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"Poland's Concentration Camp" ??


Steveramsfan 2 | 306
3 Dec 2009 #331
You can tell Poles about their concentration camps in any way you want: they still won't listen and will still deny the camps were Polish concentration camps.

Like I posted in a different thread, concentration camp took on a new meaning after 1942. All these places known as concentration camps before did not mean "Death camp/Extermination camp"

Bergen Belsen was also a concentration camp and not a "death camp/Extermination camp" and this was in Germany.
Harry
3 Dec 2009 #332
All these places known as concentration camps before did not mean "Death camp/Extermination camp"

And the phrase "concentration camp" still does not mean "Death/Extermination camp".
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Dec 2009 #333
I do. But the only way of fighting ignorance is through spreading awareness.

So the Administrator of this "Polish" Forum moved this thread to News and Politics and burried it in some unrelated thread to spread awareness, I suppose.

I ask to return the thread to Polish History and I can change the tittle if it doesn't suit the Administrator.

And the phrase "concentration camp" still does not mean "Death/Extermination camp".

Apparently, the Israeli press has no problem using the term "Polish concentration camps"(sic) in reference to Nazi camps.

They have graduated to using "Polish Extermination Camps."(sic)

From today's Haaretz:

Hajda, four years his junior, was charged 12 years ago with aiding in the murder of hundreds of Jews in Treblinka, another Polish extermination camp, in 1944.

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131914.html

I posted this comment at the end of the article:

I wonder if calling Treblinka II a "Jewish Extermination Camp" would not be more appropriate?

Any thoughts on that?

It would be comment #4 if it gets printed. I doubt it, but let's see.

Perhaps the goal of this major Israeli newspaper is to stir up "anti-Semitism?", or belief that Poles were Nazis.

The Polish MSZ should sue this newspaper and stop asking for accuracy in their statements as this has no effect.
Harry
4 Dec 2009 #334
Apparently, the Israeli press has no problem using the term "Polish concentration camps"(sic) in reference to Nazi camps.

Some Israeli journalists are morons. Is that news? I would very much suspect that the percentage of Israeli journalists who are morons is pretty much identical to the percentage of Polish journalists who are morons.

Anyway, I also left a comment to the article. "The phrase "Treblinka, another Polish extermination camp". Treblinka was run by German Nazis, Poles played no part in it other than being exterminated there. Constant use of the phrase "Polish concentration camp" to describe Nazi camps is at best disgracefully sloppy journalism and at worst an attempt to blame Poland for Nazi crimes. Kindly correct this article."

I wonder if it might be worth dropping a few emails to the Polish embassy in Tel Aviv about this? Anybody up for that?

If anybody cares enough to email the paper (I just did), use:
feedback@haaretz.co.il;
editor@haaretz.co.il;
saram@haaretz.co.il (editor of the online edition).
1jola 14 | 1,879
4 Dec 2009 #335
Some Israeli journalists are morons. Is that news?

Journalists cannot write what they want without approval of editors. The use of "Polish Extermination Camps" (sic) is deliberate. Why? You tell me.

Despite the obvious protest against using such lies, Israeli, American, French, and Spanish newspapers continue to lie in our faces. Certainly, it doesn't mean that all the nationalities above are cupable of spreading lies; however, not speaking up is cowardly.

Anyway, I also left a comment to the article.

I see your comment along with mine in the trash bin of Haaretz. You and I made wrong comments.
cheehaw 2 | 263
5 Dec 2009 #336
Why? You tell me.

There are people among that group of 'a' jew.. who use this tactic to get themselves handsome reparation$ 1jola.

This is just another way to bankroll the mansion. Poland being the victim in this case.. (but don't repeat that since it's not politically correct?)

OH HOGWASH. You can say whatever you want. Don't buy into their stupid repression.

Change newspapers. there are plenty out here that don't foment the pro-a-jew-only viewpoint.
Boguslaw - | 7
6 Feb 2010 #337
What you are still refusing to recognise Carol is that Poles ran concentration camps in Poland under the orders of the government of Poland both during and after WWII.

