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Alexander the Great - Macedonski. Poland connection?



Nick the Greek    
24 Jan 2014  #61

Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side, next door to each other...but if one John Smith decides to take on the Identity of the other John Smith, that would be called Identity theft - Welcome to the Name dispute between FYRoM and Greece, ongoing now for >2 decades!

Names can be adopted but not Identities - Identities are inherited...passed-on, onward transmitted, from one unique ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic generation to the next.
Macedonian Identity is deeply rooted in Hellenism - from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.


Crow 136 | 5,909    
24 Jan 2014  #62

Proto Slavic world is older then Hellenic cultural movement. So, its not right that today`s Greeks impose their will on Macedonian Slavs. Plus, Greece risk confrontation with other Slavs. Therefore, Greece risk confrontation with itself, considering that Greeks originates from Thracians (ie Sarmatians > ie Proto Slavs).
Nick the Greek    
24 Jan 2014  #63

FYRoM has E1b1b J2 Haemus-Native Identity...Slavicized, according to the latest studies in the fields of genetics.

FYRoM E1b1b - 21.50.........Greece E1b1b - 21.00
FYRoM J2 - 14.00.........Greece J2 - 23.00
FYRoM Total = 35.50%........Greece Total = 44.00%

Supposedly Slavic R1a Hg

FYRoM R1a - 13.50.........Greece R1a - 11.50
FYRoM I2a - 23.00.........Greece I2a - 9.50
FYRoM Total = 36.50%........Greece Total = 21.00%

Supposedly Cauasian Greco-Anatolian, Celtic Hg

FYRoM G2a - 4.00.........Greece G2a - 6.50
FYRoM R1b - 12.00.........Greece R1b - 15.50
FYRoM Total = 16%.........Greece Total = 22.00%

Supposedly Nordic, Celto-Germanic Hg

FYRoM I1 - 3.00..........Greece I1 - 3.50
FYRoM I2b - 1.50..........Greece I2b - 1.50
FYRoM Total = 4.50%.........Greece Total = 5.00%

Supposedly Caucasian Mesopotamian Semetic Hg

FYRoM J1 - 2.00..........Greece J1 - 3.00
FYRoM T - 1.50..........Greece T - 4.50
FYRoM Total = 3.50%.........Greece Total = 7.00%

Supposedly Mongol-Turkic, Ural-Finnic, Baltic Hg

FYRoM Q - 0.50..........Greece Q - 0.00
FYRoM N - 0.50..........Greece N - 0.00
FYRoM Total = 1.00..........Greece Total = 0.00%

FYRoM sits on ancient-Paeonian lands south of Skopje and ancient-Dardanian lands north from it! - Draw your own conclusions ?
Crow 136 | 5,909    
24 Jan 2014  #64

Draw your own conclusions ?

i am familiar with genetics, you know. Its clear that Greeks originates from Proto Slavs
jon357 67 | 12,739    
24 Jan 2014  #65

You can't base the name of a country on the DNA of its residents or who or what their ancestors were centuries ago. Or indeed the origin of the country's name.
Nick the Greek    
24 Jan 2014  #66

Names can be adopted but not Identities - Identities are inherited.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain - Centum-Greek speakers created it, Hellenic-peoples originated the name in the first place.

The Centum-Greek language and Hellenism defines Macedonians from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC...>3 Millenniums now!

Macedonian Identity is too deeply rooted in Hellenism. FYRoM cannot use this name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity when all of those Identity factors do not bode well with South-Slavs. FYRoM misjudged the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
24 Jan 2014  #67

Identities are inherited.

No they aren't. People's identities are much more complicated than just DNA.

You are right though that names can be adopted and Macedonia has adopted that name for their country.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #68

You are right though that names can be adopted and Macedonia has adopted that name for their country.

Why ?
Crow 136 | 5,909    
25 Jan 2014  #69

its obvious. Slavs are coming back to take what belongs to them. Greeks shouldn`t resist to it. Resistance is futile
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #70

So FYRoM is Slavic then! Some people there disagree.

