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Communism, was it the best form of government Poland ever had?


antheads 13 | 327
21 Dec 2013  #1
jon said a murderous communist regime which killed more than 50 thousand people in poland 'was the best form of goverment poland has ever had'. This is like saying the nazi goverment was the best form of goverment germany had.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #2
Don't be silly. Unless you can think of any government, at any time in Polish history which achieved more. Judging communism by the Stalin terror is like judging religion by the Inquisition.

This is like saying the nazi goverment was the best form of goverment germany had.

Not unusual here on this forum.

he needs to apologise

You'll be waiting a long time. Plenty of people in PL supported the party, and plenty still do.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
21 Dec 2013  #3
You'll be waiting a long time. Plenty of people in PL supported the party, and plenty still do.

At its highest the ruling communist party in Poland counted only 3% of the population, even though it was clearly advantageous carrier-and-otherwise to be a member. For comparison neighboring Czechoslovakia had roughly 90% of its population officially belonging to the communist party, not mention Russia and other Soviet-occupied countries. That's how strong and wide was the resentment to the Soviet-installed communist government in Poland. It came with the Russian tanks and it was treated as such.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #4
Who's talking about being a member? Normal people just got on with life, got access to housing, free education, hospitals. Can you think of any other government who achieved that?

BTW, there were 3 million members, not 3%.
szczecinianin 4 | 345
21 Dec 2013  #5
What are you saying, Jon? That things were better off under communism?
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #6
Nothing of the sort. Read it carefully, unlike our young antipodean friend Antheads. The exact words.

Having said that, for some of the poorest in society it probably was.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
21 Dec 2013  #7
BTW, there were 3 million members, not 3%.

sorry my bad, indeed it was about 8% which is still significantly lower than in any other soviet-bloc country where the communist party membership was around 90%

Who's talking about being a member? Normal people just got on with life, got access to housing, free education, hospitals.

Oh yeah a true paradise on earth, Scandinavian countries should take note... yes I guess everyone was so fed up with this much affluence and social justice, they were resisting communists out of sheer boredom.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #8
sorry my bad, indeed it was about 8% which is still significantly lower than in any other soviet-bloc country where the communist party membership was around 90%

Most people didn't like it.

Nevertheless, it would be naive in the extreme to assume that the people who vote. SLD nowadays were all party members before, nor is it sensible to denigrate the efforts of those who worked within the system for the common good. Worth mentioning also that in PL, people are not great joiners of things and the Church excommunicating party members certainly didn't swell their ranks either.
Wroclaw Boy
21 Dec 2013  #9
What are you saying, Jon? That things were better off under communism?

I dont think Jon is in a suitable position to answer that question.

I know quite a few Polish people personally who preferred communism, not many young ones, mainly older people that have significant experience of both. I wonder how many of the millions of Polish people who were forced to leave their homeland for money feel about it. Communism is always portrayed by Western propaganda media as black and white images, with people waiting in line all night for bread and stuff. Its amazing the power of the media on this. Communism would have had a much better chance of being a superior and fairer social system had it not been implemented by dictators.

These days people who give communism a fair review are usually considered as failures or lay about's and all the other classic stereotypical crap that hes been indoctrinated into the accuser.
szczecinianin 4 | 345
21 Dec 2013  #10
jon said a murderous communist regime which killed more than 50 thousand people in poland 'was the best form of goverment poland has ever had'. This is like saying the nazi goverment was the best form of goverment germany had.

Can you please refer to the post where he said this. I would like to see the context.
OP antheads 13 | 327
21 Dec 2013  #11
sure here is jon's quote

Nor can you routinely dismiss everything that existed or was created during the PRL as 'commie'. A system, by the way, which did more for Poland than any previous government they'd had. Totalitarianism was simply a fact of life, as it is in so many places now.

As you can see he is a closet communist who excuses oppresion and totalitarianism. He ignores the first modern democracy in europe in 15th to 17th century as well as the 2nd republic.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #12
Right to ignore them, since neither of the ancient examples you give achieved nearly as much, (and the second one self-destructed) whether you like it or don't.

Weird that you think I said it was the best form of government though. Mind you, we expect weird from certain quarters.

Will you take back what you said in your first post, or do we assume you simply didn't understand what you say?
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #13
By what criteria then does one establish the "best" from the "worst"? This is not unlike another thread about whether Polish is the "HARDEST" language in the world. It's equally infantile as it sets up an already fallacious premise that there exists some platonic form of rule which is "better" than another!

