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Communism, was it the best form of government Poland ever had?


milky 13 | 1,656
22 Dec 2013 #31
And now - almost 25 years later - I am still not sure if I am glad of this change.

nice,, tell me more.
native1231
24 Dec 2013 #32
Since Poland joined EU, development of poor polish regions skyrocketed. It's definitively better now than during communism. People worked much longer, didn't have much privileges, and were more uneducated. 'Slavery' under the regime both of governement and intelligence was dominant; now people have equal rights in many areas; life in Poland became better.

Thank you Europe, for allowing Poland to join European Union.
Wroclaw Boy
24 Dec 2013 #33
Thank you Europe, for allowing Poland to join European Union.

Don't thank Europe just yet, theres no such thing as a free lunch.
AdamKadmon 2 | 495
24 Dec 2013 #34
Since Poland joined EU, development of poor polish regions skyrocketed.

Did you experience it all yourself? I mean the communism, regime, slavery and the like?
Crow 160 | 9,195
24 Dec 2013 #35
Communism, was it the best form of government Poland ever had?

no
jon357 75 | 22,576
24 Dec 2013 #36
Who said it was?
Bieganski 17 | 888
24 Dec 2013 #37
Communism was a disaster for Poland. That's why Poles rose up and got rid of it.

Patriotic Poles who love Poland and put Poland first have always fought to eradicate this evil from Polish soil.

Polish resistance can be found not only during the successful Solidarity movement of the 1980's....

Solidarność

but all the way back to the 1920's when the bolshevik cancer first began to spread in Europe....

Bij bolszewika!
Ozi Dan 26 | 566
6 Jan 2014 #38
jon said a murderous communist regime which killed more than 50 thousand people in poland 'was the best form of goverment poland has ever had'.

I'd take whatever Jon says with a pinch of salt mate - after all, this is the bloke who tried to argue that the szlachta weren't nobility.

I think your figure of 50K is a bit light on as well mate.

This is like saying the nazi goverment was the best form of goverment germany had.

Or like the person who says I want to go back to jail because at least in jail I got three squares and a roof.
Harry
6 Jan 2014 #39
Take as much salt as you want: no amount will change the fact that Jon didn't say what antheads claims he did and that this thread is this based on a lie.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
6 Jan 2014 #40
Damn, people... Jon357 and WB - it's funny reading your comments, considering that none of you lived even a day under that system...

Don't be silly. Unless you can think of any government, at any time in Polish history which achieved more.

And what did it achieve?
It fu*ked up Polish economy and people's mentality and Poland got big debts. We'll probably have to deal for quite some years with this. You couldn't debate things in those times - everything Poles did was great and wonderful (as long as it didn't have anything to do with nobility), there was only one line and hence - Poles have problems with dealing with their history.

PRL seems so great in your comments: "access to housing, free education, hospitals", but when I was a little kid I had only two sets of baby clothes - one blue and one red. Both bought from Czechs. It was ridiculous.

Jon357, we still have free education and hospitals in Poland. And you foreigners complain about the quality of both. As for "free housing" - I grew up in one room apartment - living in one room with my bother, mum and my dad.

I wonder if you'd stand one month under that system. If you complain about Poland now, you probably wouldn't stand a week.

That economy was simply unsustainable.

You'll be waiting a long time. Plenty of people in PL supported the party, and plenty still do.

What do you mean by "plenty"?

Nevertheless, it would be naive in the extreme to assume that the people who vote. SLD nowadays were all party members before

People with left-wing views are the traditional electorate of SLD.

That homeless man will become ever more frequent as capitalism engulfs people with its perpetual profit at all costs driven agenda. Give it another 50 years of capitalism and the people will practically be begging for communism back.

I doubt that. Communism failed. Or maybe it never existed, as some claim. Whatever...
Even China turned to a kind of "state capitalism."
Hopefully people will come up with something better in the future than communism.
Or maybe one day people will be ready for such kind of utopia. But it doesn't seem to me we live in such times.
4 eigner 2 | 831
6 Jan 2014 #41
Damn, people... Jon357 and WB - it's funny reading your comments, considering that none of you lived even a day under that system.

yeah, it's kinda crazy to tell Poles that communism (actually socialism), was the best form of government, Poland ever had. Thousands of Poles died for a commie free Poland and now, they're telling you that they died for nothing and that whatever you guys ever believed and lived for, was a nonsense.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #42
People with left-wing views are the traditional electorate of SLD.

