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What British unit liberated Poland in 1945??


Harry
9 Dec 2009 #121
I refuse to believe that you're that stupid. You're just being vicious, therefore
I will not reply to this.

What you mean is that every thing in that post is factually correct and therefore you can not argue against it but you would very much like to. Face the facts: the government of your people was too busy brown-nosing the Russians to send any representatives despite being invited. But instead of blaming your own people for being affraid of Uncle Joe, you lie about the British being frightened of him. At least the British government made a plan for fighting against the Soviets, you just joined their parade.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
9 Dec 2009 #122
If someone invited me somewhere, eventually, bowing to press and public pressure
I would most likely tell him to stick the invitation up his bum.

How would you like it: for them to stand on their knees, kiss your arse and beg to come for the parade? It wasn't some gay pride parade - it was military parade for Christ sake. I accuse Brits for not sending flowers and a box of chocolate with their invitation. It would have melted touchy Polish heart ;)
Piorun - | 658
9 Dec 2009 #123
You mean they directed to the government of Poland which the people of Poland were to frightened of to replace for more than two generations.

Yes it took two generations to accomplish this goal peacefully, no thanks to you. Although you and US seems to think so and take credit for that but I have to admit if it wasn’t for Yalta we would not be in a position to do the inside job so to speak, so we do recognize your contribution. Funny thing is, every time it’s mentioned you seem to take great offense to it.

The Polish invitation

Produce this illusive document once and for all to see, there’s bound to be one somewhere in the museum. Like the Polish navy picture.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #124
the government of your people was too busy brown-nosing
the Russians

You mean the communist govermnment in Soviet occupied Poland???
How could you refer to those puppets as the "government of your
people" is beyond me.

They were no more a government of Polish people than the Vichy
government was the government of French people. They were just
traitors collaborating with the occupying forces.

instead of blaming your own people for being affraid of
Uncle Joe you lie about the British being frightened of him

Show me where did I say anything about British being afraid of Stalin?
You can't? So you were just lying. OK.

I accuse Brits for not sending flowers and a box of chocolate with their invitation. It would have melted touchy Polish heart ;)

I usually enjoy your sense of humour, Nathan, but not necessarily this time.
Honour is not a laughing matter and it was a matter of honour to reject that
invitation.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #125
Produce this illusive document once and for all to see, there’s bound to be one somewhere in the museum.

Well, seeing as it was sent to Poland, you'd be best off asking the Polish government what they did with it. I'd imagine that they shredded it so as to maintain the lie Poles love about not being invited.

Funny thing is, every time it’s mentioned you seem to take great offense to it.

Oh, I don't get at all offended about it. I have no problem with Poland spending 44 years dominated by its powerful neighbour. Interbellum Poland had proved that it was quite willing to bully, oppress and invade its neighbours, what goes around comes around, you get what you give. Pity Poland still hasn't learned that.

How could you refer to those puppets as the "government of your
people" is beyond me.

They were Polish and they were the government of Poland and all of the people in Poland: hence they were the government of your people in both meaning of the words. And they later went on to win the elections promised at Yalta.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #126
They were Polish

Not all of them.

and they were the government of Poland

The puppet government of collaborators in a Soviet occupied Poland
(and even if you refuse to acknowledge that, the British authorities
were well aware of the fact of Soviet occupation of Poland).

and all of the people in Poland

You couldn't be more wrong.
Piorun - | 658
9 Dec 2009 #127
Well, seeing as it was sent to Poland, you'd be best off asking the Polish government what they did with it. I'd imagine that they shredded it so as to maintain the lie Poles love about not being invited.

So you have no record of it, yet you still insist. Face it, no document = no proof.

dominated by its powerful neighbour.

We were not dominated; we were too busy digging holes under their feet for the eventual collapse. Face it, remarkable feat of engineering given how vest Russia is, all that in just 44 years.

And they later went on to win the elections promised at Yalta.

On June 4, 1989. No thanks to you.
enkidu 7 | 623
9 Dec 2009 #128
This is all you have found to answer my post? When you were stealing land with Nazis, this country existed. Nazi Germany is not there anymore, does it mean that there is no value of talking about concentration camps and all statements that there were such camps are invalid?

Yes.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #129
Not all of them.

Really? Can you name the ones who were not Polish and give their nationality?

So you have no record of it, yet you still insist. Face it, no document = no proof.

There's plenty of proof. Look at Hansard (the official publication of the British parliament) from May and June 1946, there were two mentions in debates. Look at the official programme of the victory celebrations and see Poland listed there. Check the British and Australian newspapers from May and June 1946 for discussion as to whether Poland would attend. And then for the kicker read the memoirs of General Anders.

