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Poland is a Catholic country


Peter-KRK
28 Jul 2013 #151
Catholic or not, we will have a huge Cat event in Cracow - World Youth Day in Cracow in 2016!
It will be the biggest meeting in Poland since last JP2 journey (or may be even ever).
Of course incomparably (hundreds times) bigger then (in)famous Euro 2012 and without any especially built by government either highway or stadium or metro or bikers tunnel or even bloody aquapark.

Will it be a disaster? Not at all. I wrote a year ago that Cracow is prepared for such events and there will not be any problems with accomodation, catering, safety, transportation, hygiene, etc. I believe.

What's more, Cracow will have prepared a new airport, congress hall, show and sport hall and fair centre by 2016.
Good!
Polishcoal
29 Jul 2013 #152
I don't particularly like most aspects of polish culture but its adherence to catholism is admirable.
Polson 5 | 1,770
29 Jul 2013 #153
Cracow is prepared for such events and there will not be any problems with accomodation, catering, safety, transportation, hygiene, etc.

Of course, all these things that were built for the:

(in)famous Euro 2012

But I agree, it should be a big, big thing.
Bieganski 17 | 896
29 Jul 2013 #154
Catholic or not, we will have a huge Cat event in Cracow - World Youth Day in Cracow in 2016!

WYD 2013 in Rio drew millions. So if anything such sizable gatherings are great for local businesses and government coffers.

From the WYD 2013 photo above you can make out a Polish flag to the left of center. You'll see it once you move your eyes away from the SEVEN large Union Jacks on the right which are proudly flapping in the breeze for this event. I wonder if Britain's increasing Catholicism is a result of its Polonization over the years or was it Tony Blair who made it fashionable to be RC once again?
jon357 71 | 21,081
29 Jul 2013 #155
Britain's increasing Catholicism

Declining, not increasing.

Polonization over the years

It isn't polonised.

was it Tony Blair who made it fashionable to be RC

He doesn't talk about religion and in any case is unpopular.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Jul 2013 #156
He doesn't talk about religion and in any case is unpopular.

I never really followed Blair's political activities, but as a church-going family man with a pleasant, upbeat personality, he exuded a very positive overall ambience and was, what Poles would describe as 'sympatyczny'. Of course, not by everybody's standards. Some might think a lesbian Negress who rode a Harley would make a 'cool' PM. To each their own!
jon357 71 | 21,081
29 Jul 2013 #157
Some might think a lesbian Negress who rode a Harley would make a 'cool' PM

Is there any reason why such a person would not make an excellent PM?

I never really followed Blair's political activities, but as a church-going family man with a pleasant, upbeat personality, he exuded a very positive overall ambience and was, what Poles would describe as 'sympatyczny'. Of course, not by everybody's standards

I voted for him, however his family is disfunctional and his private life complicated. Interestingly, his policies platform contained much that you criticise on here.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jul 2013 #158
There's a much simpler explanation. Catholic schools are heavily results-orientated which makes them the best schools in the country. They tend to use their position as a faith school to enact draconian policies, therefore ensuring that the schools achieve at all costs. As a consequence, you find parents 'converting' to Catholicism or simply 'finding' their faith just so their kids can get into such schools.

As for Tony Blair, he rarely mentions Catholicism. It's all to do with schooling, and the RCC is very good at blackmailing parents.
jon357 71 | 21,081
29 Jul 2013 #159
you find parents 'converting' to Catholicism or simply 'finding' their faith just so their kids can get into such schools.

More lapsed catholics retaining some connection just to get access to the schools. Fortunately 'faith' schools are now obliged by law to take a certain number of kids from outside that sect.
Bieganski 17 | 896
29 Jul 2013 #160
There are over half a million Poles now residing Britain and this is on top of the scores who settled in the UK following WWII. With so many more British now aware of Polish history and culture either indirectly through the media or directly from having Polish neighbors, colleagues or partners it is very reasonable that more and more would switch their allegiance from Protestantism to Catholicism or shake off their agnosticism.

Tony Blair may not wear his religion on his sleeve but the British press certainly made a big deal about his conversion back in 2007. It still gets a mention from time to time all these years later. For many lapsed or closet Catholics in Britain his high-level political and public profile (and significantly increasing personal wealth) would certainly make him an inspiration for others. Heck, even New Labour disciples of Tony Blair may have become Catholics in a modern act of disestablishmentarianism as well as to stay "cool like Tony" since Brown lead the party to self-destruction. I can see separatists in Scotland also becoming Catholics just for the sake of hammering together something of a Scottish identity in which to hang their Tam o' Shanters off of. Religion has usually served a central role for ethnic identification.