Not unusual - everywhere in Europe you will find people who vote for the left.

As for "free housing"

Who said the housing was "free". Or for that matter that any other 40 year period managed to build as much.
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #43
It fu*ked up Polish economy

If you mean by making a majority of Polish factories to produce parts to tanks and planes I would agree.

people's mentality

I got a feeling that you have something else in mind than I.

everything Poles did was great and wonderful (as long as it didn't have anything to do with nobility), there was only one line and hence - Poles have problems with dealing with their history.

What the hell are you talking about? It was them who stared that mentality of apologizing for everything. There were few thing that put emphasis on and the rest were skewed as to be belittled including the fact that our ancient lands stolen by Soviets have been presented as not really Polish and an economical burden.

What problems do you have in mind?

- I grew up in one room apartment - living in one room with my bother, mum and my dad.

Really? I grew up in a house and never meet anyone without an apartment.

If you complain about Poland now, you probably wouldn't stand a week.

That is a good point, jon wouldn't be able to survive a week unless he would agree to work for UB and grass on his friends.

That economy was simply unsustainable.

That economy was aimed at producing weaponry and not much else beside.

People with left-wing views are the traditional electorate of SLD.

People who were privileged and who supported that system during PRL are the traditional electorate of SLD. Few idiots with left-wing views are also voting that party.

it's kinda crazy to tell Poles that communism (actually socialism), was the best form of government,

That is a British thingee after all Kim P didn't become a traitor for money.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #44
That is a good point, jon wouldn't be able to survive a week unless he would agree to work for UB and grass on his friends.

Interesting that you start to get offensive when you've nothing really to say. Though it does perhaps provide a tantalising glimpse into your experiences of those time.

For the record, I've 'survived' rather longer than 'a week' in places round the world where the inhabitants would have regarded the PRL as a land of freedom and abundance.
Harry
6 Jan 2014 #45
" Thousands of Poles died for a commie free Poland"
And thousands of Poles died in order for there to be a communist Poland; look closely and you can still see the monuments to them.
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #46
For the record, I've 'survived' rather longer than 'a week' in places round the world where the inhabitants would have regarded the PRL as a land of freedom and abundance.

Would that be that you survived as an outsider?

And thousands of Poles died in order for there to be a communist Poland

A what? Stop spreading Soviet propaganda here.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #47
Would that be that you survived as an outsider?

You'll never know.

And thousands of Poles died in order for there to be a communist Poland; look closely and you can still see the monuments to them.

A certain sector of society likes to underestimate the support for the left as well as the even larger support (that has existed for centuries) for progress, liberalism and change.
Polish Patriot
6 Jan 2014 #48
You can read the truth about the subject in this book .

The bestseller in Poland :

Raised in a family of activists and officers of the PZPR , the Communist Party or SB, secret service . Set later in life, thanks to connections " In their youth, activists of Communist youth organizations , then businessmen , owners and managers of new media. That's why so strongly against decommunisation and mocking patriotism , Polish traditions and all of Polish culture. Dangerous , because they keep posts in the opinion-forming press , especially television and radio stations.

empik

Today there is a big catholic celebration throughout the country , with feasts in 200 cities , but TVN 24 held limited information about the scale and popularity among Poles , marginalising this event .
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #49
You'll never know.

Boo ho!

A certain sector of society likes to underestimate the support for the left as well as the even larger support (that has existed for centuries) for progress, liberalism and change.

You are mixing different orders. Soviet occupation of Poland had nothing to do support for liberalism and progress. It was a brutal extermination of Polish elite coupled with the most terrible and disgusting terror.

If you don't know that you know nothing.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #50
It was a brutal extermination of Polish elite coupled with the most terrible and disgusting terror.

And what about all the good things during that time?
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #51
Do not balance all the bad things.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #52
Who's talking about balancing things? Life isn't as simplistic as that. Judging the achievements of socialism by the evils of the Stalin years is like judging Christianity by the Inquisition, the witch burnings or the current Catholic Child Abuse Terror
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #53
Who's talking about balancing things? Life isn't as simplistic as that. Judging the achievements of socialism by the evils of the Stalin years is like judging Christianity by the Inquisition,

Let put it otherwise. If not for the Soviet occupation of Poland this country would be on par with France when it comes to economy or so near that it wouldn't make a difference.

