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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #181
The correct answer is, of course, 'yes' but it is one which you will hear from few Poles.

Why did Lithuania enter Polish territory on August 27th, 1920?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 May 2011 #182
So you're never going to whine again about your country getting bent-over and arse-raped for six years by the Nazis and then 45 years by the commies. Good to hear that.

O curse I will it is called legitimation. If I could do what I please I would have nuked you all slime bastards ! Helping the world - my ass !

Soviets were liberating countries - from their possessions. you do the same, you were just more cleaver about it!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #183
If it was Polish before then when did it legitimately become Lithuanian?

You say it was legitimate, i say it was not. Also some pro baiting mate.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
24 May 2011 #184
Don't be childish Harry. You don't have to hold a gun to anybody's head to be responsible for a crime, and Brits have been particularly good about blaming others for their own faults. UK and France broke a major treaty giving green light to all interested to do whatever they pleased. Germans took it all, minus a little scrap of land that Poles felt belonged to them.

It is yet another example of the colossal "reinterpretation" of history for the mainstream UK based consumption. Heck, even then, the day Chamberlain, that irresponsible and shortsighted moron, came back from Munich and gave out some gibberish about averting a war and about preserving Britain's honor. No serious historian or politician then or now would take the moron seriously, and neither of Chamberlain's statements was true.

Czech's call the issue of British and French betrayal zdrada zapada. Facts are facts, and no amount of denying them will change history. The British broke one of the most important treaties, even though there were among of those who were supposed to guard its implementation. Period.
Harry
24 May 2011 #185
Why did Lithuania enter Polish territory on August 27th, 1920?

No idea. Was that territory agreed to be Poland? Oh, no, it wasn't.
But Poland most certainly did invade what it had agreed to be Lithuania.

You don't have to hold a gun to anybody's head to be responsible for a crime, and Brits have been particularly good about blaming others for their own faults. UK and France broke a major treaty giving green light to all interested to do whatever they pleased.

So you can not actually say what the British did that broke the treaty. Or can you perhaps quote the part of the treaty that states that Britain was responsible for preventing other countries from breaking the treaty?

Only a Pole could complain about Britain breaking a treaty by not preventing other countries from breaking it, when the first country which broke the treaty by invading Czechoslovakia was none other than Poland!

Germans took it all, minus a little scrap of land that Poles felt belonged to them.

It is yet another example of the colossal "reinterpretation" of history for the mainstream UK based consumption.

That is almost as superb as you claiming that Britain broke the treaty by preventing Poland from invading Czechoslovakia! You lie about history and then whine about other people 'reinterpreting' it!

The British broke one of the most important treaties, even though there were among of those who were supposed to guard its implementation.

You can make that statement as often as you want, but can you quote the part of the treaty which made the British responsible for keeping Polish troops out of Czechoslovakia? No, you can't.
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #186
No idea. Was that territory agreed to be Poland? Oh, no, it wasn't.
But Poland most certainly did invade what it had agreed to be Lithuania.

With whom? A party not recognized by the international community as legitimate government of any country?
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
24 May 2011 #187
I'm sorry, I was unaware that British and French units joined the joint Polish-Nazi force which invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938.

youtube.com/watch?v=nZHpprf6HSM

Don't be silly, Brits and French had it all settled way ahead of everyone else, typically British Style with a single stroke of the pen. Proof is somewhere in the museum archives.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #188
I think Sokrates already mentioned it before - the biggest mistake Poland ever made was to let the Brandenburg Hohenzollerns overtake Prussia (after the lineage of Albrecht Hohenzollern died out) - instead of just taking the Prussia over
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
24 May 2011 #189
I do not think that a blunder....

*tries to think about a world without Prussia*

*panics*


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 May 2011 #190
The point is that Lithuania grabbed a city full of Poles by force and then shot/opressed/stole from them, that gave Poland every right to intervene via military means when diplomacy failed didnt it?

Here is the glorious Polish "army" or better "zbrodniarzy w mundurach" in action:

In Lviv (then Lwów or Lemberg) in 1918, after the Polish Army captured the city, seventy-two Jews were killed by a Polish mob that included Polish soldiers. The report states that in Lemberg Lviv "disreputable elements [from the Polish Army] plundered to the extent of many millions of crowns the dwellings and stores in the Jewish quarter, and did not hesitate to murder when they met with resistance."[11]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Report

Immediately after capturing the city, in the end of November, elements of Polish forces as well as common criminalslooted the Jewish and Ukrainian quarters of the city, killing approximately 340 civilians.[8][9][10]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Ukrainian_War

which if you look at the maps of the lands they claimed was kind of megalomaniac

It is natural for intellectual dwarfs, gumishu.