And with all the fuss that has been made over homosexuals and women entering and rising in the ranks of the CoE then increasing exposure to Catholics and celebrity conversions would certainly spur those "traditionalists" in the CoE to find safe harbor in the RCC. There is little liturgical difference between the CoE and RCC anyway.

All in all I'd say Tony Blair's conversion along with the tandem rise in the Polish population in Britain made the soil fertile for Catholicism to sprout anew.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jul 2013 #161
There are over half a million Poles now residing Britain and this is on top of the scores who settled in the UK following WWII.

Spoken as only a man who doesn't know the UK would say. If I recall correctly, only 8% of Poles in the UK go to church regularly, and it is highly unlikely that many would convert for anything other than school related reasons.

Tony Blair may not wear his religion on his sleeve but the British press certainly made a big deal about his conversion back in 2007.

Not really. It gets mentioned because he attempted to cover it up for years - it was more of a "oh, finally" moment than anything else. He himself made a big deal about it at the time - which is why the press made a big deal out of it. I haven't met one Catholic that was inspired by him - most of them seem to regard him as a bit of a fraud who was happy to use the Church but not join because it was politically inconvenient to do so.

Religion has usually served as a central role for ethnic identification.

This is a wonderful fantasy of yours, but it's only just that, a fantasy. New Labour is dead, and Labour supporters wouldn't change religion just to support Blair. Blair himself wasn't willing to change, so why would anyone else? As for Brown leading the party to self-destruction - may I remind you that it was Blair's leadership that lost the election in Scotland in 2007, not Brown?

As for Scotland, that's a remarkably stupid and naive statement to make. No-one is going to build a Scottish identity around Catholicism.

There is little liturgical difference between the CoE and RCC anyway.

There's a lot of significant differences, particularly in relation to the Marian cult.

All in all I'd say Tony Blair's conversion along with the tandem rise in the Polish population in Britain made the soil fertile for Catholicism to sprout anew.

Dream on.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
29 Jul 2013 #162
very reasonable that more and more would switch their allegiance from Protestantism to Catholicism or shake off their agnosticism.

lol hardly likely!
jon357 71 | 21,081
29 Jul 2013 #163
Heck, even New Labour disciples of Tony Blair may have become Catholics in a modern act of disestablishmentarianism as well as to stay "cool like Tony" since Brown lead the party to self-destruction.

Did they? Some sources for this would be interesting.
whyikit 6 | 102
29 Jul 2013 #164
Bieganski, you know very little about the UK and even less about Scotland. Honestly you are just making yourself look stupid.
Peter-KRK
29 Jul 2013 #165
Of course, all these things that were built for the: Peter-KRK: (in)famous Euro 2012

OK. Just a joke. In fact not a single motorway was biult especially for Euro 2012 (just preparing takes years) though politicans were telling dozens of ridiculous stories about it. But stadiums, local roads and airports were prepared and co-founded by government everywhere for Euro with exception of Cracow - one of the most distinguish football centre.

Enough football, back to Catholics.
Could we expect sth. of government now? I doubt. I expect neither a new road nor a single tram stop needed (and planned) at that place will be co-founded. BTW the deterioration of the event and especially the city it would take place had begun. Not a single journalist mentions Cracow talking about the visit - or at last by the end of the message. Official interpretation is: "Pope coms to Poland" while the truth is the opposite - Pope coms to Cracow for special, wherever it could lie - in Poland, Greenland or Burkina Faso. It looks very funny for people who were familiar with idea of this visit.

Interesting disscusion about economic effects for Cracow and Poland (unfortunately in Polish language).
(3xW).wyborcza.biz/biznes/10,102288,14351875,_Polska_gospodarka_i _wizyta_Papieza_w_2016__EKG___.html
Polson 5 | 1,770
29 Jul 2013 #166
In fact not a single motorway was biult especially for Euro 2012 (just preparing takes years) though politicans were telling dozens of ridiculous stories about it.

Maybe not especially for it, but their construction was probably sped up for it.

with exception of Cracow - one of the most distinguish football centre.

Well, since Cracow was (surprisingly) not one of the Polish host cities, they could not count on so many investments.

Could we expect sth. of government now?

Not sure, depends on the needs. But the weather will be lovely, people will just go camping ;)
Economic effects on Poland? With the WYD? The event will only take place in Cracow, right? I doubt the whole country will benefit from it.
Bieganski 17 | 896
30 Jul 2013 #167
Spoken as only a man who doesn't know the UK would say.

More than you could possibly fathom boyo.

If I recall correctly, only 8% of Poles in the UK go to church regularly, and it is highly unlikely that many would convert for anything other than school related reasons.

