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"Poland's Concentration Camp" ??


dolnoslask
19 Jan 2016 #481
Jon "Polish concentration camps set up by Sikorski"

Do us a favor tomorrow, do a straw poll for all of us at PF and ask your workmates, boss and drinking buddies what they think about this and let us know how you got on, It would be good to get a view from the general Polish population at large.
jon357 67 | 16,836
19 Jan 2016 #482
do a straw poll

Is that a normal method for historical enquiry? A "straw poll" of "workmates, boss and drinking buddies"? Why not include the guy on the bus?

"Maybe there's an ancient city buried under the jungle, let's ask our workmates, boss and drinking buddies to do a straw poll, what about some evidence for the Nuremburg Trial, was Goering guilty! Let's do a straw poll of drinking buddies".

Fortunately the people researching wartime history have a rather more rigorous set of standards, eyewitness accounts, survivors, written documentation, the Hansard record of questions asked in parliament, Sikorski's own words recorded at the time....

Remember the account of this and the historical facts of the camps' existence and function is not disputed by the Polish government.

But hey, maybe your "drinking buddies" know more than the historians, than Hansard and than the government. Don't insult the victims.
dolnoslask
19 Jan 2016 #483
Why not include the guy on the bus? please do
jon357 67 | 16,836
19 Jan 2016 #484
Not a very articulate reply, and since I don't do buses not a practical one.

As I say, the camps' existence, function and level of brutality are not in dispute. Nor is Sikorski's description of them as concentration camps.
dolnoslask
19 Jan 2016 #485
Jon it is not about "As I say"

It is about what history will tell and not your opinion, nor some random book you read.
jon357 67 | 16,836
19 Jan 2016 #486
It is about what history will tel

This much is true, however I'd add that it's more what historians research, what the media shout about and what people choose to believe or not.

nor some random book you read

A long way from random - it's a major work, mostly not about Poland. And just out so very few people have read it at all - though the publishers as usual have placed it with reviewers and the media are beginning to pick up on the issue. Most of the discussion about the book (in English, anyway) will not relate to Poland. In Polish and among Polish communities it will doubtless be a different story.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
19 Jan 2016 #487
I've just read the story now, and I'm gobsmacked. The common Polish narrative is that the Poles were treated somewhat with hostility in the UK, but now it turns out that they were putting political enemies in concentration camps even though Poland needed all the men they could get. Unbelievable.
Bieganski 17 | 901
19 Jan 2016 #488
I've just read the story now, and I'm gobsmacked....Unbelievable.

Yes, in retrospect Soviet propaganda can be dismissed for either being absurd or pernicious. It's good to see that you are finally coming around and realizing this for yourself. Certainly it has been your exposure to Poles and your desire to emulate us in thought, word and deed that has helped to remove the leftist scales from your eyes. Your efforts for self-improvement should be a source of personal pride. Keep at it.

But by the way, what do you think is the motive behind a tabloid like The Jewish Chronicle echoing an obscure but nevertheless obvious Soviet lie about Poland after all these decades?
jon357 67 | 16,836
19 Jan 2016 #489
I'm gobsmacked

I think a lot of people will be. This is going to be talked about a lot. We can expect a lot of huffing and puffing as well as spurious denials from people who haven't bothered to read the facts. That and "oh, but they did it too, in X, Y or Z" as if that somehow justifies it. The only thing that is important is that which is historically provable. That and compensation to the survivors.

but now it turns out that they were putting political enemies in concentration camps even though Poland needed all the men they could get. Unbelievable.

General Sikorski was many things, some positive some not. Pleasant wasn't among them.

Sad (though entirely predictable) to see Bieggers over in Canada pretending it's "Soviet propaganda" on the basis that a contemporary Russian newspaper also reported it. I wonder if he thinks the Conservative MPs who raised it in the House of Commons were "Soviet propaganda" too, or whether General Sikorski himself was spouting "Soviet propaganda" when he admitted that they were concentration camps.

The book, by the way is worth reading.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
19 Jan 2016 #490
I'm gobsmacked

You are well used to that feeling I'm sure. Given your attitude it must be happening to you all the time.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
19 Jan 2016 #491
Sad (though entirely predictable) to see Bieggers over in Canada pretending it's "Soviet propaganda" on the basis that a contemporary Russian newspaper also reported it.

