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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


Harry
24 May 2011 #151
So which strategic points in Germany they reached?

Which exact points do you feel that they should have reached and how exactly should they have reached those points?

Beside bombing Denmark by mistake with those old rusty planes?

These are the same planes which Poles seem to think should have been used to bomb Germany back to the stone age in September 1939?

Seanus - what was the situation de jure ?

According to the 1920 treaty of Suwalki (which Poland signed), Vilnius was in Lithuania.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 May 2011 #152
I asked you to list the treaties which were broken by the party other than Poland. Interesting that you haven't done that. Other than the two treaties broken by genocidal maniacs, you seem unable to support your claim that all countries break treaties.

The hard learned lesson from polish neighbors - if you are stronger use it to the full. Lithuania should be crushed and occupied.
Treaties are only worth a paper they were written on !
Rights ? Who is talking about the rights - the winner is right.
Westerners just like talking a lot of BS but when it comes to deeds they act the same like all the ****** world!
Poles fault is that they (at last many) actually believe in that BS!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #153
Founded by Lithuanians for Polish people? I hope the rates were good for developers then ;0 ;)

Clearly the university founded by Polish people was wide open to Lithuanians as well.

So territory is governed by numbers and not who founded it or had original claim?

Be carefull with original claims, such an idea was used by Jews to steal Palestine from the Arabs after over 1800 years of absence.

Did Vilnius residents (Lithuanian) do nothing to make the city theirs?

Very little ceirtanly, everything from schools and military offices to hospitals was built by Poles and usually staffed with them as well, the polish contribution to the development of the region was enormous.

Germany, through the auspices of the EU, invests a huge amount in Polish cities. They also have historical claims to places like Gdańsk. Should it be restored to its former name of Danzig?

Again be carefull with historic claims, they're unequal in many cases and can lead to a massive injustice.

Assuming it was Lithuanian first, Poles then came later. Flooding or swamping to form a majority like Albanians did doesn't mean that the core right should change, does it

But there is a difference, not only did Poles ensure the survival of Lithuania but they were the reason why villages became towns and towns became cities, with their civilisation firmly 200 years behind Poles and a small population Lithuanians were never able to develop or achieve things that they did with the participation of the Poles.

The question needs to be rephrased, what part of lithunian heritage would still be there without Poles?

By de jure, I meant that it was formally Lithuania's. It was within their territorial boundaries.

It was not, in 1917 the borders were defined by nothing more than an armed landgrab and that was how Lithuania came to govern Vilinus.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #154
Lithuania should be crushed and occupied?? That's a Soviet mentality!! The winner is right? You advocate that force dictates rights??

As was in the spirit of sharing, stemming from the Commonwealth, Sok.

Yes but the Lithuanians had the largest country in Europe and invited Poles in through the Lublin Pact. I can't recall much of that happening in the ME, Sok.

But was it Poland's job to do that in foreign territory? Do you believe America should be rebuilding Afghanistan, Sok?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #155
Lithuania should be crushed and occupied?? That's a Soviet mentality!!

Try looking at it from the polish point of view, Lithuania grabs a city built and inhabited by Poles, it them opens its borders to the Soviets and finally opresses the local polish population.

Clearly Poland needed to respond.

The winner is right? You advocate that force dictates rights??

He simply says that in politics might is the only right as amoral as it is, unless there exist other mitigating factors strength always dictates the development of a situation and when your countrymen are heavily opressed by a weaker state the use of that strength is required.

Yes but the Lithuanians had the largest country in Europe and invited Poles in through the Lublin Pact. I can't recall much of that happening in the ME, Sok.

You completely misrepresented the situation, Lithuanians were jumping up and down with happiness that Poland even talked to them, they did not "invite" Poland they wanted and needed ties with Poland to survive both as people and political entity, they embraced polish wealth, culture and military power so the question still stands, how much of the lithuanian heritage is in fact polish?
Bzibzioh
24 May 2011 #156
yah, like rats leaving the sinking ship;).

That's hilarious coming from an Ukrainian living abroad and not intending to go back. Hypocritical much?

Which exact points do you feel that they should have reached and how exactly should they have reached those points?

Points that would matter. Swimming through the Channel and on foot if necessary. If they did it for France, why not for Poland?

These are the same planes which Poles seem to think should have been used to bomb Germany back to the stone age in September 1939?

Yep.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #157
Was Vilnius within Poland's territorial boundaries at that time?

So if America invaded Peru, that would be ok??