Anyone who knows anything about Britain and Polish migration wouldn't need to make such qualified statements about it. Anyway, people find their gods in all sorts of places. For some it is at the bottom of a bottle of booze they just emptied. For others it's at a school's admissions office. And for many more its the seeds of discontent I've mentioned already which have been sown at every level of British society. Tony Blair's conversion and the presence of Poles practicing their Catholicism openly would indeed have an influence on those UK persons who desired to become or return to Catholicism but lacked the role models in society to help them commit to going through with it.

Before his conversion his wife's Catholicism was criticized by Protestant and secular people in Britain as the reason she had so many children. It is quite odd that on one hand Britain will boast of its openness, tolerance and diversity and yet on the other it is still unthinkable that in the 21st century an elected Prime Minister could be a Catholic and so has to wait to leave office before practicing a private matter of faith other than Protestantism. Odder still the very head of the CoE and members of her family have no problems following protocol and dawning black lace to show deference when they are granted an audience with a pope.

QEII obliging JPII by wearing black lace as is expected of her

Camilla happily following protocol to show respect towards a pope.

Considering your postings one would have thought you were firmly rosy red in your politics. Are you tellings us you never voted New Labour? Shocking! Well, not really. There are plenty of people in Britain who never run out of breath proclaiming their liberal convictions and credentials in public but then at the polling stations once the curtains are drawn shut they vote with their wallets and heavily tick the box for Conservative Party each and every time. I don't see why you mention Scotland since it is a marginalized part of the UK. It never carries the nation in any election and if it actually declared independence tomorrow no one south of the border would ever notice.

As for Scotland, that's a remarkably stupid and naive statement to make. No-one is going to build a Scottish identity around Catholicism.

Many of Scotland former monarchs were Roman Catholics; Mary Queen of Scots being one of the most well known.

Back in earlier centuries, much like today's immigration patterns, there were many different migrant groups to Scotland, which included Poles, who helped Catholicism to re-emerge there:

The aftermath of the failed Jacobite risings in 1715 and 1745 further damaged the Roman Catholic cause in Scotland, and it was not until Catholic Emancipation in 1793 that Roman Catholicism began to regain civil respectability.

During the 19th century, Irish immigration substantially increased the number of Roman Catholics in the country, especially in the West of Scotland. Later Italian, Polish, and Lithuanian immigrants reinforced those numbers.

Source: wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Scotland

You may think it is far fetched that anyone in Scotland would use religion as a source for identity. But if more and more votes are needed to make independence viable then appeals will be made to show that Scotland historical has always been different from England and the rest of the United Kingdom. And religion is an obvious way to do this. And if it so happens that the Vatican were to endorse or go further and recognize an independent Scotland you can bet it would be used as political capital by separatists.

There's a lot of significant differences, particularly in relation to the Marian cult.

If you actually attended a regular mass at either a CoE or RC church you would find there is very little difference to the services they carry out. And this shows a lack of imagination on the CoE's part even though they broke away from Rome centuries ago and so have had plenty of time to come up with their own script and costumes to wear. Pass a CoE or RC church today, ancient or modern, and you usually still have to stop and look at the sign out front to tell you which one it belongs to.

For those Catholics who pray to the figure called Mary that's their business and it isn't wide spread within or without of the RCC. I see it for what it is: market segmentation. Besides, for Protestant or agnostic feminists who want some spirituality in their lives but would rather throw themselves off a cliff before worshiping a male figure then Mary of Nazareth makes an excellent idol for them to project their thoughts, words and feelings at.

Dream on.

Dare to think.

I'll refer you to the Posting Guidelines below about insulting others here on PF. Apart from that your rant hasn't contributed to this thread.
whyikit 6 | 102
30 Jul 2013 #168
And if it so happens that the Vatican were to endorse or go further and recognize an independent Scotland you can bet it would be used as political capital by separatists.

Yes very it is very far fetched as Scotland has become less and less religious and that is not about to change soon. Due to the image the RCC has and the resulting the issue which happened over recent years there is little chance of that actually happening.

Even if the RCC supported an independent country this would do nothing for the RCC cause in Scotland. The main reason for this is that Scotland has had many religious tensions for a number of years and therefore would not be supported politically as it would cause a riot. This is still evident in a number of places, for instance football, although it is starting to get better I am lead to believe. The segregation that existed years ago is finally starting to leave although there are still areas this exists in the west of Scotland.

Scotland does not try to be different from the rest of the UK and does not look for reasons to be different as there is no need. The last thing that would be need would be to try and make a religious statement over an independence Scotland. To say we need a religion a source of identity is crazy, we know who we are and do not need to redefine ourselves.

