989 until 1993.

how other your statements look when we see some facts.
celinski 31 | 1,258
16 May 2008 #134
Believe me Harry you don't really want me to start posting the full truth of what was happening to the "Polish" and by whom from 1935 to 1950. Sept. 1939 Poland was attacked from all sides this date was not the start of Polish being killed. If you really believe Polish were the great big monsters than more power to ya. I am sure you don't bother to read posts from victims that are Polish.

Facts are there for you to read, Poland fought until the end. Seems to me what keeps your mouth flapping is the truth coming to light about how Poland was really treated even by the biggest of victims.

Did you know Polish were silenced to speak of the crimes commited by Soviets? Do you know what about took place in Ukraine 1941 and by whom? If you feel an occupied country is the same as free one than I pity you.

You say you are in Poland (which I for one do not buy) and slander the country that has fought for your freedom. Personally I can't believe your sorry but* has not been tossed out. Maybe you are still here for entertainment. You go from post to post insulting, whining and swearing.

Wonder why they changed it Harry?

As a result of the intervention the inscription of the memorial plaque was changed as follows:

"Here lived hiding Aron Skrobek called David Kutner - syndicalist, imprisoned in the Bereza Kartuska seclusion camp (Poland) - 1934/35. Editor of the Jewish newspaper "The New Press". Founding member of the resistance organization "Solidarity", the Jewish section of the MOI (the World Workers Movement) in September 1940. Deported to the Nutzweiler - Struthof concentration camp during the action "Night and Fog". Killed 21 July 1943 in the place called "the Death Gorge".

worldatwar.net/timeline/poland/18-52.html
Harry
16 May 2008 #135
NKVD WAS SOVIET NOT POLISH ORGANISATION

And the MBP? As in " the camp initially served the NKVD and then MBP". Who were the MBP? Poles, they were Poles.

Harry why you talk about anti Semitism in Poland when Jews who wanted to be good Polish citizens could be them

Provided they were happy to sit on the ghetto benches in the segregated Polish universities. Of course the few who got in because the number of Jews was strictly controlled, wasn't it. And provided that they didn't want to be doctors or lawyers (couldn't join the professional associations for those) or work for the government or claim state welfare.

Although Poland needs to be thanked for her anti-semitism: if it weren't for the discrimination they faced here, many Jewish academics might have stayed and so been slaughtered in the holocaust.

You claimed that AK was hunting on Jews

At no time did I say that. The AK did not hunt Jews, other resistance organisations did.

Facts are there for you to read, Poland fought until the end.

Poland, first to fight (and first to surrender).

Sorry Carol but your joke has worn thin for one day. I'm off to the pub. Enjoy whining about whatever you'll whine about tonight.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #136
And the MBP? As in " the camp initially served the NKVD and then MBP". Who were the MBP? Poles, they were Poles.

"One of the commandants (since 1949), was a Polish Jew Solomon Morel, who previously gained a reputation for cruelty in the camp in Świętochłowice. Others included Stanisław Kwiatkowski, Ivan Mordasov and Teofil Hazelmajer."

Mordashov Hazelmajer Morel definately are not native Poles.

Provided they were happy to sit on the ghetto benches in the segregated Polish universities. Of course the few who got in because the number of Jews was strictly controlled, wasn't it. And provided that they didn't want to be doctors or lawyers (couldn't join the professional associations for those) or work for the government or claim state welfare.

they could be doctors and lawers. There were jewish officers in army.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Military_Union

Żydowski Związek Wojskowy (ŻZW, Polish for Jewish Military Union) was an underground resistance organization operating during World War II in the area of the Warsaw Ghetto and fighting during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It was formed primarily of former officers of the Polish Army in late 1939, soon after the start of the German occupation of Poland.

Easy_Terran 3 | 312
16 May 2008 #137
Norman Davies

I was browsing the net to find any info about pre-war concentration camps established by the Poles and ran by them, couldn't find any, so can you tell me what's the title of Davies' book? I'll read it.

Whilst browsing, I found a site about camps ran by JEWS, though.

Sack was shocked with what he found in his seven years of research on the subject: 60,000-80,000 Germans and Poles were murdered in Jewish-run concentration camps, "more than the number of [Jews] who died at Belsen and Buchenwald.