But you have free movement in the EU to go anytime, Sok. The Romans left an indelible imprint on British society but things change. If force is what you say it is then the Soviets used it to dismantle the Commonwealth.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #158
Was Vilnius within Poland's territorial boundaries at that time?

Again you did not respond to my question, is landgrab by force of arms acceptable?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #159
No so let's discuss it. Do you accept the boundaries of Scotland as they currently stand, Sok? So if America decided to invade, that would be alright and it would be a new American territory? If not, why not?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 May 2011 #160
So Lithuania didn't exist after 1791??? ;)

Nope !

Wasn't it the case that Lithuania was the largest country in Europe in the 1500's??

Theoretically, it is a complex situation, on this very forum I have posted trying to explain iot somewhat to peeps here - look for it - I have no time, my lady will kill me if I stick here longer.

As was in the spirit of sharing, stemming from the Commonwealth, Sok.

Exactly, it did not pass a test of survival. Look at the world - no changes !

You advocate that force dictates rights??

That is the reality of our damned civilization, if you want something you must be a force to be reckon with to get it!
That is the fact! Only you on the PF seems to understands which some of us were trying to explain here - Commonwealth, no offensive spirit, cultural influence - Harry doesn't get it !

Anyway is the past - never to become life again!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #161
No so let's discuss it

So you have tne answer, Vilinus came to the borders of Lithuania by an armed landgrab and got taken away the same way.

The questions you pose do not reflect the situation of Lithuania and Poland in the 20s so its pointless answering them.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #162
For example the university of Vilinus was founded by the polish king and staffed with polish scholars, churches, houses, schools... For a lithuanian city Vilinus is sure full of Poland.

Yes, and Breslau is German. Danzig & Stettin too. Probably Königshütte and Hindenburg, too. I've almost forgotten Oppeln.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #163
No so let's discuss it. Do you accept the boundaries of Scotland as they currently stand, Sok? So if America decided to invade, that would be alright and it would be a new American territory? If not, why not?

would majority of the population want an American government? where do you see the analogy?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #164
Yes, and Breslau is German. Danzig & Stettin too

Wrocław and Szczecin used to be German thats correct, the university in Vilinus was founded by Stefan Batory and staffed with polish scholars from Poznań and Kraków.

See? You're still an idiot but you learned something.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #165
I-S, that's just not true. It gained its independence in 1918. Sound familiar??

But it was the largest though :)

There had to be more compromise, I-S

I agree that Lithuania should acknowledge the Polish contribution as they voluntarily entered into the Commonwealth. However, do landgrabs serve a useful purpose??

Ok, Sok, then ask away. Wars change boundaries and perceived rights, fact!

Gumi, of course Scots wouldn't want that. So, America's actions would be valid in that case?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #166
I agree that Lithuania should acknowledge the Polish contribution as they voluntarily entered into the Commonwealth. However, do landgrabs serve a useful purpose??

The point is that Lithuania grabbed a city full of Poles by force and then shot/opressed/stole from them, that gave Poland every right to intervene via military means when diplomacy failed didnt it?
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #167
Antek_Stalich: Yes, and Breslau is German. Danzig & Stettin too
Wrocław and Szczecin used to be German thats correct, the university in Vilinus was founded by Stefan Batory and staffed with polish scholars from Poznań and Kraków.

See? You're still an idiot but you learned something.

I would not go so far as calling you an idiot, Sokrates.

You live in the past and spread hatred in the present. We live in 21st century, it is 66 years after WWII and 93 years after WWI.

Any practical points to make real, Sokrates? And give good reasons, O Wise ;-)
Harry
24 May 2011 #168
So you have tne answer, Vilinus came to the borders of Lithuania by an armed landgrab and got taken away the same way.

No, Vilnius came into the internationally recognised borders of Lithuania by way of an international treaty which was signed by Poland. Previous to that the city had been part of the Russian empire and then had been claimed by three countries but was not internationally recognised as belonging to any of those three.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #169
You live in the past and spread hatred in the present. We live in 21st century, it is 66 years after WWII and 93 years after WWI.
Any practical points to make real, Sokrates? And give good reasons, O Wise ;-)

Not really, Vilinus today is Lithuanian and should stay so, interwar period was something else entirely.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #170
Gumi, of course Scots wouldn't want that. So, America's actions would be valid in that case?

did mostly Polish population of "Litwa Środkowa" want to be part of Lithuania?? i think it is pretty simple logic
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #171
Sok, so you accept that territory changes hands? If it was really so Polish in character then why cede it by formal means? Serbia will not do that over Kosovo.

