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What British unit liberated Poland in 1945??


Harry
7 Jan 2010 #421
One day IPN are clowns on a witch hunt, today they are not.

I don't recall seeing anybody here call the IPN clowns. There is no doubt that there are clowns working at the IPN and that two of those clowns recently wrote a book about a former electrician but the IPN as a body is certainly not clowns on a witch hunt. They're actually pretty good at dealing with history, it's current affairs that they suck at. Look how hard they went at Helena Wolińska-Brus and Salomon Morel but showed no interest at all in Anthony Sawoniuk or Szymon Serafinowicz and they still show no interest in Bronislaw Hajda. And let's not even mention the way that they stitched up Andrzej Przewoznik!
1jola 14 | 1,879
7 Jan 2010 #422
Look how hard they went at Helena Wolińska-Brus and Salomon Morel but showed no interest at all in Anthony Sawoniuk or Szymon Serafinowicz

This is getting so boring.

Szymon Serafinowicz appeared at the Old Bailey in 1997 accused of killing Jews while he was a police chief in his native Belarus when it was occupied by the Nazis.
However, the jury eventually ruled the former carpenter, who fled to Britain at the end of the war, was not fit to stand trial because of dementia.

Ask the British, who make their country a safehaven for criminals like Wolinska and Kern. After all, communist crimes are not considered crimes in the UK. Israel also is a safehaven for communist criminals as was the case of Morel. A real beast, but Jewish, so he got a free pass. Many others emigrated to Israel as well, as you know.

Since killing Jews for the Nazis is a crime in Britain, but killing Poles for communists is not, Sawoniuk, living in Britain was prosecuted there.

As to Hajda, what is he accussed of? I have never heard about him.

You

I don't recall seeing anybody here call the IPN clowns.

Jonni.

two of those clowns recently wrote a book about a former electrician but the IPN as a body is certainly not clowns on a witch hunt.

This must be some sick jelousy on your part as a struggling writer, Harry. Those two respected Polish historians, with PhD's and many important scientific publications, are far from being clowns, but you, well, how is that guide to Warsaw's kebab stands coming along?
Torq 32 | 2,999
7 Jan 2010 #423
together with Articles 87-93 of Treaty of Versailles it also formally established Poland as a sovereign and independent state on the international arena.[1][2][3]

The more suitable word would be "reestablished". Poland's independence
was restored - it's not like our country was created for the first time as
an independent state thanks to the treaty.
Harry
7 Jan 2010 #424
accused of killing Jews while he was a police chief in his native Belarus

More lazy British journalists. I can hear them now thinking "It's Belarus now so it must have been Belarus then and he's from there so he must be a native of Belarus", it simply doesn't occur to Brits that borders move often and extensively! Perhaps you can explain how somebody can be a native of a country which he has never visited and not be a native of the country in which he was born and which his parents were citizens of. And then perhaps you can explain why you consider the town of Mir (where he was accused of killing those Jews) was not in Poland. Remember that the government and state of Poland were very clear that Mir was in Poland.

Ask the British, who make their country a safehaven for criminals like Wolinska and Kern. After all, communist crimes are not considered crimes in the UK.

Or in Poland apparently. Only one other person involved in the murder of Fieldorf was charged despite most of them living in Poland, and she was allowed to avoid justice by simply not bothering to go to court for the rest of her life.

Israel also is a safehaven for communist criminals as was the case of Morel. A real beast, but Jewish, so he got a free pass.

Yes he was a complete bastard and yes he did get a free pass. However, Czeslaw Geborski wasn't Jewish, was every bit as much of a bastard and he got a free pass to, in Poland!

As to Hajda, what is he accussed of? I have never heard about him.

According to a couple of US courts (who revoked his US nationality) he was a Pole and one of the guards at Treblinka
cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/135/439/507558

Jonni.

Jonni called the two authors clowns. I do too. Nobody called the IPN as a body 'clowns'.

a struggling writer, Harry.

Struggling is not a word I'd use to describe myself. Then again, I wouldn't describe myself as a writer either. Would you describe yourself as a US airman?

how is that guide to Warsaw's kebab stands coming along?

Still waiting for you to transfer the upfront payment for it. You know that these days I only take commission work. And frankly I'd probably subcontract this one to Suvoro's son: I know bugger all about kebabs.
Ironside 49 | 10,305
7 Jan 2010 #425
I don't need institute I can interpret evidence myself and I say that in the jedwabne case that killing had been done by german unit.

evidently some elements of the local population were present at the time of the killing but there no evidence whatsoever that local population have anything to do with it.
Harry
7 Jan 2010 #426
I don't need institute I can interpret evidence myself and I say that in the jedwabne case that killing had been done by german unit.

