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Chance of Lwów once again became coming part of Poland


Legal Eagle
21 Dec 2015 #301
Zygmunt Gorgolewski was very Polish at the time. So was the government in Lwów. Perhaps the connection escapes the feeble minded...
Crow 146 | 9,235
21 Dec 2015 #302
Not sure how to break it to you, but Lwów was very much Austrian at the time.

Austrians were foreign oppressor to Poles in entire Poland, so the same way to Poles in Lwow.
Legal Eagle
21 Dec 2015 #303
Actually, the Hapsburgs are generally well remembered in Poland. There are still portraits and bust of Emperor Franz Joseph in Polish cities in some restaurants. The Hapsburgs were Catholic, and it was considered the best part of Poland during the partitions. The Poles were largely left alone to govern Galicia. The Ukrainians don't remember Galicia as warmly. It is no coincidence that Pilsudski recreated Poland from the Galician Army.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
21 Dec 2015 #304
Zygmunt Gorgolewski was very Polish at the time. So was the government in Lwów.

I think we can safely add "history of Austria" to "topics to which Legal Eagle knows nothing about".

Lemberg was an Austrian city regardless of how you try and spin it. Remember, many of us living in Poland have been there, and the Austrian influence is astonishing. Worth pointing out that the Poles of Lemberg were often considered to be traitors for the way that they advocated working with the Austrians.
Crow 146 | 9,235
21 Dec 2015 #305
Actually, the Hapsburgs are generally well remembered in Poland.

Hapsburgs were great masters of assimilation. Great oppressors of Slavs for Germanic cause. While one hand gave, other took double. Plus, members of that dynasty were known as passionate hunters and killers of animals. Actually, passionate isn`t correct word. Its rather abominable sick level of killing of animals. Ferdinand Hapsburg was absolute maniac and madman of all times. He personally killed 274,889 animals and described that in his own diary. If bullet of Serbian Gavrilo didn`t stop him, that number of killed animals would be even higher.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
21 Dec 2015 #306
Actually, the Hapsburgs are generally well remembered in Poland.

According to who? While the Austrians were by far the least oppressive of the partitioning powers, they still took part in many oppressive activities, such as destroying the Wolne Miasto Kraków.

There are still portraits and bust of Emperor Franz Joseph in Polish cities in some restaurants.

Meaningless, because there are plenty of places in Poland where you can find Lenin's picture among others. Communist themed pubs and restaurants are commonplace.

The Ukrainians don't remember Galicia as warmly.

Of course not, because they were oppressed. Both Poles and Austrians had vested interests in denying Ukrainian self-identity.
Bieganski 17 | 901
21 Dec 2015 #307
According to who?

Poles that who!

Maria Krystyna Habsburg, whose father was born Archduke Karl Albrecht of Austria, was laid to rest in the town of Zywiec, southern Poland

"Born in Zywiec in 1923, Maria Krystyna Habsburg belonged to a branch of the dynasty that had come to identify with Poland in the late 19th century, in spite of the Habsburgs' role in carving up the country between Austria, Prussia and Russia the previous century. When the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed in 1918 following the First World War, Maria Krystyna Habsburg's family took up Polish citizenship, and her father served in the Polish Army."

Source: thenews.pl/1/6/Artykul/115060,Princess-of-Altenburg-laid-to-rest-in-southern-Poland

And this very interesting video from 2012 shows the impressively large turnout put on for the archduchess's funeral full of pomp and cultural trappings; complete with a Polish military honour guard and Polish citizens paying their respects (even some wearing traditional folk dress):



Certainly much nicer than Jaruzelski's send off.
Legal Eagle
21 Dec 2015 #308
Both Poles and Austrians had vested interests in denying Ukrainian self-identity.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

More comedy from the clowns!

It is very well documented that Count Stadion started the modern Ukrainian national awakening as part of a policy of divide and conquer. When the Germans occupied Belarus in WWI they followed a similar policy of starting Belorussian schools when previously schools had been in Polish. A keen mind might see a pattern.

Poles thats who!

Just enjoy the comedy from the clowns. Historical facts mean nothing when one can just live in his own subjective reality buttressed by accepting all of the communist era historiography of the illegitimate pre-war Polish state.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
21 Dec 2015 #309
It is very well documented that Count Stadion started the modern Ukrainian national awakening as part of a policy of divide and conquer.

You mean like how the victors of WWI supported the Polish national awakening to hurt Germany and Austria? ;)
Ironside 50 | 10,989
21 Dec 2015 #310
Hmm, that would be a nonsense and even if for the sake of the debate we would assume for a movement it was true you are compering apples and oranges here. We both know that all you do is troll, lie and produce burps on the internet in order to be a center of attention.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
21 Dec 2015 #311
Hmm, that would be a nonsense and even if for the sake of the debate we would assume for a movement it was true you are compering apples and oranges here.

What is there to compare? The Allies (well, except Russia) supported Poland because it weakened Germany and helped to tear up Austria - just like they supported Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Still, having visited Lwów several times, the nicest thing there is that people are genuinely nice towards Polish speakers. People will help on the streets, people will help with Cyrillic in shops - can't say a bad word about them.
Harry
21 Dec 2015 #312
Still, having visited Lwów several times

Just looking now, I see LOT has flights there in May or June for 404zl return. I'll have to check hotel options.
Ironside 50 | 10,989
21 Dec 2015 #313
The Allies (well, except Russia) supported Poland because it weakened Germany

The only country that supported Poland was France (and somewhat America) after Russia fell to Bolsheviks, but supporting Poland and supporting Polish awakening is not the same thing.