Even the comparison between Poland's Communist regime and Hitler's Nazi dictatorship is like comparing apples and oranges; same tree, different fruit. And in the end, is not any fruit-bearing tree judged by it's fruit rather than by its roots?
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #14
Indeed. You can say that guy in the Ukraine was the worl'd worst killer because he killed the most people; he'd probably say he was the best, since he did the most.

The thread title is, by the way, our young friend Antheads' words rather than mine.
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #15
The most what, jon? Killing?! If sheer numbers of those killed in the name of Father State be the criterion by which dictatorship is judged, messrs. Amin, Stalin, Mao, and particularly Pol Pot have Hitler beat by a country furlong:-) Hitler was simply less random in his choice of victim.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #16
And that indeed is the point.

Not that the post that our substance-dealing Aussie friend is so interested in actually used the word 'best'.
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #17
In that case, they should post what they mean (as opposed to what they THINK they mean), and mean what they post!

One more of umpteen instances of sloppy thinking and faulty logic; just another day here on PFLOL
Harry
21 Dec 2013  #18
" jon said a murderous communist regime which killed more than 50 thousand people in poland 'was the best form of goverment poland has ever had'."

I do wish you'd stop lying about what other people say.
milky 13 | 1,657
21 Dec 2013  #19
are there any good novels( English) written about this period in Poland? Most Poles I talk to are on continuum of either being regressive Catholics with a strong hatred for communism and everything non-Polish or cosmopolitans whose historical reference goes as far the last episode of X Factor. Looking for a good book about what it was like in reality in everyday life.
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #20
I can recommend a frightening (if authentic!) film from and about the period "Przesłuchanie" (The Interrogation), made in around the late 50's. However, it's in Polish:-)
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #21
are there any good novels( English) written about this period in Poland?

You'll find more poetry, film and plays than literature, though I like Stachura's writings and Gombrowicz. Not especially political or meant to illustrate the times, but it does give a feeling of that period.

I do wish you'd stop lying about what other people say.

Some people lie by instinct - he's evidently one of them. Of course in real life and away from the internet sooner or later such people get smacked in the gob, but still they rarely learn.
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #22
Sooooo true, jonny boy! We call them politiciansLOL
OP antheads 13 | 327
21 Dec 2013  #23
or later such people get smacked in the gob,

advocating violence against other members of this forum jon? . Its quite obvious you need to be banned and your 'special' friend harry too. You are both professional trolls.
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #24
Calm down, guys! This is supposed to be 'civilized' forum, neither a gabfest nor a boxing ring. Let's stop being so primitive and talk things out.
jon357 63 | 14,122
21 Dec 2013  #25
advocating violence against other members of this forum

Looks like you don't know the difference between predicting and advocating. Why not ask your teachers if you can take a dictionary home?.

Now on the other hand:

Like in Germany the former aparchiks of the former regime need to brought to trial, assasinated or more likely die out for poland to move ahead. Oh and some of the corrupt privatisations need to be renationalised.

polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/random-chat-thread-deleted-periodically-67848/109/#msg1417662
Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
21 Dec 2013  #26
Jon, just leave him be! Remember, you can never call a fool, a fool, you can only get him angryLOL
enkidu 7 | 623
21 Dec 2013  #27
I was born in the middle of '70 in Poland. I still remember when I saw first homeless person.

It was around 1992 - after the socialist regime collapsed. It was quite a shock for me. I asked myself "How this is possible?". How is it possible that someone has no roof over his head? And no job, no income? Why his potential is wasted?

In PRL (People's Republic of Poland) this was quite unthinkable. Everyone worked. In fact "avoiding the duty of work" was a criminal offence. Eight hours of work, free education and healtcare, paid holiday twice a year and a place in the block of flats - that was a standard.

It was guaranteed. Modest life. Sure - not eveyone did own a car or colour TV set then. Most people lived in a rather poor standards. No luxury.

But no one I MEAN NO ONE lacks food, health care, shelter, education for his children or himself. Never. There was no starving, homeless people in the PRL.

And then I saw him - a man digging in a rubbish bin in search for food.
I realised that our old life just ended. And something new has just started.

And now - almost 25 years later - I am still not sure if I am glad of this change.
Wroclaw Boy
21 Dec 2013  #28
And then I saw him - a man digging in a rubbish bin in search for food.
I realised that our old life just ended. And something new has just started.

Very well said Enkidu.

That homeless man will become ever more frequent as capitalism engulfs people with its perpetual profit at all costs driven agenda. Give it another 50 years of capitalism and the people will practically be begging for communism back.
szczecinianin 4 | 345
21 Dec 2013  #29
I also don't like communism, and I would agree that that was a 'strange' thing to have written. But Jon is entitled to his opinion.
Wroclaw Boy
21 Dec 2013  #30
I also don't like communism

Why?


  • reality


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