Apologies for using the word stupid naïve would be a lot better as it is clear you know very little about the country and the attitudes of people here. I would say they is better chance of Sharia law taking effect in Scotland than it becoming a Catholic state.
Harry
30 Jul 2013 #169
" More than you could possibly fathom boyo."
Did you really just call a Scot "boyo"? Really showing your expert knowledge of the UK there.
Bieganski 17 | 896
30 Jul 2013 #170
Did you read your cohort's original comment? Here, I'll help you out.

Spoken as only a man who doesn't know the UKwould say.

Who cares if I used a Welsh term. Are you going to tell us no one in the UK have ever used regional terms and expressions with each other? LOL.

You should stick to your world of Zionism because you are as much the spokesperson for Britain as you would like to think you are for Poland.
whyikit 6 | 102
30 Jul 2013 #171
spokesperson for Britain as you would like to think you are for Poland.

Coming from the latest spokesman from Scotland.... Kettle black?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
30 Jul 2013 #172
You may think it is far fetched that anyone in Scotland would use religion as a source for identity.

lol no i don't think anyone with a vague awareness of life in the UK would think that far fetched.....
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
30 Jul 2013 #173
More than you could possibly fathom boyo.

Sure, sure. Is that why you use American spellings?

Tony Blair's conversion and the presence of Poles practicing their Catholicism openly would indeed have an influence on those UK persons who desired to become or return to Catholicism but lacked the role models in society to help them commit to going through with it.

I really don't think so. Catholicism is only doing relatively well for one reason - school admissions and the presence of Poles. If the Catholic schools were like in Poland (not so good), then the RCC would be in even more trouble than it already is there.

Before his conversion his wife's Catholicism was criticized by Protestant and secular people in Britain as the reason she had so many children.

No, it was criticised because she was (rightly) criticised for causing Blair to make decisions based on religion rather than for other reasons. The Iraq War was perhaps the finest example of this.

Considering your postings one would have thought you were firmly rosy red in your politics.

Oh dear. I do like how you are commenting on UK affairs from across the pond, but let's start.

No, I never voted New Labour. They were champagne socialists and at best, utter frauds. I've never voted for the Conservatives as well, being ideologically opposed to them on the issue of unionism.

Now, on the issue of Scotland. Perhaps take some time to learn about the West Lothian Question and why Labour are so heavily dependent on it. You could look at how legislation (particularly in the 2005-2010 parliament) was heavily dependent on Scottish votes, and why Labour (despite Scottish Labour being a socialist party) are so bitterly opposed to independence for Scotland. You could also look at why Cameron has offered Scotland further devolution, and the implication for the amount of seats in the UK parliament as a result.

former monarchs

Former. It's not going to happen today, not least because the national Church is Protestant and Catholics are very much a minority.

The Vatican hopefully wouldn't be so stupid as to get involved with such a thing with the presence of a large Protestant majority in Scotland. It's a nice hypothetical situation, but one based in the realm of fantasy.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Jul 2013 #174
Is there any reason why such a person would not make an excellent PM?

To rabid advocates of multi-culti and diversity mania the more off the wall the better! If she were married to an orangutan, that would make her an even more 'qualified' candidate, innit? Weirdness rules!!!
Ant63 13 | 410
30 Jul 2013 #175
Following a recent hearing in Poland and being left incredulous at a judges statement in court which went like this -:

"Mr x has admitted to physically attacking Mrs x but because Mrs x accepted his apology and returned to the marital home, Mrs x by her actions, accepted the physical attacks. Some physical violence is normal in marriage"

It would be difficult to accept this from a man but from a female judge, it's hard to swallow. This led me to try and understand and I found this article which makes a really interesting read.

humanityinaction.org/knowledgebase/159-airing-the-dirty-laundry-exploring-the-challenges-of-domestic-violence-in-poland
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
30 Jul 2013 #176
To rabid advocates of multi-culti and diversity mania the more off the wall the better! If she were married to an orangutan, that would make her an even more 'qualified' candidate, innit? Weirdness rules!!!

I don't know about you, but the best person for the job is the best person for the job.

If you want to talk about "weirdness", a man in his 60's who has never been married thinking he has the right to talk about "the family" is definitely weird.
whyikit 6 | 102
30 Jul 2013 #177
Bieganski:
You may think it is far fetched that anyone in Scotland would use religion as a source for identity

Especially when this sort of thing is still going on, the RCC has little to no hope in Scotland never mind the UK as a whole:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23459459
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23500499

An interesting quote from the above article:

Alan Draper, an academic and former advisor to the Catholic Church in Scotland on child protection issues, said he found the BBC Scotland investigation both "moving and shocking".

He praised the men who shared their stories and said: "What we all saw, was that these men live with the trauma all the time.

"It is the failure of the institution. This is a worldwide issue for the Catholic Church - their failure to reach out to victims."


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