Gumi, was Vilnius within the territorial boundaries of Poland?
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #172
Gumi, was Vilnius within the territorial boundaries of Poland?

what boundaries - did any boundaries exist there in 1919 ?

and first of all Piłsudski intended to create a federation or confederation of countries including Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine - still the Lithuanians perceived Poland as its enemy (it claimed a lot of ethnically Polish lands on historic grounds not only litwa środkowa) - which if you look at the maps of the lands they claimed was kind of megalomaniac
z_darius 14 | 3,968
24 May 2011 #173
Which treaty between Britain and Czechoslovakia was broken when the Sudetenland was returned to Germany?

I asked you to list the treaties which were broken by the party other than Poland. Interesting that you haven't done that.

Interestingly, you are so very well versed in minor, local treaties, but chose to neglect the major ones. Or are you trying to convince us that The Treaty of Versailles was not broken by Britain and France?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #174
Well, Lithuania had its independence by then and there are 3 main tests for statehood. Definable boundaries being one of them.

Lesson learned, be careful who you help!
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #175
Should Lithuania presently have the right to govern Vilnius?

Yes, very much so.Lithuanians have been living there for almost 70 years, ancient history doesn't matter.

Germany, through the auspices of the EU, invests a huge amount in Polish cities. They also have historical claims to places like Gdańsk. Should it be restored to its former name of Danzig?

If you go by "who was there first should rule there forever" than Germany can have no claims over Gdańsk.

Listen, there was no Polish or Lithuanian state prior to 1918 and everything was reset at that time (otherwise you should argue that 1914 borders should remain unchanged). The dominating doctrine at the time was self-determination* and if the inhabitants of Vilnius wanted to be a part of Poland, then they should be and Lithuanian government was the occupant no matter how you slice it. Here's what happened in 1918-1920 period:

November 1918 - Belarus claims Vilnius and surroundings
December 1919 - Soviets conquer Vilnius
January 1919 - the local Poles try to fight Soviets back
April 1919 - Polish army's offensive is successful
June 1920 - Soviets launch an offensive, reconquer
15-20 August 1920 - Poland kicks Russians' butts
27th August 1920 - Soviets withdraw from Vilnius and hand it over to Lithuanians, effectively Lithuanians help Russians to shorten the front and give military support as Poland regains territories lost in June

September 1920 - Soviets lose yet another battle, Poland tries to negotiate with Lithuania to no success
October 1920 - in order to minimize to the bloodshed, Poland signs a treaty with Lithuania to keep their guard down, launches offensive the next day.

Really, Lithuania tried to f*ck Poland but lost at their own game. If Vilnius was Lithuanian, they shouldn't have entered the battlefield, simple as that. As they did enter the battlefield, they should have expected we would fight for it.

*didn't stop Britain from crushing Irish uprising in 1916.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #176
So you accept that the massacre of Poles was fine and just so that they could win back their city?? If it was Polish before then when did it legitimately become Lithuanian?

So you attacked an independent state in the form of Lithuania?
gumishu 11 | 5,632
24 May 2011 #177
yes - very much like Britain attacked Argentinians in the Falklands - didn't Argentina have some historic claims to the Falklands??? and what about the population of the Falklands

btw of what massacres do you make a mention?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
24 May 2011 #178
If it was Polish before then when did it legitimately become Lithuanian?

Who cares ?
Either we taking moral rights or right of the fist - in this case Poland had upper hand !
Legitimacy is just a way of muddling the issue if you are not in position to get what you want or you think that you can do it cheaper !
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #179
So you accept that the massacre of Poles was fine and just so that they could win back their city?? If it was Polish before then when did it legitimately become Lithuanian?

So you attacked an independent state in the form of Lithuania?

What massacre? It became legitimately Soviet after WW2, because Soviets won the damn war and they were dictating everything.
Harry
24 May 2011 #180
Or are you trying to convince us that The Treaty of Versailles was not broken by Britain and France?

I'm sorry, I was unaware that British and French units joined the joint Polish-Nazi force which invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938. Could you perhaps give details as to which units of which armies joined your joint venture with the Nazis? Or is this just another one of the lies you expect you won't get called on, like the time when you called an area of more than eight hundred square kilometres "a few hectares"?

So you attacked an independent state in the form of Lithuania?

The correct answer is, of course, 'yes' but it is one which you will hear from few Poles.

Either we taking moral rights or right of the fist - in this case Poland had upper hand!

So you're never going to whine again about your country getting bent-over and arse-raped for six years by the Nazis and then 45 years by the commies. Good to hear that.


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