And what evidence are you interpreting here? Your usual opinions (i.e. all Poles are good, all Germans are bastards and the Jews were most probably to blame anyway)?

there no evidence whatsoever that local population have anything to do with it.

The people who were actually there that day say otherwise.
Ironside 49 | 10,305
7 Jan 2010 #427
don't be absurd

The people who were actually there that day say otherwise.

people? one person who was allegedly there at that day
1jola 14 | 1,879
7 Jan 2010 #428
And then perhaps you can explain why you consider the town of Mir (where he was accused of killing those Jews) was not in Poland.

I said nothing like that. I just quoted the British article. Now, you are suggesting that the Polish government knew he was in Britain. Where are you getting this info? And since the Brits started prosecuting him in 1997, then did they also know he was there all along. Maybe this is a British-Polish conspiracy to hide Nazi criminals? Any other nonsense?

Yes, this:

Only one other person involved in the murder of Fieldorf was charged despite most of them living in Poland, and she was allowed to avoid justice by simply not bothering to go to court for the rest of her life.

This deserves a reply for my slow student. It will come later.

Yes he was a complete bastard and yes he did get a free pass.

Why did Morel get a free pass from Israel. I'm interested in your opinion on this.

However, Czeslaw Geborski wasn't Jewish, was every bit as much of a bastard and he got a free pass to, in Poland!

He was a Stalinist beast who was working for Berman (a Jew) and murdered Poles. The attempt to prosecute him was discontinued in 2005 because of his failing health. Your weak, weak attempt to insinuate that only Jews are to be prosecuted is comical in this case since he was not Jewish, as far as I know, but I want to be sure that is what you are suggesting or not. What is it that you actually want to say, because you are jumping all over the place with more and more ridiculous examples.

According to a couple of US courts (who revoked his US nationality) he was a Pole and one of the guards at Treblinka

I've read your link and the only charge the US gov't could find against him is that he lied on his visa application. No criminal charges of killing anyone. More interesting was the note at the end of the link though:

that, of the 400,000 or so refugees who entered the United States after WWII, 100,000 were former Nazis or Nazi collaborators. John Francis Stephens, The Denaturalization and Extradition of Ivan the Terrible, 26 Rutgers L.J. 821, 825 n. 28 (1995) (citing Allan A. Ryan, Quiet Neighbors: Prosecuting Nazi War Criminals in America 26 (1984))

Looks like the US is harboring criminals in addition to Britain, Israel, Sweden, among others.

According to a couple of US courts (who revoked his US nationality) he was a Pole and one of the guards at Treblinka

Just to get back to Hajda. That would be Treblinka I, which was a camp for Poles. Jews went to Treblinka II, not that it matters that much.

Please, answer my question above.

Jonni called the two authors clowns. I do too.

That's fine, but neither one of you have read their 700 page book, sort of like Sjam criticizing the film Soviet Story before he saw it. You guys are leftist parrots.
Harry
7 Jan 2010 #429
I said nothing like that. I just quoted the British article.

So you agree that he was a Pole who committed his crimes in Poland? Good.

Now, you are suggesting that the Polish government knew he was in Britain. Where are you getting this info?

Your idea is that the British made no mention at all to any Polish body about this bloke? No requests for any witness statements or other info at all? Come on! You can do better than that.

Why did Morel get a free pass from Israel.

The Israeli state has a lot of problems. One of those is their attitude towards crimes committed by Jews outside Israeli.

He was a Stalinist beast who was working for Berman (a Jew) and murdered Poles.

Your statement would have a lot more weight to it if you hadn't claimed that Berman was a Jew. Could you perhaps name the synagogues he went to? Or the kosher butcher which supplied the ministry canteen?

Brus was (quite rightly) hounded to her grave. Why didn't the Polish government give her the free pass they gave Geborski?

Looks like the US is harboring criminals in addition to Britain, Israel, Sweden, among others.

How does the word harbouring apply to those countries when Poland also gives free passes due to ill health. At least Britain has managed to prosecute at least a single bastard from that era.

neither one of you have read their 700 page book

I didn't need to read the collected writings of Stalin to know that that guy was a complete bastard. I'm not going to waste time reading 700 pages of witch-hunting (to use the IPN approved term).
1jola 14 | 1,879
7 Jan 2010 #430
Your idea is that the British made no mention at all to any Polish body about this bloke?