Just because your government has apparently thrown away the invitation doesn't mean that Poles were not invited. You remind me of a five-year-old child who insists that he hasn't been given a note from his teacher to take home about his terrible behaviour.

We were not dominated; we were too busy digging holes under their feet for the eventual collapse.

How did your participation in the invasion of Czechoslovakia do anything to quicken the collapse of communism? Was it just another case of Poland being too cowardly to stand up to Russia or another case of Poland wanting to beat up a weaker neighbour (you invaded and occupied three of your neighbours last century, remember)?
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #130
Really? Can you name the ones who were not Polish and give their nationality?

Hilary Minc was Jewish as well as Anatol Fejgin or Mojżesz Bobrowicki vel Mieczysław
Mietkowski and Natan Gruenspan-Kikiel vel Roman Romkowski from Ministerstwo
Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego (a lot of MBP and local authorithies were of Jewish origin).

Also I think Radkiewicz was half-Russian, but I'd have to check that.
Piorun - | 658
9 Dec 2009 #131
Really? Can you name the ones who were not Polish and give their nationality?

Since you insist
Mieczysław Mietkowski – Jewish
Roman Romkowski – Jewish
Juliusz Hibner – Jewish
Leon Ajzen-Andrzejewski – Jewish
The list is long, too big to fit even on the virtual paper, nationality the same, do you want me to continue?

How did your participation in the invasion of Czechoslovakia do anything to quicken the collapse of communism? Was it just another case of Poland being too cowardly to stand up to Russia or another case of Poland wanting to beat up a weaker neighbour

Where were the brave Brits? Was it just another case of Britain and US being too cowardly to stand up to Russia? I wonder….

five-year-old child who insists that he hasn't been given a note from his teacher to take home about his terrible behaviour.

Interesting I was thinking the same of you.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #132
Hilary Minc was Jewish as well as Anatol Fejgin or Mojżesz Bobrowicki vel Mieczysław
Mietkowski and Natan Gruenspan-Kikiel vel Roman Romkowski from Ministerstwo
Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego (a lot of MBP and local authorithies were of Jewish origin).

Sorry I forgot that anti-semitic bigots like you refuse to believe that people can be Polish and of Jewish roots.

Can you tell me which synagogues those men went to? Did they make sure that all government meeting finished before dark on Friday? Was all the food for the committee kosher?

The best that you've got is that one was half Russian! So they were the government of your people.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
9 Dec 2009 #133
Britain did not fight for just Britain, we fought for all decent people in Europe, including Germans, to free them from the Nazi's.

Are you really sure that Britain declared war on Germany for the noble cause of protecting democracy and freedom, and to help Poland? Could it be that it was more like being worried about Germany getting too strong and challenging the power of the Empire? What interest could Britain possibly have in an unimportant (sorry...) country like Poland? Sometimes I believe that all this "we fought for freedom and democracy" crap is simple propaganda.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #134
Sorry I forgot that anti-semitic bigots like you refuse to believe that people can be Polish and of Jewish roots.

Anti-semitic bigot? Moi? I was called many names, but never that :)

Can you tell me which synagogues those men went to?

I wasn't talking about their religion but their ethnicity. Many of those Jews who
were murdered by the Germans in Poland weren't religious and they didn't frequent
any synagogue. They were murdered, millions of them, only because of their ethnicity.

But of course an anti-semitic bigot like yourself wouldn't know that.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #135
Anti-semitic bigot? Moi? I was called many names, but never that :)

Who but an anti-semitic bigot would claim that Jews can not be Polish?

I wasn't talking about their religion but their ethnicity.

And what does their ethnicity have to do with their nationality? Would you like to tell me that black people can not be Polish? Oh, sorry, I forgot that to you they most certainly can not be.

Could it be that it was more like being worried about Germany getting too strong and challenging the power of the Empire?

More likely it was utter stupidity. Britain should have waited until 1940 and then agreed peace with Germany on the condition that Britain was allowed to regain her former territories in France. Without the French those places would be lovely!
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #136
Who but an anti-semitic bigot would claim that Jews can not be Polish?

I never said that. I only acknowledged their Jewish roots. I wouldn't dream
of refusing them the right to their roots and identity - that would be an
anti-semitic thing to do.

And what does their ethnicity have to do with their nationality?

Nothing, so I guess there weren't any Polish Jews murdered in Poland during WW2
as they all had Polish nationality so they had to be Poles, right?

However, I have a feeling that many Jews wouldn't agree with your point of view.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #137
I never said that. I only acknowledged their Jewish roots.

I asked you to name the ones who were not Polish and give their nationality. You named names and said "Jewish" (plus one half Russian).

