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Alexander the Great - Macedonski. Poland connection?



bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #1

Hi everyone,
a few days ago I was talking with a good polish friend of mine and suddenly we started talking about history.And I was shocked from his opinion regarding Alexander the Great. I was saying about the greek Alexander, while he ( and everybody else ) just jumped out of their chairs saying: Aleksander Macedonski nie Grecki :O . I wanted to ask: what do you learn in school about Alexander ? He was greek or "macedonian" (basically is the same thing because Macedonia was and is a greek name ) ? I mean what do polish history books say regarding Alexander?


pgtx 30 | 3,173    
21 May 2013  #2

Macedonski
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #3

Really?? I wrote that, didn't I? :D. I'm curious to know if there is written anywhere in the history books that it's not about the modern country named Macedonia, but the greek kingdom of Macedonia.
Monitor 14 | 1,832    
21 May 2013  #4

from polish wikipedia:

"Aleksander III Macedoński (stgr. Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Τρίτος ὁ Μακεδών Aleksandros ho Tritos ho Makedon) zwany też Aleksandrem Wielkim (Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας Aleksandros ho Megas) i niezwyciężonym (άνίχητος); ur. 19-20 lipca 356 p.n.e"

So (stgr. Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Τρίτος ὁ Μακεδών Aleksandros ho Tritos ho Makedon), Aleksander III Macedoński is his other name. Perhaps the second one Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας is now more popular for some reasons, but in Poland 1st name is more popular.

People now shouldn't mistake Macedonia with the country Republic of Macedonia, which usurps heritage of Ancient Macedonia (although they speak different language and are Slavic people which came to that region after the time of Alexander the Great).

"that it's not about the modern country named Macedonia, but the greek kingdom of Macedonia." As little as I remember about teaching of that part of history, they were saying that he was Greek and not many children in Poland even know where Republic of Macedonia is, to mistake that the ancient Greek hero would come from other country than Greece.
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #5

not many children in Poland

Ok, so I'll tell you something else: the guys who started "rioting" about Alexander being Macedonian and not Greek have all at least a bachelor degree ( 2 of them in european studies ) :D :D that's why I'm wondering.
Monitor 14 | 1,832    
21 May 2013  #6

"the guys who started "rioting" about Alexander being Macedonian and not Greek have all at least a bachelor degree " - so he had more time to forget :D
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #7

so he had more time to forget

Who?
Alexander? :D
Monitor 14 | 1,832    
21 May 2013  #8

"the guys who started "rioting"" had more time to forget what they taught him in primary school and because of European Studies he has heard about the existence of Republic of Macedonia. Combined name Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Τρίτος ὁ Μακεδών with Republic of Macedonia and this is how mistake occurred. If he has read official history of Republic of Macedonia then he could even read from them that Alexander the Great came from Republic of Macedonia.

I think that's why Greeks are fighting with Macedonians about their country name. To stop such mistakes.

And actually who knows what they teach children now. It could change a lot since my time. You could go to an library and check yourself. Although EU is not influencing content of text books right now, Greece is EU country and FYROM not, so perhaps Greek version is still in our books :)
Foreigner4 12 | 1,778    
21 May 2013  #10

So if I understand this correctly, he was of Greek origin in a republic currently occupied by a people that don't originally come from the region of Macedon. He and the current people are both considered Macedonian but the term refers to two different groups of people. If not then please correct my understanding.
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #11

He was Macedonian, people who are living in FYROM today are: Serbs,Albanian,Bosnian,Turkish,Bulgarian. The language is a bulgarian dialect. So I guess you get the picture now.
Monitor 14 | 1,832    
21 May 2013  #12

look at wikipedia. Geographical region of Macedonia comprises northern part of Greece, Republic of Macedonia and western Bulgary. Alexander the Great was Greek in the way that he was speaking Greek. There was no country called Greece in hist time, but smaller "kingdoms", so you cannot say that he was Greek nationality (term invented much later). Centuries after his death Slavs came to the territory of geographical Macedonia. Later Byzantium (Greek part of Roman empire) ruled this land, then Turkish came and ruled, then during soviet times was Yugoslavia there. Finally after wars in Balkan people who live in Republic of Macedonia decided to create their nation. And they tough, aha, here was living here 2000 years ago famous Alexander the Great. Let's say that we are his descendents. Doesn't matter that out language is Bulgarian, that we are Slavs and that Macedonia is administrative district of northern Greece.

