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De-communisation in Poland?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Jun 2013  #1
I wonder what would have happened if a thorough-going de-communisation had been carried out in Poland after 1989 similar to the post-war de-Nazification in West Germany. The PZPR would have had to be officially declared a criminal organisaiton. Members from the head of every POP (basic party cell -- these existed in all workplaces, schools, institutions, army units, etc.) up to the very top would have to pay one-off damages for supportimg a criminal organisation that had ruined the Polish economy. It might start at let's say 10% of their previous year's earnings going up to 50% in the upper echelons (Politburo, KC). Such people. in fact all party members who had not left the party when Solidarity emerged (1980-81) would be additionally banned from holding pulbic office and working the the state adminsitartion for, say, 10 or 15 years.

Probably more of them would have gone into buisness using their commie-era contacts, and there'd be more detective and security agencies for sure. But some would have probably decided to leave Poland. I wonder what their typical destination would have been? Any idea?
Zibi - | 336
29 Jun 2013  #2
Pol3 why won't you move back to PL and try to turn back time? Why won't you move back anyway?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Jun 2013  #3
why won't you move back to PL

Nie ponimaju? (I don't get you!)
Zibi - | 336
29 Jun 2013  #4
Re-read your own original post then.
pawian 159 | 9,497
29 Jun 2013  #5
similar to the post-war de-Nazification in West Germany.

Come on, what are you talking about? De nazification was one giant scam. Come on, you perfectly know that many German criminals who participated in genocide in Poland were never brought to court for it but they were allowed to make careers.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Jun 2013  #6
Nobody said de-NMazification was ideal, and a lot of Nazis fell throuhg the cracks and evaded prosecution. But wouldn't you say it was nevertherless more intensive than Poland's lame weryfikacja and lustracja experiments? In fact I've heard it said that of all the ex-Soviet bloc countries Poland performed the worst in that resepct.
pawian 159 | 9,497
29 Jun 2013  #7
Come on. Worst? Don`t you know that in the Czech Republic ex-reds have their own communist party which has been regulalry elected to the Parliament?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Jun 2013  #8
Czech Republic ex-reds have their own communist party

Ever hear of the SLD? Incidentally, Poland never had a post-war communist party -- it was the Polish United Workers Party. Except that excrement by any other name smells.........
pawian 159 | 9,497
29 Jun 2013  #9
Ever hear of the SLD?

Officially, it is not a communist party but social democratic. While in Czechia ex communists are openly communist and they are elected.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #10
I wonder what would have happened if a thorough-going de-communisation had been carried out in Poland after 1989

Many people would have lost their jobs and livelihoods and social unrest certainly would have followed. Revenge would have been taken, which would have made a mockery of Poland's Christian history.

It might start at let's say 10% of their previous year's earnings going up to 50% in the upper echelons (Politburo, KC).

Which would have caused social unrest and mass disobedience. Many people were signed in by virtue of where hey worked - you can't punish the ordinary Party members like that.

all party members who had not left the party when Solidarity emerged (1980-81) would be additionally banned from holding pulbic office

Not every single person opposed to the PZPR supported Solidarity.

I certainly think that if it had been done properly, many people would have fallen on very hard times. I suspect that many people who at least passively collaborated would have found themselves in a lot of trouble.
4 eigner 2 | 831
30 Jun 2013  #11
Revenge would have been taken, which would have made a mockery of Poland's Christian history.

Like you freaking care, LOL

Let's be honest, neither you nor your buddies, would like Poland if it was a commie free country.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #12
What on earth are you talking about?

You do realise that the experience of 1980 and 1990 showed that the vast majority of members of the PZPR were opportunists who dropped the Party like a hot potato and that committed Communists were very few and far between?

Then again, I know what a Communist is, unlike you and most other Americans. Here's a clue : Christian Democrats are not Communists or Socialists.
4 eigner 2 | 831
30 Jun 2013  #13
What on earth are you talking about?