Can you provide some more substantial arguments about those camps. Where Poles were running such camps during WWII. Which polish government ordered to build them?

Also, give me the name of some acclaimed scholar who claims that Poles were running concentration camps after the War.
Harry
8 Feb 2010 #338
^Just google Salomon Morel and Czeslaw Geborski.
Bzibzioh
8 Feb 2010 #339
Despite the obvious protest against using such lies, Israeli, American, French, and Spanish newspapers continue to lie in our faces. Certainly, it doesn't mean that all the nationalities above are cupable of spreading lies; however, not speaking up is cowardly.

Add Canadian to that list. "Polish concentration camps" was a common phrase for a long time. But protest helps: recently there is more "Nazi's camps located in Poland" in a serious reports or articles but I can still see "Polish concentration camps" in a movie, book or travel reviews. And funnily always in articles reprinted from a British press.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
8 Feb 2010 #340
The use of "Polish Extermination Camps" (sic) is deliberate. Why? You tell me

Indeed, also use of phrases like 'polish enthusiastic role in holokaust', 'auschwitz operated by poles', 'poles even worse than nazis' and all these happened to be loaded in one only paragraph:

Speaking at the Auschwitz death camp in Poland, the greatest extermination facility in history, which was built in Polish territory (and not coincidently) and was operated by Poles, Netanyahu managed to skip the enthusiastic role played by the Poles in the Holocaust. In terms of their dedication to persecuting Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, and their active role in the extermination industry, the Poles were second only to the Germans, and sometimes even more devoted than them to the extermination work.

1jola 14 | 1,879
8 Feb 2010 #341
Just when I thought I had the peace of mind about the Polish-Jewish relations, and I felt things were taking on better and more relaxed view of each other, I watched a recent Isreali documentary that really brought me down. We've had discussions on this forum about Jewish youths visiting Poland and I was optimistict that they would understand the wartime realities, and given the proper background lecture I think they would understand and would be much wiser for it. Perhaps I had thought wrong. I have always thought that it was only the American kids that were brainwashed to believe that the Poles were as bad as the Nazis, but this seems to be untrue; the Istraeli kids are continued to be indoctrinataed to believe that we Poles are monsters out to kill them if we only get a chance. Thanks to the brave and armed Istraeli guards, we can't fullfill our fantasy. If you think I am full of it, watch this Israeli documentary and get back to me; I will be happy to discuss the relevant pieces of this film.

wideeyecinema.com/?p=7208
vetala - | 382
8 Feb 2010 #342
1jola
Ugh, terrifying. I didn't realize how bad it is. But there were about 30 kids on that trip and only about three interviews with them were shown so it could be that other kids didn't have a bad opinion on Poland and only those with really shocking views were shown - that's how documentaries are usually made. Still, the people who constantly tell them to watch out for an army of antisemites are idiots and deserve to be sacked.
matteroftaste
8 Feb 2010 #343
Poland's Concentration Camp

Well, concentration camps in Poland sounds better.
1jola 14 | 1,879
9 Feb 2010 #344
Still, the people who constantly tell them to watch out for an army of antisemites are idiots and deserve to be sacked.

I really see no reason for induced hostility. Manipulating young kids is very, very wrong. In this example the kids have no chance to see for themselves that they don't need escorts, armed guards, and hateful propaganda. Sad, to say the least. But, you're right, the director did pick some of the dumber girls to portray in their induced psychosis. What is unexusable is the behavior of the adults.
Boguslaw - | 7
17 Feb 2010 #345
^Just google Salomon Morel and Czeslaw Geborski.

Lovely, but i was asking for names of some acclaim scholars who write about polish concentration camps and who claim that Poles were running those camps during and after the War.

As long as you will not provide such names, i will assume that you are just another closet nazi who is doing everything to dillute facts and create impression that victims of nazism - Poles, were worst than nazis.