E1b1b J2 Haplogroups are Native to the Haemus peninsula which suggests FYRoM must have gone through some sort of Slavicization process at some stage...probably 6th Century AD, onwards!
rock - | 460    
25 Jan 2014  #71

I visited Macedonia 2 years ago. I did not see any Greek there. Ethnic composition is % 64 Macedonians (slavs), % 25 Albanians, % 4 Turks, % 2,5 Roma, % 2 Serbs.

It was Hellenic in the past but today nothing left.

Slavs adopted the Greek origin word Macedonia for their country. Good for Greeks.

Greeks may say proto-macedonians were Greek. It is possibly true. But today's macedonians are mostly slavs.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #72

Why ?

Probably something to do with it being the name of the place they live.

It was Hellenic in the past but today nothing left.

Slavs adopted the Greek origin word Macedonia for their country. Good for Greeks.

Greeks may say proto-macedonians were Greek. It is possibly true. But today's macedonians are mostly slavs.

Spot on. Most people are happy when a name from their language is given new life.
Crow 136 | 5,909    
25 Jan 2014  #73

So FYRoM is Slavic then! Some people there disagree.

only those who dream of Greater Albania disagree.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #74

Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side, next door to each other but if one John Smith decides to paint his house the same as the other John Smiths house...claim his lineage and take on his Identity - What should John Smith do ?

In the context of the Name dispute between FYRoM and Greece - What should Greece do with FYRoM taking on Macedonian Identity, when Macedonian Identity is recognized as being too deeply rooted in Hellenism and FYRoM is recognized as a newly emergent South-Slavic country.

What to do ?

The Pragmatic approach would be for FYRoM to recognize that the Macedonian name belongs in the Greeks domain where it originated. It would also be pragmatic of FYRoM to acknowledge that Alexander the Great was the ancient-Greek King of Macedon. These two actions would free-up FYRoM from the endless discussions about the origins of the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Names can be adopted - So FYRoM adopted the Macedonian Name.

Identities are inherited - FYRoM cannot use the Identity of Macedonians when Macedonians were in Hellenic Trajectory and part of the ancient-Greek World.

FYRoM's Macedonian Identity has a starting point - a seperation which distances it from the Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic Identity of Macedonians when they were in Hellenic Trajectory and part of the ancient-Greek World...a seperation which cannot be bridged simply by rewriting the Western Worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #75

claim his lineage and take on his Identity

Who's doing that? The Republic of Macedonia don't pretend to be anything other than who they are. Greeks should feel proud that someone has chosen a name connected to their disfunctional society - perhaps if they were a bit more sure of their own identity there wouldn't be this issue. Not that it's an issue at all outside Greece..
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #76

historyofmacedonia.org/ - FYRoM Historical Propaganda Site Directed at Greeks, Greece and Hellenism.

The Historical element FYRoM introduced via wealthy Canadian, American, Australian Diasporas. FYRoM delegated foreign policy and National History Narrative to outside diaspora influences. In addition to this, FYRoM used genetic propaganda also...to portray the Greeks as having black African origins. Evidently, FYRoM is not a Hellenic friendly country - to the contrary, FYRoM is vehemently anti-Hellenic and proven to be so for >2 decades now!
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #77

History

Is by the by. Countries cannot rest on their laurels - we are judged by the present not the past. In the case of Greece, should it be defined by the age of Sophocles or its present state?

The present day is where we (and the Macedonians) live.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #78

The present day is where we (and the Macedonians) live.

There are Greeks today that continue to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors. Macedonian Identity is too deeply rooted in Hellenism - a cultural-linguistic continuum of >3 Millenniums.

The Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM should distinguish themselves Identity wise by adding prefix suffix in front of their adopted name!
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #79

There are Greeks today that continue to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors

They're free to do that.

Just as the Slavic people in Macedonia are free to name their country as they wish.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #80

the Slavic people in Macedonia are free to name their country as they wish.

Is it freedom - to rename ancient-Paeonia to 'Republic of Macedonia' ?

Is it freedom - to name a hybrid mixed Serbo-Bulgarian language to 'Macedonian-language' ?

Politics comes into play here - those actions were politically motivated actions, taken in 1944 and 1945 respectively!