"Jews," says Sack, "were sometimes as cruel as their exemplars at Auschwitz, and they even ran the organization that ran the prisons and ... the concentration camps for German civilians in Poland and Poland-administered Germany ... "

Sack notes Jewish torturers sticking toads down peoples' throats, whippings, and some victims buried alive in potato sacks. A hundred non-Jews at the Myslowitz concentration camp, for instance, were murdered each day; the death rate in some Jewish-controlled camps was 80%.

From different site, a comment by a user:

it must be difficult to be a jewish youth indeed.

sums it up, doesn't it, Harry?

Poland, first to fight (and first to surrender).

You are truly twisted and vicious dude.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #138
At no time did I say that. The AK did not hunt Jews, other resistance organisations did.

Ok I see that good Jew from Poland is Jew

and bad Jew is Pole ...

so when change it

Jewish Ghetto Police (German: Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei, Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst), also known as the Jewish Order Service and referred by the Jews as the Jewish Police, were the police units organized in the Jewish ghettos by the local Judenrat councils under German Nazi orders. The Jewish Order Service was also active in some of the Nazi concentration camps.

SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 May 2008 #139
I might have it all wrong but isn't Judaism just another religion that anyone can join ? you people seem to be to literal in your obsessions.

every step we take we must gain, hold in the pressure, releasing the pain.
there are good and bad people everywhere.
Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.
There are many accounts in my Irish history of Irish landlords being worse than the brits.
Use your own common sense
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249
16 May 2008 #140
Davies' book?

It's called God's Playground. It's terrific. Really the greatest Polish history book printed in English. He has many books about Poland and is the preeminant English speaking Polish historian. However, it's not simply a love letter to Poland like Carol or yourself might like, his books are honest and place blame where it is due, but unlike our biased friend Harry it isn't cruel and is reasonable.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
16 May 2008 #141
place blame where it is due

That's how the book on history subject should be written, isn't it?

Edited:
Thanks, Bathory!
:^)
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249
16 May 2008 #142
No problem it's a great history book in two volumes. It's really enjoyable although it is a bit slow.
Harry
16 May 2008 #143
"One of the commandants (since 1949), was a Polish Jew Solomon Morel, who previously gained a reputation for cruelty in the camp in Świętochłowice. Others included Stanisław Kwiatkowski, Ivan Mordasov and Teofil Hazelmajer."

Mordashov Hazelmajer Morel definately are not native Poles.

So you mean that because they had Jewish names, they could not possibly have been Polish. That says all that needs to be said about you: you view Jews and Poles as two separate races. To you a Jew can not be a Pole and vice versa. That is because you are what is referred to as a bigot.

they could be doctors and lawers.

Provided they were happy to sit on the ghetto benches in the segregated Polish universities. Which were introduced before or during the war? And provided they didn't want to join the professional associations which regulated and validated those professions. And, of course, provided that they could get a place in universities which strictly controlled the number of Jews who would be permitted to pollute the hallowed Polish halls of learning with their presence.

sums it up, doesn't it, Harry?

Precisely. As I have always said: some Jews were good, some were worse than the vast majority of the Gestapo. Unfortunately you rarely met a Pole who will say the same about his/her people.

Harry:
Poland, first to fight (and first to surrender).

You are truly twisted and vicious dude.

Don't blame me for what they take pride in. Or what they refuse to accept any responsibility for.

Ok I see that good Jew from Poland is Jew

Not to me. To me he/she is a Jewish-Pole.

and bad Jew is Pole ...

Sorry but he/she is still a Jewish-Pole.

I know that this doesn't fit into your racist view, which you have repeated on this very page of this thread, of people who have Jewish names not being able to be 'native' Polish. Just as you doubtless view anybody who has black or yellow skin as being unable to be Polish - unless they are really really good at football by Polish standards of course (i.e. unable to hold down a place in an English Premier league side staring down the jaws of relegation and then sent back to the Greek league).

there were some organisations who hunted Jews

Damn right. And some of them were Jewish. I hope that if there is a god; because if there is a god, there must be a hell and they will burn there for all eternity. Pity that you can not accept that any of them were Poles or Catholic Poles.

but unlike our biased friend Harry it isn't cruel and is reasonable.