Nothing, so I guess there weren't any Polish Jews murdered in Poland during WW2 as they all had Polish nationality so they had to be Poles, right?

They were Jewish Poles. Just as other victims were Romani Poles. Only bigots like you don't think that Jews can not be Poles or that Poles can not be of Jewish ethnicity.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #138
They were Jewish Poles. Just as other victims were Romani Poles. Only bigots like you don't think that Jews can not be Poles or that Poles can not be of Jewish ethnicity.

There were millions of Polish Jews during WW2 and many of those people had very strong
Jewish identity and they would always describe themselves as Jews or Polish Jews at
best, not as Jewish Poles. Only bigots like you can deny people their separate national
and ethnic identities and put them into one bag as "Poles". I guess "Ein volk, ein reich,
ein fuehrer" is a motto of bigots like you.

And if we are talking about the Jewish members of puppet, communist government
in Soviet occupied Poland - they certainly didn't consider themselves Polish if they
helped Soviets to occupy and enslave Poland and murder thousands of Polish patriots.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
9 Dec 2009 #139
on the condition that Britain was allowed to regain her former territories in France

Reversing the Hundred Years' War? Cool idea, but I'm not so sure that the French would love it... ;)
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #140
Only bigots like you can deny people their separate national
and ethnic identities and put them into one bag as "Poles". I guess "Ein volk, ein reich,
ein fuehrer" is a motto of bigots like you.

Are you so idiotic that you consider "Jewish" to be a nationality? What nation is that? Jewland? Does that country issue passports?

Or are you so bigotted that you can not get your tiny mind round the fact that it is possible for people other than white Catholics to be Poles?

And if we are talking about the Jewish members of puppet, communist government in Soviet occupied Poland - they certainly didn't consider themselves Polish if they helped Soviets to occupy and enslave Poland and murder thousands of Polish patriots.

Did they consider themselves Jews? Did they go to the synagogue? Eat only kosher food? Refuse to work on the sabbath?

Face facts they were Poles, just like the vast majority of the people who kept Poland as a Soviet satellite until 1989. Stop blaming the Jews/British/men from Mars and deal with history. What goes around comes around and until Poland learns that one gets what one gives, Poland will continue to get sh!t.

Reversing the Hundred Years' War? Cool idea, but I'm not so sure that the French would love it... ;)

Which makes it doubly attractive!
TheOther 6 | 3,821
9 Dec 2009 #141
they certainly didn't consider themselves Polish if they
helped Soviets to occupy and enslave Poland and murder thousands of Polish patriots

So the millions of members of the Polish communist party didn't consider themselves Polish either?
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #142
Are you so idiotic that you consider "Jewish" to be a nationality? What nation is that? Jewland? Does that country issue passports?

Oh, so the fact that there weren't Israel back then (a Jewish country issuing passports
to Jews from Poland and other European countries) means that there weren't Jewish
people?

Or are you so bigotted that you can not get your tiny mind round the
fact that it is possible for people other than white Catholics to be Poles?

Of course it is possible. It is also possible for the citizens of Poland to have strong
ethnic identity - be it Jewish, Ukrainian or even German. As much as bigots like you
would like to refuse them that right, they are still entitled to their separate identity.

Did they consider themselves Jews? Did they go to the synagogue?
Eat only kosher food? Refuse to work on the sabbath?

I told you - they weren't religious. They were Jews by ethnicity, but might as
well be atheists, but I think I can see what you're getting at - you mean that
they had Polish passports, so they had to be Poles. That's debatable.

Face facts they were Poles

Polish Jews. They had Polish nationality and citizenship but were ethnic Jews
(I don't know why is it so hard to comprehend).

just like the vast majority of the people who kept Poland as a Soviet satellite until 1989

Of course there were also Poles who were traitors and Soviet puppets.
Do you think I don't know that?

Stop blaming the Jews/British/men from Mars

I'm not BLAMING anyone. Merely stating historical facts. Communist government
in Soviet occupied Poland in 1945 can not be considered a valid Polish government
of all Polish people
, as you said (I believe that's how the argument started).

So the millions of members of the Polish communist party didn't consider themselves Polish either?

I don't know. I guess you would have to ask a member of the Polish communist
party what was his/her national identity and allegiance.
Communism is so alien to Polish ethos and identity that I doubt if they did
consider themselves Polish.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #143
Oh, so the fact that there weren't Israel back then (a Jewish country issuing passports to Jews from Poland and other European countries) means that there weren't Jewish people?

Israel is not Jewland. Not all Israelis are Jewish. Just as not all Jews are Israeli. I'm beginning to think that you actually are too stupid to tell the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

Polish Jews. They had Polish nationality and citizenship but were ethnic Jews
(I don't know why is it so hard to comprehend).