If Vilnius was Lithuanian, they shouldn't have entered the battlefield, simple as that. As they did enter the battlefield, they should have expected we would fight for it.

Wow. Why did you fight for 3 weeks against the Nazis then in 1939? Why fight if it is yours? The Lithuanians fought because it was their capital and because they knew what the Polish army will do to their city after the capture: loot, destroy the stores, steal private property and kill civilians. Any reasonable person would defend their city against this type of barbarians.
Harry
24 May 2011 #191
With whom? A party not recognized by the international community as legitimate government of any country?

Do you wish to claim that in October 1920 Lithuania was not recognised as a country or that the government of Lithuania was not recognised as legitimate? More importantly, can you prove either of those claims? I somehow very much doubt it.

Brits and French had it all settled way ahead of everyone else, typically British Style with a single stroke of the pen. Proof is somewhere in the museum archives.

So you also want to claim that the Polish-Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938 was not the fault of Poland and Nazi Germany but in reality the fault of the British and French for not stopping the invading forces. OK then, so now we can agree that the Nazi-Soviet invasion of Poland was not the fault of the USSR and Nazi Germany but in reality the fault of Poland for not stopping the invading forces.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #192
Here is the glorious Polish "army" or better "zbrodniarzy w mundurach" in action:

Nathan you're quoting a wiki article that you yourself edited, last time you edited a battle in which you increased the size of participating armies about 10 times over.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
24 May 2011 #193
OK then, so now we can agree that the Nazi-Soviet invasion of Poland was not the fault of the USSR and Nazi Germany but in reality the fault of Poland for not stopping the invading forces.

Once again, Brits decided to sit this one out way before Soviets stepped in. It’s British fault.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
24 May 2011 #194
Harry, Britain broke a major treaty. There is no way on earth to deny it regardless of what little silly details you're asking me to cite. In this case it was not about details but about a major betrayal. Betrayal so bad that the Brits even dissuaded Czechs from fighting when Benes expressed his willingness to do exactly that. Britain dumped a country for a few months of questionable stability. That is reminiscent of the British suggestion for Poland not to prepare for war because that could tick Hitler off.

Britain turned out to be a coward nation, lead by a traitor and a shortsighted moron. Deal with with the history of your own country before you ask Poles to deal with theirs. To complain about unquestionable wrongdoing of Poland within its history but rejecting those of the country whose passport you carry is like worrying about mosquitoes while you are surrounded by wolves.
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #195
The city was Polish and no such incidents occurred.

Do you wish to claim that in October 1920 Lithuania was not recognised as a country or that the government of Lithuania was not recognised as legitimate? More importantly, can you prove either of those claims? I somehow very much doubt it.

I was talking about Bolsheviks, the only side that recognized Lithuania's rights to Vilnius in August 1920. As Poland did not recognize Bolshevik government until November 1920, your claims that Lithuania entered Lithuanian territory on August 27th is wrong. They were occupying ethnically Polish land until Żeligowski kicked them out.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 May 2011 #196
The city was Polish

Then why did you fight? According to your logic the fight is not necessary when the city is yours.

no such incidents occurred

I don't know about what happened in Vilnius, but in Lviv the Polish barbarians murdered civilians, looted the stores and stole whatever they could. The Lithuanians didn't want to risk it on their lands.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #197
you have interesting sources - btw there were almost no Lithuanians to rob in Wilno A.D 1920 (except for the military pesonnel)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #198
I don't know about what happened in Vilnius, but in Lviv the Polish barbarians murdered civilians, looted the stores and stole whatever they could. The Lithuanians didn't want to risk it on their lands.

There were pretty much no Lithuanians in Vilnius. It wasn't their land, either.

Then why did you fight? According to your logic the fight is not necessary when the city is yours.

We wouldn't had Lithuania agreed on plebiscite.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 May 2011 #199
Nathan you're quoting a wiki article that you yourself edited,

Not only that .....he is that kind of guy who would spit into a somebody's tea and then accuse an innocent passerby of that !

Must be an Ukrainian trait.