After the war, during which 3 millions of polish Jews and 2 millions of ethnic Poles had been killed by nazis and their collaborators, those who were responsibility for supporting nazis policies were punish. For you punishing nazis obviously is a crime, for non-nazi people its simply justice

And here is about polish antisemitism:

Weinbaum noted that while "there is a tendency to try and 'contextualize' - as he defines it - the cases in which Poles participated in the annihilation of the Jews in Poland. "Polish society as a whole cannot be seen as a perpetrator-nation, as can be the Lithuanians," he said. While some Poles were complicit in the murder and despoliation of Jews, he noted, "others rescued them."

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145183.html

So much for accusing Poles for Holocaust. You should learn to distinguish between polish nazi collaborators, who betrayed polish Jews but also ethnic Poles, and polish nation that was subjected to nazi terror.

Your behavior is quite odd and reminds me about thief who is pointing a finger on innocent people accusing them for stealing.
Harry
17 Feb 2010 #346
Lovely, but i was asking for names of some acclaim scholars who write about polish concentration camps and who claim that Poles were running those camps during and after the War.

So you can't even be bothered to read a little before your automatic responses kick in. OK, here are two acclaimed scholars (Polish ones too) who state that Poles ran concentration camps during and after WWII: Adam Dziurok District Bureau of National Education, Institute of National Remembrance ["IPN"] Katowice; Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński University, Warsaw) and Andrzej Majcher prosecutor at the Regional Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation, IPN Katowice). They in particular name Aleksy Krut and Salomon Morel. Read about it here:

ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=71&search=10599

As long as you will not provide such names, i will assume that you are just another closet nazi who is doing everything to dillute facts and create impression that victims of nazism - Poles, were worst than nazis.

Nice touch, call your opponent a Nazi. Don't bother at all with the facts, just go straight in with the personal abuse, really shows how powerful your case is. But then when you are arguing with historical fact, all you have left to use are insults. Well done!

For you punishing nazis obviously is a crime, for non-nazi people its simply justice

Killing innocent women and children is obviously a crime. Killing innocent men is also a crime. Which is why camp commanders Morel and Gęborski were both charged with war crimes.

While some Poles were complicit in the murder and despoliation of Jews, he noted, "others rescued them."

So much for accusing Poles for Holocaust.

Perhaps you'd like to read your own sources? That source clearly says that some Poles took part in the the murder and despoliation of Jews!

You should learn to distinguish between polish nazi collaborators, who betrayed polish Jews but also ethnic Poles, and polish nation that was subjected to nazi terror.

You should learn to distinguish between what happened in Poland under Nazi occupation (i.e. Nazis ran concentration camps and extermination camps) and after Nazi occupation (i.e. Poles ran concentration camps).

Your behaviour is quite odd and reminds me about thief who is pointing a finger on innocent people accusing them for stealing.

Your behaviour is that of somebody who wants to lie about history and ignore all the bad things which his people did in the past, which means that his people will be likely to repeat those same mistakes in the future, or is it just a coincidence that Poland was home to illegal detention centres and took part in the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation?
yehudi 1 | 433
17 Feb 2010 #347
I see your comment along with mine in the trash bin of Haaretz. You and I made wrong comments.

I just looked at the Haaretz article and in the the Talkback section there are plenty of comments (nearly all of them) protesting the ignorant nonsense that the writer said about Poles operating Auschwitz. I stopped counting after 20 comments. So don't imply that Haaretz is suppressing your opinion.

My only consolation from this idiot's article is that he denounces the Israel army for killing civilians. If a person is so wrong about Poland, you can be sure he's wrong about Israel too.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 Feb 2010 #348
perpetrator-nation

This bullsh*t can only come from a representative of the World Jewish Congress, really. I hope they don't forget to call each and every member of the Israeli "perpetrator-nation" a baby killer next time Israel attacks the Gaza strip.
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Feb 2010 #349
soon we will read how Poles started WW2 and how Germans protected Jews from Poles just because Poles did not pay retributions to Jews for so called their properties they lost during war, the properties that Germans took from them but they want Poland to pay so they started their propaganda, extortion war against Poles.