Jewish is not a nationality. Polish is a nationality. So they must have been Polish!

Communist government
in Soviet occupied Poland in 1945 can not be considered a valid Polish government
of all Polish people, as you said (I believe that's how the argument started).

Don't be so stupid. No government represents all people in a nation, it just represents the people in general.

I don't know. I guess you would have to ask a member of the Polish communist party what was his/her national identity and allegiance.
Communism is so alien to Polish ethos and identity that I doubt if they did
consider themselves Polish.

No, it was alien to your Polish ethos. They were Poles and proud of it. You can't be proud of them and so try to deny that they were Poles. But we all know they were.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #144
I'm beginning to think that you actually are too stupid to tell the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

I'm beginning to think that you failed to improve your appalling reading comprehension.
I said that they were Polish Jews - Polish nationality, Jewish etnicity, simple as that :-)

You, on the other hand, wanted to prove that they were simply Poles (indirectly implying
that there can't be Poles of Jewish, Ukrainian or German ethnicity).

Seriously, I'm beginning to believe that some of the things that z_darius have
told me about you are actually true, Harry.
Harry
9 Dec 2009 #145
I have always said that they were Poles. You claimed that they were not Poles. I asked you to name names and give nationalities. You gave names and described them as "Jewish". So you now wish to agree that they were Polish. Good. We're agreed: the post-war provisional government of Poland was comprised of Polish people. Sorry that it hurts your Polish pride so much for you to have to admit that.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
9 Dec 2009 #146
I don't know. I guess you would have to ask a member of the Polish communist
party what was his/her national identity and allegiance.
Communism is so alien to Polish ethos and identity that I doubt if they did
consider themselves Polish.

I dunno.....millions of people in the Warsaw Pact where members of their communists parties.
I would rather doubt their commitment to the communist ideals as membership in the state party was more or less required in many places but why should they didn't consider themselves polish, german, czech, hungarian or else?

I'm not talking about the real bastards here...but after all settled down becoming a member of such a state party was like nowadays China...all open smiles and behind the back groaning.
enkidu 7 | 623
9 Dec 2009 #147
I have always said that they were Poles. You claimed that they were not Poles. I asked you to name names and give nationalities. You gave names and described them as "Jewish". So you now wish to agree that they were Polish. Good. We're agreed: the post-war provisional government of Poland was comprised of Polish people. Sorry that it hurts your Polish pride so much for you to have to admit that.

Is that mean that there was no Jews in Poland at all? Is that mean that all Holocaust was about killing Polish citizens - not Jews? Wow! I didn't know that.

And Hellen - what did darius said? That's interesting.
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #148
the post-war provisional government of Poland was comprised of Polish people.

Well, if by Polish you understand "having Polish passports", then yes - they were Polish.

I naturally meant their ethnicity, not nationality as it's quite obvious that members
of Polish government had to have Polish passports (it was the law then and I believe
it is still the law today).

Your whole argument was to prove that members of Polish government were required
to have Polish passports? In that case - you are right of course. Sorry, I thought you
were trying to say something else.

@BB:

You have a good point there, BB. Not all members of communist parties in eastern
bloc were really communists. I guess that's a vast subject that would merit a whole
new thread. However, I still say that being communist (real communist) is completely
alien to Polish ethos and everything that polishness stands for and stood for in the
past.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,914
9 Dec 2009 #149
However, I still say that being communist (real communist) is completely
alien to Polish ethos and everything that polishness stands for and stood for in the
past.

Really?

The "Noble Democracy" was somewhat communist in thinking, what with the liberal, multicultural approach that it had. Pilsudski was also a socialist, wasn't he? Even today, all the major parties have a certain element of socialism in their thinking - what with PO and PiS' origins in Solidarity and the SLD's role as a post-communist party.

I strongly believe that Solidarity would have happily accepted a real power-sharing agreement with the communists had it been on offer - to the exclusion of real democracy. If you look at what Walesa was trying to achieve - he was clearly after workers control of workplaces, but not so much interested in political power.

(of course, post-1989 Walesa is different!)
Torq 28 | 2,759
9 Dec 2009 #150
The "Noble Democracy" was somewhat communist in thinking

Oh, yes - absolutely. Kings, nobles, serfdom, opressed peasants - perfect communist
thinking ;)

Pilsudski was also a socialist, wasn't he?

So was Adolf Hitler :) He wasn't a communist though.

Even today, all the major parties have a certain element of socialism in their thinking - what with PO and PiS' origins in Solidarity and the SLD's role as a post-communist party.

As much as I don't like mainstream political parties, I wouldn't go as far as
suspecting them of being communist (even SLD let go of that nonsense
and they're simply socialists.)

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