I-S (waits for BB to defend Nathan)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 May 2011 #200
you have interesting sources - btw there were almost no Lithuanians to rob in Wilno A.D 1920 (except for the military pesonnel)

There were no Poles in Vilnius A.D 1920 except Polish invading barbarians. The rest were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian empire. I see we are on the same page.

As Poland did not recognize Bolshevik government until November 1920, your claims that Lithuania entered Lithuanian territory on August 27th is wrong.

Did you recognize the government you aimed to install forcefully in Lithuania in 1919 by overthrowing their legitimite government?

It wasn't their land, either

Was it yours?

We wouldn't had Lithuania agreed on plebiscite.

Poles organized "plebiscite" in August 1919:

The Polish coup d'état attempt in Lithuania refers to a failed attempt by Józef Piłsudski to overthrow the existing government of Lithuania, led by Prime Minister Mykolas Sleževièius, and install a more pro-Polish cabinet that would agree to a union with Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Polish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt_in _Lithuania

Scumbags, no comment.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #201
There were no Poles in Vilnius A.D 1920 except Polish invading barbarians. The rest were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian empire. I see we are on the same page.

But more than 67% of citizens of Vilinus spoke polish and thought of themselves as Poles.

Did you recognize the government you aimed to install forcefully in Lithuania in 1919 by overthrowing their legitimite government

That i'm afraid is not true, Poland never overthrew any lithuanian goverment.
Crow 146 | 9,117
24 May 2011 #202
Poland's biggest historical blunder?

recognition of Kosovo separation from Serbia. It was mistake by official Poland. Luckily, Poland can always annul its Kosovo recognition and Poland would do it sooner or later, as we all know
Harry
24 May 2011 #203
It wasn't their land

According to a treaty signed by Poland in October 1920, it was indeed Lithuanian land.
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #204
Temporarily Lithuanian. And I was talking about August 1920.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #205
Sok, I meant legitimate in the sense of officially acknowledged as such but we all know that that isn't the be all and the end all of the matter.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #206
But more than 67% of citizens of Vilinus spoke polish and thought of themselves as Poles.

and the rest were Jewish with some 2 per cent Lithuanians
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #207
Sok, I meant legitimate in the sense of officially acknowledged as such but we all know that that isn't the be all and the end all of the matter.

Which is exactly my point, Lithuania did absolutely everything possible to cause polish intervention, you dont f*ck over your bigger stronger neighbor in the fashion they did and expect peace and quiet, its a bit like stealing and not expecting to go to jail.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #208
Oh, some steal better than you think ;)

I think they learned not to trust the Russian govt either.
porzeczka - | 102
24 May 2011 #209
In Lviv (then Lwów or Lemberg) in 1918, after the Polish Army captured the city, seventy-two Jews were killed by a Polish mob that included Polish soldiers

Strangely, it's hard to find wikipedia's information about massacres committed by the Ukrainian army in 1918-1921 (not because they didn't happen).

Ukrainian nationalist forces led by Petlura were responsible for 493 separate massacres.

Manus I. Midlarsky (2005), The killing trap: genocide in the seventeenth century, Cambridge University Press, page 47.

e.g.

1919; February 15-17: Proskurov (Podolsk province): Massacres, rapes, looting by armed units of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Estimated number of victims: around 1,500.

1919; March 22-26: Jitomir (Volhynia province): Massacres, rapes, looting by armed units of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Estimated number of victims: between 500 and 700.

...
massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=3

Talking about Ukrainian 'barbarians' who plundered towns and murdered civilians.
hubabuba - | 113
24 May 2011 #210
Its your fault really guys, you respond to him and give him attention.

I know:( but cant help myself

Let's see what You should have done according to the German officer "Alfred Jodl at the Nuremberg Trials said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions" - so I think You shuld have been active!!!

but sorry You were active - dropping propaganda leaflets on Germany and then "On 12 September, the Anglo French Supreme War Council gathered for the first time at Abbeville in France. It was decided that all offensive actions were to be halted immediately

"

Kindly either quote even a single post in which I support the post-war communist regime or admit that you were lying when you alleged that I support them.

Harry I mean Your govermnet not You

According to the 1920 treaty of Suwalki (which Poland signed), Vilnius was in Lithuania.

the treaty was only abiut Suwalszczyzna, Wilno was not mentioned, why do You lie?

Founded by Lithuanians for Polish people? I hope the rates were good for developers then

are You aware that Berlin was founded by the Poles?so according to Your logic it is Polish?in 1920 2% of inhabitants were Lithuanian, look at architecture, what does it represent?


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