Problem with foreigners is that they do not feel Poland and most of them do not feel Polish history. For example you PF foreign experts on Polish history have a go at Sanacja. When in fact Sanacja was a government that can be compared to Socialist governments in France. Sure there were some significant differences due to differences in circumferences both internal and external between those two countries and their respective histories but bottom line is that it was in its core a French like version of a Socialist state.

You simply do not known what you (you self appointed experts) are talking about, going more by your prejudice than by the research.
Poland have made tremendous progress in all things before the war. In comparison the present state is only squandering social, natural, moral and any other capital you can think off.

the current Catholic Child Abuse Terror

You are living in your fantasy land regardless.

the Inquisition,

There were nothing wrong with the Inquisition and Protestant countries burned more witches per capita than Catholic countries.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #54
Let put it otherwise. If not for the Soviet occupation of Poland this country would be on par with France when it comes to economy or so near that it wouldn't make a difference.

There's not one shred of evidence of that and all indications (given the comparative states of the countries when both were independent) suggests otherwise.

Poland have made tremendous progress in all things before the war.

In corruption, instability and economic mismanagement.

You are living in your fantasy land regardless.

Very real. One of the US bishops has just been released from prison for his role in covering it up. Theer is however another thread about that.

There were nothing wrong with the Inquisition

Unless they were torturing you to death.

Protestant countries burned more witches per capita than Catholic countries.

Who said they didn't? It was a crime both parts of western xtianity were guilty of.
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #55
In corruption, instability and economic mismanagement.

Fact have it otherwise.

There's not one shred of evidence of that and all indications (given the comparative states of the countries when both were independent) suggests otherwise.

Sure there is a common sense to go by it. Sure there is no evidence as for most of what if scenarios.

Unless they were torturing you to death.

The Inquisition did not do tortures and have been progressive at the time.
Sure some things should be debated in a thread - Myths crazy progressive leftie people believe in.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #56
Facts are facts, even though you might find them uncomfortable. The economic state of the second republic, the huge unemployment, the hyperinflation, the instability (a coup d'état and the assassination of a premier) are facts.

And yes, the inquisition did torture people.
4 eigner 2 | 831
6 Jan 2014 #57
And thousands of Poles died in order for there to be a communist Poland; look closely and you can still see the monuments to them.

Harry (and whoever feels like Harry), if you believe that communism is a system for you then Poland is not the right place to be. In my years in Poland, I haven't met many Poles who liked it back then. Those monuments you're talking about, are most likely for Polish soldiers who fought along the Soviet Army during the WW2, who mostly didn't care who they fought for, as long as it helped Poland. OK, there might be a few monuments of some major commie criminals too but I don't believe, you'll find many people in nowadays Poland, who care about them, or maybe someone, simply forgot to tear 'em down.
Ironside 50 | 12,441
6 Jan 2014 #58
Facts are facts, even though you might find them uncomfortable. The economic state of the second republic, the huge unemployment, the hyperinflation, the instability (a coup d'état and the assassination of a premier) are facts.

You simply do not known what you are talking about.

And yes, the inquisition did torture people.

Myths crazy progressive leftie people believe in.
jon357 75 | 22,576
6 Jan 2014 #59
More so than you think. There are people now who praise the achievements of those days.

Myths crazy progressive leftie people believe in.

And all credible historians. It is a matter of record with primary sources. Your comments on that, pretending the inquisition never tortured anyone, rather destroy everything else you've spouted in this thread.
cms 9 | 1,254
6 Jan 2014 #60
Of course you should judge communism by its crimes. There is not a single communist regime that has not descended into murder and repression. even the ones that eased up in the 80s like Hungary went through purges, hangings and personality cults in the 50s.

As for people begging to have it back, then communist parties have only once won a national election - in Czechoslovakia in 1948. every electorate is wise to the fact that it is an unworkable system that can only be sustained by terrorising the workers it pretends to represent.

there are plenty of clear cut comparisons - east v west germany, north v south korea, austria v hungary. And no capitalist country has ever had to build a wall to keep people in.

Nobody starved in 1980s Poland but they sure didnt send back the food parcels we used to send them. if 1979 poland had been left for another 10 years with no foreign currency and no products to export then people would have been eating grass.

i know plenty of Poles who say some elements of life were better but i have honestly never met one who would like to go back to the old system lock stock and barrel.


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