You are making things up and you're disappointed that I don't want to. Are we children?

The Israeli state has a lot of problems. One of those is their attitude towards crimes committed by Jews outside Israeli.

Every state has problems. So, you sheepishly admit they don't consider crimes against non-Jews as crimes. At least in this case. You are so understanding though.

Why didn't the Polish government give her the free pass they gave Geborski?

They were prosecuting him. What is wrong with you? The IPN wanted prosecution, the court agreed with doctors to stop. Now, you didn't answer my question. Who is to blame? Another question you evaded: according to you, does IPN want to only prosecute Jewish criminals? That is what you're hinting.

I didn't need to read the collected writings of Stalin to know that that guy was a complete bastard. I'm not going to waste time reading 700 pages of witch-hunting

But you know that he didn't work for SB. Wonder how?
Harry
7 Jan 2010 #431
You are making things up and you're disappointed that I don't want to.

Making up what? That Britain has prosecuted more Poles who took part in the holocaust than Poland has?

So, you sheepishly admit they don't consider crimes against non-Jews as crimes. At least in this case.

I say no such thing. The free pass for Morel was precisely the same as the free pass given to Geborski. I condemn both but you only condemn one; which just happens to be the one given to the Jew, what a coincidence there!

Another question you evaded: according to you, does IPN want to only prosecute Jewish criminals?

I'm not saying that at all, clearly they do want to prosecute gentiles too. I'm saying that they seem to chase Jews harder than gentiles.

But you know that he didn't work for SB.

You appear to be getting confused: the SB worked for Stalin, not the other way round.
1jola 14 | 1,879
7 Jan 2010 #432
Making up what? That Britain has prosecuted more Poles who took part in the holocaust than Poland has?

Just because Ksysia couldn't give you what you asked for doesn't mean that I can't, and there were plenty of collaborants hanged after the war, but this is getting boring.

I say no such thing. The free pass for Morel was precisely the same as the free pass given to Geborski.

Israel didn't see Morel as a criminal; Geborski was being prosecuted and it was halted because of doctors' decission in 2005. He died a year later. If you call these reasons precisely the same, than you are unable to compare simple concepts.

I condemn both but you only condemn one; which just happens to be the one given to the Jew, what a coincidence there!

You call this a condemnation? This:

The Israeli state has a lot of problems. One of those is their attitude towards crimes committed by Jews outside Israeli.

Let me be also full of condemnation:

There was never any anti-Semitism in Poland; some people had only a different attitude towards Jews. Fair?

but you only condemn one; which just happens to be the one given to the Jew, what a coincidence there!

Get this straight. What difference is the nationality of a murderer? As you have seen over and over from me, I call for prosecution of all the communists guilty of crimes, including Jews since they had a leading role in the state terror apparatus. I would have hanged Geborski and Morel personally. They would have played paper, scissors who goes first.

I'm saying that they seem to chase Jews harder than gentiles.

Seem. Only to you. In Fieldorf's case, all eight key people were Jews. What to do? Throw in a few Poles for fairness and balance?

You appear to be getting confused: the SB worked for Stalin, not the other way round.

No, you are. Walesa worked for SB and Stalin has nothing to do with this. If you had read the book, you would see the SB documents for yourself, his hand-written notes and criminal lab handwriting analysis and many other irefutable facts. Instead you blindly defend someone based on...you refused to say and threw in Stalin there. Poor performance today, Harry. Bon nuit, mon cher.
Harry
8 Jan 2010 #433
this is getting boring.

On that we agree!

Morel wasn't extradited the first time because the statute of limitations had expired and the second because he was in poor health. He died 18 months later. Although with that said, the comments made in the second letter in the paragraph starting "Furthermore" show that the Israeli authorities have more than a just a habit of being complete arseholes.

There was never any anti-Semitism in Poland; some people had only a different attitude towards Jews. Fair?

Half fair. It is perfectly true that some people has a different attitude towards Jews. The problem is that they had that attitude towards Jews simply because Jews were Jews, i.e. the attitude was in itself anti-semitic. Make sense?

What difference is the nationality of a murderer?

And let's get this straight: Jewish is not a nationality.

Walesa worked for SB ..... you blindly defend

Walesa is a topic for another thread. If I get time I'll start one later today but more probably keep it for next Monday (I don't intend to be online over the weekend).
1jola 14 | 1,879
8 Jan 2010 #434
And let's get this straight: Jewish is not a nationality.