Also both some Poles and nationalistic Ukrainian were subject of the Austrian Kaiser, who would support all minorities in their real in order to set them against each other and to maintain ensemble of balance where Hapsburgs could rule. Alas in this world Kaiser supported Ukrainian awakening in his country by supporting those people who fancied themselves a separated nation.
Legal Eagle
21 Dec 2015 #314
Just looking now, I see LOT has flights there in May or June for 404zl return. I'll have to check hotel options.

Is Harry working as a travel agent now, and how is this relevant to the discussion of Lwów rejoining Poland?
Legal Eagle
22 Dec 2015 #315
That's pretty disgusting racism, and it could only come from someone that has never been to Poland or L'viv.

I only saw a Ukrainian once.

No serious person would say that Poles and Ukrainians came from separate races. More comedy from the clowns!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

A better explanation would need to address the Polonized Ruthenian nobility and gentry which had rejected the Ukrainian ethnicity, and how the Ukrainian language was left spoken only by the peasantry in the countryside. The result that "Ukrainian" became a peasant culture and ethnicity, thus the love for the peasant shirts in modern Lwów. (Not that "Ukrainians built that city.)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Dec 2015 #316
Just looking now, I see LOT has flights there in May or June for 404zl return.

It's well worth a visit. You can see there how the idea of L'viv returning to Poland is a fantasy that only exists in the minds of people that have never been there.
Legal Eagle
22 Dec 2015 #317
Be sure to see the line of Ukrainians at the Polish consulate trying to get Polish visas or passports. (You would think it was a line for toilet paper back in Soviet times.) Then consider how popular the idea might be in the city itself.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Dec 2015 #318
Be sure to see the line of Ukrainians at the Polish consulate trying to get Polish visas or passports.

Of course. Poland imposed visa requirements on them years ago, and Poland is the country that they need to apply to for Schengen visas as most of them will pass through Poland.

Then consider how popular the idea might be in the city itself.

I can tell you've never been anywhere near L'viv.

I can also tell you that Ukrainians would give everything they've got to stop L'viv becoming part of Poland.
Pabrade
16 Feb 2016 #319
Merged: Poland to the Dnepr river

After 18.Oct.1939 eastern-Poland has been raped by the russian oppressors. At Potsdam we got "compensation" consisting of worthless german lands. What is Olsztyn compared to wonderful Lwow? And we even didn't get Krolewíec, which was the most worthy city within the **** the germans had left. I would be ready to give up the regained territories, if poland would just get back it's rightful eastern borders. (Which reach far more than the interwar borders would suggest)
jon357 67 | 16,848
16 Feb 2016 #320
And we even didn't get Krolewíec,

People prefer to have Wroclaw than somewhere that's now Ukrainian territory. And Kaliningrad was never Polish (and a ruin at the end of the war).
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
16 Feb 2016 #321
I would be ready to give up the regained territories, if poland would just get back it's rightful eastern borders.

Are you going to personally pay for it?

I've been to small towns in Western Ukraine. It's not pretty, and many towns are barely better than they were under Polish rule. One place I visited - Chyrów in Polish - recently had their main square renovated. It wasn't touched since before WW2. If you want to pay to bring the place up to Polish standards, go ahead, but I and other Polish taxpayers certainly don't want to.
Ironside 50 | 10,989
16 Feb 2016 #322
people prefer both W and old Polish land at the same time but there is no point to write about it on some forum for foreigners.
dolnoslask
16 Feb 2016 #323
You are right Ironside foreigners here don't care about my "old Polish land" after all it was the foreigners that took it from me in the first place, they know best.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
16 Feb 2016 #324
Most Poles also don't care about it. They know fine well that integrating a large, ruined piece of land with a large hostile population would be an economic disaster.
Ironside 50 | 10,989
16 Feb 2016 #325
Most Poles also don't care about it

Most Poles don't care about anything except their own bunghole. I'm talking about those who care for more than that, for those who count!
dolnoslask
16 Feb 2016 #326
I must admit delph I was thinking more of kicking the murdering *** off my land, but I guess you are being very modern and diplomatic when you suggest integration.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
17 Feb 2016 #327
Good luck with that one. Western Ukraine is as nationalist as they come, and any attempt to take what they consider to be the heartland of Ukrainian culture would almost certainly result in full on war.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
17 Feb 2016 #328
At Potsdam we got "compensation" consisting of worthless german lands.

What a laughable statement. Build some new towns if you're that bothered. There's enough forest to go round. And the little town of Breslau was no small prize, oh nationalist boyo:)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
17 Feb 2016 #329
Indeed, the loss of further coal areas really dealt a hammerblow to Germany post-WW2, especially as it was combined with Germany only keeping control of the Ruhr if she agreed to combine her coal/steel resources with France.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
18 Feb 2016 #330
Considering that 100 years ago the people in Western Ukraine didn't consider that they lived in Ukraine, which they considered to be on the other side of the Dnieper, it wouldn't take much for them to relearn their history. People standing in the long lines at the Polish consulate certainly do. Pre-WWII Western Ukraine, including the Soviet side, was much more Polish before Stalin started sending "Poles" to the gulag. (When I am in Ukraine people tell me that my szlachta surname is actually Ukrainian.) Much of the Ukrainian nationalism is pushed by the ruling oligarchs. Patriotism and religion are the last resorts of scoundrels. As Ukraine collapses economically and possibly politically, look for Western Ukraine to look for integration with Poland. Ultimately, people there will choose the superior Polish economic model over the fascist/Soviet Ukrainian nationalism which masks the political corruption.

n Ukraine is as nationalist as they come, and any attempt to take what they consider to be the heartland of Ukrainian culture would almost certainly result in full on war.



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