Thankfully, we at least have a credible approach to history that involves reporting the facts and not brushing things aside simply because it doesn't comply with the approved canon.
Bieganski 17 | 901
19 Jan 2016 #492
it's "Soviet propaganda" on the basis that a contemporary Russian newspaper also reported it.

The only "interesting links" (your term) which you provided were some conspiracy blog and a low-circulation Jewish tabloid. And the tabloid's article was written by the same guy pushing his book on the subject. So basically it's just an advert.

And this book appears to be based on an early 20th century English language newspaper article quoting Radio Moscow which was quoting Pravda.

So which "contemporary" Russian newspaper are you referring to? Izvestia?

Yeah, here is an old, funny and very accurate saying the Russians had about Pravda and Izvestia:

"v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy" (In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth).

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda
Hilarious!

Anyway, don't bother listing your "contemporary" Russian newspaper because everyone in Poland knows that the Russian media has always been hostile towards Poland and seeing them regurgitating their own bile is fully expected no matter what era it is.

I wonder if he thinks the Conservative MPs who raised it in the House of Commons were "Soviet propaganda" too

Oh, you mean the same House of Commons (your representatives of course) which held long debates and then went ahead and voted in favor of invading Iraq based on a pack of lies. Yes, yes, and how did that decision turn out for everyone? LOL! Okay then, do feel free to keep fooling yourself that the House must have been right too about the propaganda Pravda was intentionally feeding them and the West back in the day.

General Sikorski himself was spouting "Soviet propaganda" when he admitted that they were concentration camps.

Lies and no surprise then that you haven't (or rather can't) provide any source showing direct written quotes from him stating so.

The book, by the way is worth reading.

How much of a discount did you get for promoting it on PF?

Thankfully, we at least have a credible approach to history that involves reporting the facts and not brushing things aside simply because it doesn't comply with the approved canon.

LOL!

Yeah, let's take a direct quote then from the lies propagated by Pravda back in 1945 regarding this "Hell Camp":

"The Polish Fascist concentration camp system, notorious before the Germans started Buchenwald and other camps, was preserved when the Poles fled from Poland."

Well, that doesn't sound very scholarly now does it? But according to you this utter BS is still "reporting the facts" whether it is quoted from Pravda or repeated decades later by useful idiots in the media suffering from acute and incurable Polonophobia.

So now let's take a look at undisputed facts and in particular what Pravda and others like yourself have deliberately and conveniently brushed aside because it doesn't fit your classical and neo-bolshevik narrative.

The Soviet GULAG system had its origins in the early 1900's and ran for most of the 20th century. It unjustly imprisoned tens of millions of people and savagely worked millions of innocent people among them literally to death!

One should note very well that when this canard from Pravda was propagated in 1945 the Soviets had already been in full swing repressing Polish citizens; in particular from 1939 - 1946.

The Soviets unlawfully imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Poles, murdered thousands more, and on top of this deported millions of Poles all across the USSR many of whom died along the way and countless others who would never see Poland again.

But you don't care about these revolting Soviet atrocities done on an industrial scale, these systematic and unforgivable Soviet crimes against humanity.

It's upsetting to think that you claim to work around Polish children.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2016 #493
We can expect a lot of huffing and puffing as well as spurious denials from people who haven't bothered to read the facts.

Yes, this is absolutely certain. It's pretty clear that the author will be accused of being "Polonophobic" along with endless other insults by people that will read manipulated quotes online. I imagine there'll be some token protest from some fringe loony group in the UK as well.

Something that was pointed out to me a few hours ago - Sikorski was actually breaking the law of Poland by punishing homosexuals, as Poland had decriminalised it in the 1930's. If these camps operated under Polish law as is claimed, then it makes Sikorski a war criminal.
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Jan 2016 #494
Bieggers, you seem for some reason (probably because you haven't got anything else to say) to be fixating on the clipping that mentioned Pravda. Unfortunately for your argument, every detail and more is documented in individual sources.