Gęborski in his personal file would have had something like this:

Narodowość: polska

Obywatelstwo: polskie

Morel's like this:

Narodowość: żydowska

Obywatelstwo: polskie

One is nationality and the other citizenship. Although the term pochodzenie or ethnicity is used sometimes in documents, narodowość or nationality was used at the period we are referring to. I didn't make up the rules. We got it straight now.
Harry
8 Jan 2010 #435
I am well aware of the translation issue. Let me put it this way: is Catholic a nationality? Hindu? Muslim? Mormon? Moonie? If they are not, why is Jewish a nationality?
1jola 14 | 1,879
8 Jan 2010 #436
Not all Jews are religious, some/many don't believe in God, yet they are still Jewish.

On Liberty Forum, now defunct, we used to have a fairly hostile poster called Bacon Eating Atheist Jew. He still blogs somewhere, but I lost touch with him. He is proud to be Jewish and who am I take that away from him. It's a circular discussion anyway, so let's not have it, but pretend that we did.
Harry
8 Jan 2010 #437
Not all Jews are religious, some/many don't believe in God, yet they are still Jewish.

I'd go with Einstein's view: Jews believe in the God of Jews; Jewish people do not, but had at least one ancestor who did.

But if we agree that being Jewish is something which one inherits, does that make it a nationality? Is black a nationality? Romani? Arabic? Hispanic? If they are not, why is Jewish?
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
8 Jan 2010 #438
I don't believe in Religion but I am still a Catholic.

I was Baptized and Confirmed so I am a Catholic. It is still a religion and not a nationality.
yehudi 1 | 432
8 Jan 2010 #439
Hindu? Muslim? Mormon? Moonie? If they are not, why is Jewish a nationality?

Because our religion is a national religion.We are a nation that has it's own religion and we're a religion that has it's own nation. Our nationhood was on hold because of the exile from the land of Israel, and so it took a different form, emphasizing the religion. Jews were absorbed (some more, some less) into the counties where we lived, so individuals like you, for example, can choose to identify as a Canadian of the Jewish faith. That's your right as an individual. But the core of the nation has never lost its identity. Now that we have a country again, the nature of our nationhood is shifting again, and it puts people like you in an ambiguous state. But these issues will iron themselves out over the next 200 years or so.
1jola 14 | 1,879
8 Jan 2010 #440
But if we agree that being Jewish is something which one inherits, does that make it a nationality?

I might come to you as a great surprise that I did not invent the Polish language, nor all its terminology.

I suppose you will have a problem why we call the Jewish peoples Naród Wybrany(the Chosen Nation), and not Lud Wybrany(the Chosen People)?

You will have take it up with the Cherokees also, why they call themselves the Cherokee Nation, and so forth.

Since we are on a Polish forum, yes, using English, some pedantry can be avoided when we understand what we are saying. This is not a scientific forum so ease up.
Harry
8 Jan 2010 #441
I might come to you as a great surprise that I did not invent the Polish language, nor all its terminology.

Of course that's your story. But I'll carry on blaming you for it until you can prove that you didn't invent it!

I suppose you will have a problem why we call the Jewish peoples Naród Wybrany(the Chosen Nation), and not Lud Wybrany(the Chosen People)?

No problem at all if you call them Naród Wybrany. Just as long as you remember that Jewish is not a nationality.

You will have take it up with the Cherokees also, why they call themselves the Cherokee Nation, and so forth.

If they wish to self describe in that way, that is their choice. I'd be more than happy to accept Cherokee as a valid nationality: they've got a tiny bit of their own land left and run their own government.
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
8 Jan 2010 #442
yehudi

Believe what you want to believe. A religion is not a nationality. In Israel you have Israelis who are Christians, not all are Jewish.
Harry
8 Jan 2010 #443
Because our religion is a national religion.We are a nation that has it's own religion

I bet that's a comfort to all the non-Jewish Israelis. Still, given the difference in birth rates, it won't be long before Jewish people are a minority in Israel.

it puts people like you in an ambiguous state.

People like what exactly?
lesser 4 | 1,311
8 Jan 2010 #444
Just as long as you remember that Jewish is not a nationality.

I have seen two American Jews arguing about this issue. One seemed to be worried that if we define Jewishness to be something more than religious convictions then many would deny him the right to be an American as well. The second one was an atheist. Both of them would call you anti-Semite if you dare to disagree with their point of view. Funny enough...
gregy741 4 | 1,204
8 Jan 2010 #445
o they may be atheists,but all jews have one god they love most - money....

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