I've got a lot of respect for Norman but I do feel he has become a bit Polonised. Anybody who can write a book about the Warsaw Uprising but fail to mention the telegraph from Churchill to Roosevelt on August 25 about sending planes to resupply Warsaw and then land at the USAAF bases in the Ukraine to "see what happens" (to quote Churchill) and how "I do not consider it advantageous in the long term general war prospect for me to join you in the proposed message to Uncle Joe." (to quote Roosevelt's reply the next day) is kind of missing the moment when the whole Uprising was doomed to failure. Such an author would not only be missing a rather vital point in history but also taking blame which should have been put on the Americans alone and sharing it on the Allies as a whole. Which is very much the Polish way. Even the Soviets realised that Poles had too much love for the USA to blame the USA for post-war Poland and so instead trotted out the old line about how England is to blame for everything (a line first sold by the Nazis, as it happens).
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
16 May 2008 #144
So you mean that because they had Jewish names, they could not possibly have been Polish.

because we are separated nations. In moder times it changes.

In the past Jews had not only their religion but different language and ethnic group.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language

some of them couldn't speak Polish.

I was only asking about your opinion if Jew = Pole (your opinion)

IMO you like to talk about Jewish victims or heros as about Jews. When it comes to bad Jews they are Poles who operated camps after WWII.

In the past reality was much different. In big cities there was a lot good assimilated Jews good Polish patriots and links I provided show that they were officers in Polish army or later oppostionst durring communism.

good Poles: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Military_Union

as to this names they are not "native Polish names"

Provided they were happy to sit on the ghetto benches in the segregated Polish universities. Which were introduced before or during the war? And provided they didn't want to join the professional associations which regulated and validated those professions. And, of course, provided that they could get a place in universities which strictly controlled the number of Jews who would be permitted to pollute the hallowed Polish halls of learning with their presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Hurwicz

Hurwicz was born in Moscow, Russia to a Jewish family a few months before the October Revolution. The family was Polish and had lived in Congress Kingdom (the part of Poland then within the Russian Empire) but had been displaced by World War I. Soon after Leonid's birth, the family returned to Warsaw, Poland.

Encouraged by his father to study law, in 1938 Hurwicz received his LL.M. degree from Warsaw University

he is after Polish univeristy - LAWER.

Jews had harder life in USA.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews

. Just as you doubtless view anybody who has black or yellow skin as being unable to be Polish.

it is not true.

As to Askhenazi DNA most of them are (J) middle east. In some groups there is high level of R1A1 and Q.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
17 May 2008 #145
As to Askhenazi DNA most of them are (J) middle east. In some groups there is high level of R1A1 and Q.

How come???

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
17 May 2008 #146
Poland, first to fight (and first to surrender).

Enemy attacked. From two sides. One was pretending to be friends (foking Soviets), the other attacked openly.

What were the chances of Polish army to stand against two enemies, and win?

Nevertheless Polish army stood up. Nevertheless they fought. Till the end.

Tell me. Tell me, Harry. Why do you hate Poland and the Poles so bad?
You don't have to answer, I know.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
17 May 2008 #147
How come???

Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y Chromosome Evidence for Both
Near Eastern and European Ancestries


familytreedna.com/pdf/Levite%20paper.pdf

So Ashkenazi Levites priests can be more or less European still others are middle east people.

there are some inaccuracies in this work. When more and more people will make DNA tests in our part of europe it will be easier to find final answer.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
17 May 2008 #148
I still think they are mostly a religion (at least in Europe).
People converted to and back....there were german Jews which were physically totally germanic, there was nothing ME about them.

But I agree...it's a people too...(not easy)...

Intriguingly, the Sorbian
tongue, relexified with a German vocabulary, has been
proposed as the origin of Yiddish

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany

But how??? The center of german Jews was since 1500 years back in the west, the Rhineland...the Sorbs live in the far East!
Hardly possible...

Hmmm...Wiki says there was Western Yiddish and Eastern Yiddish!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
17 May 2008 #149
I still think they are mostly a religion (at least in Europe).

I was talking about 1930s and we know that it wasn't just religon in this time. Jewish socialists form Bund (mentioned before) were not religous. They considered Yiddish language as something what gave them unity.

As to Jews and Harry,

Wife of our Minister Sikorski Anne Applebaum has Jewish origin.

I was laghing when German foreign affairs minister visited Poland with his wife and they all were sleeping in Skorskis house. Funny situation from historical point of view.

But I agree...it's a people too...

lets leave it in this way.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
17 May 2008 #150
I was laghing when German foreign affairs minister visited Poland with his wife and they all were sleeping in Skorskis house. Funny situation from historical point of view

What's so funny?

PS: Abour the polish BUND

Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund in Lite, Poyln un Rusland

...doesn't sound sorbish either...compare that with Hochdeutsch:

"Allgemeiner jüdischer Arbeiter Bund in Lite (Litauen?), Polen und Russland"


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