You even, amusingly, tried to mention the 2002 invasion of Iraq! As if that either negates or confirms something that is documented as happening between 1940 and 1946! No words are enough to express the stupidity of that comment.

So in fact, you're getting worked up about (as usual) something about which you know nothing and don't have a leg to stand on.

It may surprise you, being a teenager in Canada born in the late 90s or even after 2000 that there are some people alive today in their 90s who would just muss your hair and call you kiddy, but are very capable of giving their testimony about what happened to them when they were very young (but still a decade older than you are now). There are also other sources, Hansard being one of them and unfortunately for anyone who tries to pretend (the Polish government by the way doesn't) that Polish Concentration Camps didn't exist in Scotland, General Sikorski himself admitted it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2016 #495
So in fact, you're getting worked up about (as usual) something about which you know nothing and don't have a leg to stand on.

I've just spotted this thread : secretscotland.org.uk/forum/m-1308564097/

1500 Polish officers on Bute alone. Unbelievable.

Boletus...didn't he post on here?
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Jan 2016 #496
I've just spotted this thread

That's actually a fascinating forum for so many topics. There's mention there of some of the eyewitness accounts and in our compensation culture I suspect that there are lawyers trawling it now.

Since any survivors of the Polish Concentration Ca,ps that Sikorski dared to insult Scotland with are certainly eligible for a huge payout from the Polish government-in-exile's legal heirs.

If not the Sikorski family too, who aren't exactly on the breadline.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2016 #497
are certainly eligible for a huge payout from the Polish government-in-exile's legal heirs.

Call it a hunch, but I think the current government accepts no responsibility for the Government-in-Exile's actions as it's legally a continuation of the pre-1935 Polish State and not the disgraceful post-1935 regime. I seem to remember that Poland had to recognise things like their medals/awards as it wasn't automatic, unlike the progression from the PRL to the III RP.

I always thought the Sikorski assassination theory was just another right wing crackjob theory, but when you learn about how he behaved then, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the Poles dealt with him themselves.
Bieganski 17 | 901
20 Jan 2016 #498
every detail and more is documented in individual sources.

Yet none are provided. So typical of you.

You even, amusingly, tried to mention the 2002 invasion of Iraq!

Ah yes, lifting phrases out of context because you can't stand that I so easily knocked down your sad attempt to support your argument. You wanted me and other readers to believe that the House (your representatives) would never put its credibility at stake and this should then give credence to Pravda's own propaganda. But the House (your representatives) got it wrong in 1945 and then again in 2002. So the House (your representatives) shows consistently, generation after generation, that it has no credibility particularly when it comes to the affairs of other nations. They have shown time and again both in their debates and with their votes that they will believe anything no matter how boldfaced the lie. This must be a British thing because as you know you are always trying to peddle some nonsense on here but only your fellow carpetbaggers are willing to put what's left of their own tattered reputations on the line and support what's left of your own tattered reputation. No one else ever believes you.

So in fact, you're getting worked up about (as usual) something about which you know nothing and don't have a leg to stand on.

Wrong as usual. It's clear though that you are unsettled that your attempt to promote this book on PF is now falling apart.

Hansard being one of them

Hansard transcribing the Parliamentary debates in 1945 which cited a English language newspaper which cited Radio Moscow citing Pravda. Yes, empty heads must surely make for great echo chambers.

the Polish government by the way doesn't

General Sikorski himself admitted it.

Legitimate sources only please. We've already completely ruled out Pravda, Radio Moscow, Hansard, the House of Parliament, Jewish tabloids and Scottish conspiracy websites.
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Jan 2016 #499
Still trying to pretend that documented facts didn't happen, Bieggers? Even suggesting that the Jewish Chronicle (which by the way reviewed the book, nothing more) and the British Houses of Parliament aren't reliable sources!

Given that Sikorski himself admitted that they were Concentration Camps, given that names of the inmates are a matter of public record, given the contemporary eyewitness reports, and given the meticulously researched detail as, I think we can conclude that your lame attempt to discredit a piece of history that is true beyond any doubt is laughable.