Jews forgot about properties they took from Poles during Polish partitions as Poles ware not allowed to own properties even if it use to belong to them from generation to generation.

now Jews created largest ghetto and systematically kill Palestinians, they took their land and water, build illegal settlements and if you say that they committing genocide against Palestinians they will always remind you about holocaust as if it is a excuse.
Harry
17 Feb 2010 #350
Poles started WW2 and how Germans protected Jews from Poles

There is of course absolutely no evidence at all that Germany started WWII. Just as there is no evidence at all that Germans destroyed Warsaw.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 Feb 2010 #351
no evidence at all that Germany started WWII

Who declared war on whom first? ;)
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Feb 2010 #352
and there in no evidence that Poles run concentration camps during WW2 but idiots are saying it and you Harry.
Harry
17 Feb 2010 #353
Just me and the IPN.

Who declared war on whom first? ;)

The first declaration of war came from the British!
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
17 Feb 2010 #354
this Israeli documentary

The 121 + comments are not sympathetic to this 'documentary'. I guess that by some Jewish standards it means that these people are also antiSemites or more properly antiJewish as there are many more Semites that are not Jewish than are Jewish.

It was a matter of time. They used Jews as labor for 3 years before started exterminating them; it would have taken more time, but the Poles were to be next. Many documents confirm this.

Since Poles were not Jewish it isn't as important.

the kids have no chance to see for themselves that they don't need escorts, armed guards, and hateful propaganda.

Truth doesn't matter; an agenda does.

I will never forget what an aging Jewish survivor told me some 30 years ago. He said, "it is important that the world see us as the ultimate victims. Others who died may have had a hand in their own suffering but we Jews are pure in this." (I admit to paraphrasing but that was his message).

It is this sort of "chosen people' thinking that brings me back to take another look at the plight of the so-called Palestinians. My sympathy has always been with Israel as I abhor the violence that so many Arabs perpetuate against Jews and against themselves - yet, there does seem to be something not quite right about so many spokesmen who claim to represent Jews. Blaming innocent Poles (or name your country) while dodging thorny issues like the role of Capos and other enforcers as well as attempting to skirt the role of Jews who pointed out Poles (for death) to incoming Russians makes my blood boil.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 Feb 2010 #355
The first declaration of war came from the British!

So they started the war... :)
Boguslaw - | 7
17 Feb 2010 #356
They in particular name Aleksy Krut and Salomon Morel.

This is not an answer to my question. I was asking for ACCLAIM scholars and you provide me names of some anticommunist second-class historicians who not even use the term "concentration camp".

In fact, by giving me that link, you have just refuted your statement that Poles were running concentration camps after the war.

Some quootes from your link:

"Although the Świętochłowice camp bore the official title of a labour camp, it also fulfilled the function of a penal camp"

"Franz Brachmann recalls that the camp administration was indifferent to the deaths of inmates, and only when almost every single prisoner in barrack 7 (accommodating chiefly members of Nazi organisations) was ill were they provided with medicinal charcoal"

As you can see, those historicians resist to use the term "Polish concentration camp", just like it is clear that those victims of that labour camp were obviously not innocent, since members of nazi organizations hardly ever were such.

So, i will repeat myself. Provide some names of acclaim scholars who claim that Poles were running "CONCENTRATION CAMPS" during and after the war.

As long as you will not give me those names it will be clear that you are a closet nazi.

Nice touch, call your opponent a Nazi. Don't bother at all with the facts, just go straight in with the personal abuse, really shows how powerful your case is. But then when you are arguing with historical fact, all you have left to use are insults. Well done!