Country-Names generate Nationality. Language-Names generate Ethnicity - Comrade Jozep Broz Tito knew that, when he created the Peoples Republic of Macedonia in 1945.

The peoples of FYRoM are free to chose any name they like for their newly established country but the rest of the World is also free to judge them on that choice!

FYRoM is not Macedonia geographically and the peoples their are Slavic - culturally and linguistically! Macedonians on the other hand, live in the same place, walking and talking Greek-style for >3 Millenniums...can FYRoM compete with that !

Evidently, FYRoM underestimated the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #81

Yes, it's freedom. They have the freedom to choose the name of their country.

I don't suppose they're bothered too much what outsiders think.
rock - | 460    
25 Jan 2014  #82

It is known that proto-bulgars were a Turkic tribe. Even ethimologically word bulgar is Turkish and means mature.

But they mixed with slavs, forgot their former language and slavizised.

Today, if I say a Bulgar, he is a Turk in fact, I am quite sure he will not accept it and even he will get angry.

This DNA researches is bs. It is a racial approach and do not have any effect on people.

The main factors for being a member of a nation is mother tonque and what he/she feels himself.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #83

Yes, it's freedom. They have the freedom to choose the name of their country.

Actually, the Macedonian name was imposed on the Varder province of South-Serbia in 1945...the Bulgarian-speaking peoples there did not have a choice in the matter. Language name was imposed also, there was no Macedonian-language in the Slavic-World before 1944.

When one becomes learned on on these things it becomes apparent that FYRoM does have the political right to name itself the way of the peoples chosing...however, Morals and Ethics come into play here! Why excercize the right in the first place, to name your country after an ancient and archaich, Greek-Hellenic, regional-tribal name - a name that is so deeply rooted in Hellenism the Hellenic-peoples want to keep it in the Greek domain.

When FYRoM fights to make the Macedonian Name their sovereign state-name, a name they would then use for Nationality, Language and Ethnicity - how should the Greeks react to that provocation.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #84

what he/she feels himself.

That's everything really.

Why excercize the right in the first place, to name your country after an ancient and archaich, Greek-Hellenic, regional-tribal name

Why not.

how should the Greeks react to that provocation.

Maybe not regard it as a provocation. Even think of it as a compliment. Does your society look inwards or outwards?
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #85

If the measure of ethnicity was calculated in feelings, then the ancient-Macedonians were fanatic about their Greekness. Macedonians today are just as fanatical about their Greekness...so feelings support the Greek argument more than the FYRoM one.

Greeks would be elated at having a neighbour country adopt a Greek-Hellenic name for sovereign state-name...and taking on Hellenic Themes for architecture and road naming conventions - the problem is...FYRoM does not recognize the Macedonian name being Hellenic, or derived from Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples. In-fact, FYRoM is vehemently anti-Hellenic. Hellenism there is a loaded word and Greeks become the enemy.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #86

the ancient-Macedonians were fanatic about their Greekness

That's neither here nor there - the modern Macedonians are the issue.

fanatical

One thing to be avoided.

Greeks would be elated at having a neighbour country adopt a Greek-Hellenic name for sovereign state-name..

So you should be. But don't expect them to change overnight. Once both of you are in the EU, barriers will break down anyway and antagonism over a name will just seem a bad dream.
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #87

the modern Macedonians are the issue.

Modern Macedonians are Greek...they live in Macedonia, Northern-Greece - Authentic Macedonia, the real one.

FYRoM is not Macedonia...it is Paeonia and then Dardania north from Skopje! The peoples there are not Macedonians in the Greek sense of that word, they are South-Slavs culturally and linguistically.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
25 Jan 2014  #88

.it is Paeonia and then Dardania

It was once. Now they have the name Macedonia. That's only a problem for a very small number of people.
Crow 136 | 5,909    
25 Jan 2014  #89

Interesting thread on Polishforums. More then anything it shows increasing Polish interest for the Southern Slavs (ie South of Sarmatia). Good, good
Nick the Greek    
25 Jan 2014  #90

Now they have the name Macedonia.

Describe them ?




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