And since the whole matter is likely to be tested soon in a court of law (yes, some survivors of the Polish Concentration Camps are still alive) we shall be hearing much much more of this whole sad chapter in history.
Lyzko 29 | 7,245
20 Jan 2016 #500
Most of the larger concentration as well as extermination camps were in point of historical fact located in what is today Poland, '38-'44 German-held territory!! Treblinka, Majdanek, Auschwitz (in present-day Oświęcim!), Sobibór along with a number of lesser camps, were situated in Nazi-occupied territory, end of debate.

That many Poles here on PF and elsewhere can't face these bare facts isn't my problem:-)
dolnoslask
20 Jan 2016 #501
Lyzko I think your last post sums it all up, why North Korean propagandists wish to connect Sikorski with mass genocide I do not know, undoubtedly their would have been Polish military prisons for criminals, traitors and inertness alike. but to frame them as concentration camps!!!.

I can only believe that the certain dark forces here are still trying to undermine the polish nation by painting us as racists and mass murderers , The youth of today will goggle Poland and only pickup untruths and complete lies , I can only assume that is their intention here.
Lyzko 29 | 7,245
20 Jan 2016 #502
Complicit in Nazi genocide the Poles undoubtedly were, though, to their credit, NOT the originators of mass murder, merely, "Helfershelfer", as the Germans put it:-)
dolnoslask
20 Jan 2016 #503
"Complicit in Nazi genocide the Poles undoubtedly were"

Some may have been, as were poles who were forced to fight on the German and Russian sides, but their were darker forces at play, many concentration camp guards were actually Ukrainians who were shipped in and sympathetic to the German cause, many of these would pretend to be Polish.

" to their credit, NOT the originators of mass murder", thank you.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
20 Jan 2016 #504
No. Since Poland (specifically its government-in-exile) was a sovereign state, any of their facilities were extra-territorial, meaning they were Polish territory, just as the embassy is today and was then.

I'm not so sure as you are that that would be the case.

At least you haven't tried to pretend that the Polish concentration camps set up by Sikorski (who admitted they were Polish concentration camps) somehow didn't exist.

I simply don't know whether they existed or not, it could be that you are confusing things or whatnot. If I don't know I'm not going to talk about it. In my understanding some Poles were being put into British concentration camps slash prisons on request of the Polish government.

Complicit in Nazi genocide the Poles undoubtedly were

Absolutely unacceptable generalization. You could as well say that the Jews were complicit in Nazi genocide. I expect an apology!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2016 #505
I'm not so sure as you are that that would be the case.

It was the case. Seemingly the UK had agreed to it with all the Allied forces, probably because it made it easier to insist that they looked after their own forces on their own bases.

Complicit in Nazi genocide the Poles undoubtedly were

Lyzko...please don't say such things in such broad terms. Some might have been, but that hardly justifies using the term "Poles" as a catch-all term. I'm no Polish nationalist, but there's no need to say things like that.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
21 Jan 2016 #506
when you learn about how he behaved

Putting aside that theory about him building concentration camps on the British soil during three years he spend there Sikorsky had a lot to answer for in the political aspects of his activities.
jon357 67 | 16,836
21 Jan 2016 #507
that theory about him building concentration camps

Apparently he admitted it. He wasn't someone who tolerated opinions that differed; this was a shame since the groups who were locked away may well have contributed well to the war effort.
Lyzko 29 | 7,245
21 Jan 2016 #508
@Ironside and Delphi,

I made statements which are based upon nothing other than pure historical fact! The facts are these, that many (obviously not ALL) Poles were complicit with the Nazis in the execution of genocidal activity, either as willing volunteers or as camp guards, as were quite a few Ukrainians. Either to save their own skin or because they agreed with Hitler's racial theories, the evidence nonethless remains that a large number of Poles did participate.

This is indeed a source of shame, but must be fessed up to!

Furthermore, the Jews have admitted being forced into being capos and Sonderkommandos. So now the Poles were perfect????!!
dolnoslask
21 Jan 2016 #509
Lyzko "Poles were complicit with the Nazis" are you saying some or all poles ?
Lyzko 29 | 7,245
21 Jan 2016 #510
As I wrote above, unless you can't read English, "....obviously NOT ALL Poles...." (oczywiście NIE WSZYSTKIE.....)


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