It is only cheap sophistry of a con-men. You are doing everything to trivalise nazism and depict Poles as someone who was even more criminal than nazis. By doing so, you want to erase remembrance about nazi past, as well as remembrance about nazi terror against Poles, and bit by bit justifying that terror suggesting that those Poles should be condemn equally with nazis. As every con-men you will play a martyr everythime when someone will gonna caught you lying. You dont care about human rights and staff, you just cant come to terms with a fact that nazism was the most genocidal and pathologic creed ever, so to undermine that fact, you have to accuse victims of nazism for even bigger crimes and by doing so you can say that nazis were not doing anything special, since Poles were the same.

You are disgusting.

Killing innocent women and children is obviously a crime. Killing innocent men is also a crime. Which is why camp commanders Morel and Gęborski were both charged with war crimes.

I see that whole your knowledge comes from wikipedia. Do something crazy for a change and read some good books.

In Poland we say, that if one wants to hit a dog, one will always find a stick. And the same is with people like you. You are looking only for those information that will back your claim, selecting facts and ignoring those that dont compose with your paranoias.

Neither Morel nor Geborski were proven guilty let alone that behaviour of some members of IPN had all the hallmarks of antisemitism when its comes to the former one.

Irony, you are accusing Poles for virulent antisemitism, yet when it really occurs you ignore it. Symptomatic, that would imply, that you dont care about fate of Jews under nazi occupation, but you treat them as an objects, probably to trivalise crimes of real nazis and their collaborators.

Moreover, you are using Goebbels sophistry, to create this duplicitious moral panic. Victims of antinazi resistance were alway presented by nazi propaganda as innocent children and women. You have to prove first that those women in question were not members of nazi organizations, that they were not responsibility for exploting slave laborers. Next, you have to prove that those allegedly children were not members of Hilterjugend.

And don't forget that first of all, Salomon Morel is a Holocaust survivor. What is more interesting, he had been saved by a Pole -Jozef Tkaczyk who later had been designated as one of the Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem for saving Morel's life.

Irony, you try to accuse Poles for Holocaust and killing of Jews and then you are accuse one of those Jews that Poles - contrary to your version of history - saved during Holocaust for being responsibility for killing innocent women, children an men.

You cant forgive him that he survived Holocaust, can you?

Perhaps you'd like to read your own sources? That source clearly says that some Poles took part in the the murder and despoliation of Jews!

So, you cant come to terms with a statement that "(...)Polish society as a whole cannot be seen as a perpetrator-nation(...)" and that is why you select only that part which suits you, then you take this out of context and you are showing the world how Poles were really bad. This is exactly how nazi propaganda worked. I clearly stated that there was a substantial difference between polish nation which was subjected to nazi terror and polish nazi collaborators who betrayed polish society (Jews and Poles alike).

You should learn to distinguish between what happened in Poland under Nazi occupation (i.e. Nazis ran concentration camps and extermination camps) and after Nazi occupation (i.e. Poles ran concentration camps).

So now, you are playing a fool. Typical behaviour of a closet nazi whose lies are being exposed. You were the one who wrote that: "What you are still refusing to recognise Carol is that Poles ran concentration camps in Poland under the orders of the government of Poland both during and after WWII."

I expect that you will recognise your lie and apologise Poles for your libeling of polish society. Moreover, you still haven't proven that there were any concentration camps after the war in Poland.

Your behaviour is that of somebody who wants to lie about history and ignore all the bad things which his people did in the past, which means that his people will be likely to repeat those same mistakes in the future, or is it just a coincidence that Poland was home to illegal detention centres and took part in the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation?

Oh my, you are really a drama queen. History teach us that we should be beware of moralists and those who are so smoothly setting themselves up as authorities on human rights, western civilisation and claim the right to become defenders of pompatus values only to point finger and accuse others.

But speaking about those bad things that people did in the past, about which they dont want to learn, so they are bound to repeat them. Have you ever heard about Halabja?