I'm talking about love, LOL

and that committed Communists were very few and far between?

committed or not, they used their political influence to become what they are today and considering that at least officially, Poland is a commie free country, they don't deserve to live like they do. Who knows how many good Poles they sold out to achieve their goals.

Then again, I know what a Communist is

Oh, I'm absolutely convinced you do, LOL (first hand information)

unlike you

wrong.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
30 Jun 2013  #14
Just yesterday in a social chat someone mentioend that many former Solidarity freedom-fighters now ride trams whislt ex-nomeneklatura people prefer BMWs. I realise that was an over-simplification. In actuality, some fo the ex-'S' activists ride buses or walk and the ex-commie types often fancy the Lexus, Mecedes, Alfa-Romeo, Infiniti, Volvo or Audi makes...

you can't punish the ordinary Party members

You'll notice only the heads of party cells would have to pay damages, not rank-and-file PZPR members. Rank-and-filers would only be barred from public office and administrative posts for a specific length of time. How else could one have swept away the nomenklatura leftovers so the SLD could not have stood for election in 1993. How else to preclude a situation like the one we have today with ex-commies running the show in many state treasury companies and other areas of the economy. No, you won't fuind any links on this. It's a tight-lipped oldboy web.

But you haven't answered my main question: if true decommunisation had been carried out, where would those who wanted to leave Poland most likely go: Cuba, Russian Federation, Belarus or other ex-soviet republic, Vietnam? (Poland was not in the EU in the early 1990s.)

eisieawayso
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #15
committed or not, they used their political influence to become what they are today and considering that at least officially

And where do you draw the line? For instance - is it acceptable for foreign journalists who wrote pro-regime propaganda to enjoy the good life today?

Oh, I'm absolutely convinced you do, LOL (first hand information)

Oh dear. You do realise that there are perhaps 100-200 Communists in Poland today, and that most people have never met one?

some fo the ex-'S' activists ride buses or walk and the ex-commie types often fancy the Lexus, Mecedes, Alfa-Romeo, Infiniti, Volvo or Audi makes...

An interesting observation, common to the jealous classes. There are plenty of ex-Solidarity types who now drive such vehicles too.

No, you won't fuind any links on this.

No, I expect not. Paranoia tends to be unverifiable.

if true decommunisation had been carried out, where would those who wanted to leave Poland most likely go

They wouldn't have left, because they probably would have stayed to overturn such wide ranging punishments.

Most countries pragmatically realised that punishing the ordinary members of the Party was futile. I think only in Eastern Germany we saw something approaching this - and that was because Western Germany had many workers able to step in and replace them.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
30 Jun 2013  #16
wide ranging punishments.

That's called historical justice. What in yoru view would be the just reward for those who etxracted fingernails
with pliers, bludgeoned patriots to death, doused them with freezing warter in front of open windows in the bitter cold,
packed a bullet to the back of their head and dumped them into unmarked common pits, or the 'nieznani sprawcy' who beat up and killed poltical opponents in dark back alleys? What about those who like fugitive Michnik never pulled a trigger but ordered others to do so? What are the Delphianite just desserts for these 'men of honour'?
jon357 63 | 14,122
30 Jun 2013  #17
There were some very good people involved in the party. People who wanted the best for society but had to work with what was available.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #18
That's called historical justice.

The problem is deciding on where to draw the line. Do you punish every single PZPR and associated association member? Do you punish only the top ones? How do you punish them? Who does the punishing? Would it be appropriate to punish those who profited from their family's treasonous activities?

What in your view would be the just reward for those who extracted fingernails

The best way to deal with it is to hold a proper Truth and Reconciliation process. Find out the truth, find out what really happened and make sure that it never, ever happens again. You don't need to send people to prison or subject them to a lengthy trial process - but we do need to find out the truth. That would be the Christian way - and it would also make sure that anyone involved in such activities would find it very very hard to do any business in future.

What about those who like fugitive Michnik never pulled a trigger but ordered others to do so?

Likewise. Find out the truth and make it publicly available. Just like with Daddy Kaczynski - the truth should be established and his treasonous activities published. But this truth should apply equally to everyone, not just those who aren't politically connected.

What are the Delphianite just desserts for these 'men of honour'?

I think the truth being published and available easily is more than enough punishment. For a start, I certainly wouldn't give employment to anyone who was supporting the regime's propaganda abroad.
Lenka 2 | 1,397
30 Jun 2013  #19
Hm, I never was the revange taking kind of person and I think the way Poland dealt with things was the best option.
Anegdote:
When Solidarity sprang to life my mother was aproached by one of the activists. Ofc she asked why she should join, what were they about,what are their plans and so on and she heard that she should join because she will get 1000 more for having a baby (she was pregnant at the moment). She answered that she won't sell herself (lack of the proper word- she used the word szmacić) for 1000. The woman that aproached her was quite suprised.

I told that story only to show that you can find opportunists everywhere.
BTW- my mother wasn't in PZPR but she never liked Solidarność enough to join because she didn't like the ppl that did.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #20
She answered that she won't sell herself (lack of the proper word- she used the word szmacić) for 1000.

She sounds like a very honourable person :)

It's worth pointing out that Solidarity were hilariously socialist - maybe even more so than the PZPR!

Hm, I never was the revange taking kind of person and I think the way Poland dealt with things was the best option.

The problem was that - all along - it was never about 'revenge', but rather the whole TKM philosophy. If you take the time to look at what Solidarity demanded, the worker faction was far far more interested in 'less work more pay' than any political solutions.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
30 Jun 2013  #21
You don't need to send people to prison

You'll notice that the plan I proposed did not mention prison. I wasn't referring to poltical murderers and such who would be handled by prosecution and judicial organs. The lines were clearly drawn:

1) damages/fines/compenation (call it what you will) in varying porportions for all those from secretary of the basic party cell (Podstawowa Organizacja Partyjna) all the way up.

2) Ban on public office, political activity and civil-service posts for all PZPR members who did not dump their memebrship cards during 1980-81.
Point 2 would effectively preclude the emergence of a SLD. With a 20-year ban on political activity, all those who joined the SLD would have gone into other fields, found paid jobs, set up buiseness, etc. By 2010, when the ban ran out, there wouldn't be much of the old lefties left as a political force. A new social-democrat party might emerge but without significant links to the old PZPR
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #22
2) Ban on public office, political activity and civil-service posts for all PZPR members who did not dump their memebrship cards during 1980-81.

What about those who actively helped the regime in various ways, but never held PZPR membership?
Nile 1 | 155
30 Jun 2013  #23
delphiandomine wrote "The problem is deciding on where to draw the line."
No, the problem lies in the lack of political volition.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #24
Which reflects the general population. Most people I know couldn't care less about what happened in the past - it's a foreign country, they want to move on with their lives and stop living in the dark old days.
Nile 1 | 155
30 Jun 2013  #25
delphiandomine wrote "Which reflects the general population"
I'm not dealing in guesses. There is no political will in Poland to investigate crimes and trespasses of the totalitarian state.Period.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #26
Which reflects the will of the people. Were the people interested in such a thing, they would vote accordingly.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
30 Jun 2013  #27
delphiandomine wrote "Which reflects the general population"

Nile, please use the quote function. Thank you.
Nile 1 | 155
30 Jun 2013  #28
Which reflects the will of the people.

Your conclusion.

Were the people interested in such a thing, they would vote accordingly.

Your guess.

Nile, please use the quote function. Thank you.

Thank you.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
30 Jun 2013  #29
Your conclusion.

No. The conclusion that is remarkably easy to come by when you observe voting patterns over the last 22 years.

Your guess.

It's not a guess, it's a fact.
Nile 1 | 155
30 Jun 2013  #30
No.

Let's agree to disagree.


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