The massacre of the Kurds was something big. It was the first and only time - cannot think of any other incidents - in which gas was used since World War II. This gassing, which was made possible in measure by western corporations which sold Sadaam the raw materials he needed, is one of the great atrocities of the post-WWII period.

It is very symptomatic, that everyone forgot about that crime, about Sadaam accomplices (Western Germany private capitalist companies, Ronald Reagan) , and about Kurds, yet everone is using pompatus language to depict present intervention in Iraq as almost equal to Holocaust. Its quite symptomatic that you stress existence of illegal detention centres in Poland in which small group of people - whose connections with some genuine terrorist groups are quite possible - were being held, yet you completely ignore planning gassing of 10 000 Kurds. Well, I see an analogy between this behaviour and that other one, when you lament about so called "polish concentration camps". You ignore victims of genuine and genocidal terror and simultaneusly to this you create moral panic depicting people who were responsibility for that terror in question as genuine victims. Talking about mistakes that are being repeated.

Bystanders and those who believe that are moraly superior using constantly pompatus language and preach others, are two side of the same coin. The former pretend that they didnt know, while they did know very well what was happening. They like to pose being moralists and point finger on someone else to distract attention from they own sins. This is how many westerners like to behave. Both during WWII and during gassing of Kurds. The latter, like to feel themselves superior towards others and are looking for excuses to dispise and exploite - directly or indirectly - those allegedly morally and culturally inferior. Murderers from Waffen-SS and real nazi collaborators or nazi raptile newspapers always used pompatus language, drenched in hysteria, arrogance, constantly moralising others, only to shift attention from they own crimes and justify them. After the war many nazis and their descendants become philosemits and started accusing everyone for Holocaust. Everyone except nazis and their real collaborators of course.

Your behaviour indicate, that you havent learned anything from the nazi past. Quite on the contrary, you are doing everything to dillute facts.

I reccomend to read prof. Istvan Deak Essays on Hitler's Europe or prof. David Cesarani.
Books are better source of information than wikipedia.

The truth is far more complex. Relations between Christians and Jews in Poland deteriorated in the 1920s and 1930s. But they were not exactly good anywhere in Europe, while Poland was subject to severe social, economic and political tensions. The anti-Jewish nationalists, the Endek party, had a disproportionate impact on public feeling, especially in the cities where there was intense economic competition between communities. This must be contrasted to the existence of liberal elements and a large socialist movement that eschewed all forms of racism. The large and influential Jewish workers' party, the Bund, stood should to shoulder with Polish socialists and trade unionists.

It is true that only a few hundred Jews emerged from the ruins of Warsaw when the city was liberated, but this was partly because they had surfaced, prematurely as it turned out, during the uprising of August 1944. The Polish rebellion was fought over the cellars and hiding places where Jews had been concealed. Had it not been for this catastrophe, the survival rate for Jews in hiding in Warsaw would have been similar to the survival rate of Jews in hiding in the Netherlands."

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/12/stephen-fry-auschwitz-poland
Harry
17 Feb 2010 #357
^ You didn't actually think I (or anybody else) would actually wade through that much sh*t in a single post did you?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
17 Feb 2010 #358
Boguslaw

Interesting post, hit the nail on the head a few times, albeit only metaphorically.
Boguslaw - | 7
17 Feb 2010 #359
^ You didn't actually think I (or anybody else) would actually wade through that much sh*t in a single post did you?

hahaha
So, reading make you sick, right? Troglodytes like you dont read books, because they are obviously too long. Whole your knowledge is superficial and selective, yet you feel smug and superior.

Troglodytes like you have tendency to believe that there is nothing more to learn, so everytime when they hear something new, believe that this is stupid and wrong.

Either way, you proved that i was right. You are closet nazi, who is now dogding the issue.

I won.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 Feb 2010 #360
And don't forget that first of all, Salomon Morel is a Holocaust survivor

That's an excuse for what this animal did to others? You can't be serious.

Neither Morel ... were proven guilty

Only because Israel denied several Polish requests for extradition.


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