But you understand little wrong. Republic of Macedonia doesn't occupy it's territory. It belonged to Greece centuries ago. No need to change borders again. People living there could be living there since generation. Just when they immigrated, the place was under other rule.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
21 May 2013  #13

So if I understand this correctly, he was of Greek origin in a republic currently occupied by a people that don't originally come from the region of Macedon. He and the current people are both considered Macedonian but the term refers to two different groups of people. If not then please correct my understanding.

Yes and no. He was Greek. Greece was a group of kingdoms (Sparta, Athens etc) in his day. There was a Greek kingdom called Macedonia.

Fast forward into the future - to a time when there are political issues in the balkans. There is a province of modern Greece called Macedonia. There is also a very new state called Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (usually abbreviated to FYROM). The two countries are arguing over the name Macedonia. However Alexander the Great was Greek - nothing to do with the modern ex-Yugoslav state.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,778    
21 May 2013  #15

jon357

Now I got it. Thanks.
ender 5 | 401    
21 May 2013  #16

The time he was born Greeks treated Macedonian as Barbarian (and long after: 'the Greeks who were to run against him tried to exclude him, saying that the contest was not for Barbarians to contend in but for Greeks') ergo he is Macedonian
delphiandomine 82 | 15,963    
21 May 2013  #17

Fast forward into the future - to a time when there are political issues in the balkans. There is a province of modern Greece called Macedonia. There is also a very new state called Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (usually abbreviated to FYROM). The two countries are arguing over the name Macedonia.

Which is ridiculously childish on the part of Greece - the EU should have told Greece that if they wanted the bailout money, they had to drop their objection to the name of the country. The Greek attitude towards Macedonia has been nothing short of pathetic - and the Macedonians are having a field day creating an entire cult around Alexander!
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
21 May 2013  #18

The Greek attitude towards Macedonia has been nothing short of pathetic

Now think for a moment if there was a country called Republic of Malopolska,bordering Poland, pretending to have nothing to do with polish region in south of Poland. Take also some polish hero/king/prince and name the airport of this "country's" main airport,name also a few roads,put him on some banknotes, fill the children's history books with nothing close to the truth,invent a language ( which is basically just a dialect of another language ) and I guess you have it.

Now tell me if that sounds familiar, and if any state/country/nation in the world would agree with an identity theft?
P.S I'm not greek ;)
delphiandomine 82 | 15,963    
21 May 2013  #19

Now think for a moment if there was a country called Republic of Malopolska,bordering Poland, pretending to have nothing to do with polish region in south of Poland. Take also some polish hero/king/prince and name the airport of this "country's" main airport,name also a few roads,put him on some banknotes, fill the children's history books with nothing close to the truth,invent a language ( which is basically just a dialect of another language ) and I guess you have it.

The problem is that they didn't do any of this stuff in the beginning - it's very much a reaction to the behaviour of Greece towards them. The more that Greece acted like a spoilt child, the more that they built up the cult of Alexander which strengthened their sense of nationhood. Entirely normal.

Macedonian isn't a dialect of Bulgarian - in fact, that's the normal offensive thing used towards them. Some dialects may be similar to Bulgarian, but that's no different to how people in Cieszyn speak a similar dialect to those in Cesky Tesin.

Of course, the real reason for the Greek problem with Macedonia has everything to do with Greece and her support of Serbia...
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
22 May 2013  #20

Macedonian isn't a dialect of Bulgarian

Ok, so how can you explain me that when I was in Macedonia with a bulgarian friend of mine he was communicating with them like 2 poles communicate with each-other ( one from Gdansk and the other from Silesia ) and even he was shocked from the similarities?

the real reason for the Greek problem with Macedonia has everything to do with Greece and her support of Serbia

I don't think it has anything to do with it. Greece supported Serbia during the Bosnian war, and after the Kosovo war, and that was mostly because of the famous "Othodox brothers", but in Macedonia?? Macedonians are orthodox too ( at least that part that is called macedonian ).

Entirely normal

Ok, so if you consider that normal, I have nothing to add.
jon357 67 | 12,739    
22 May 2013  #21

Ok, so how can you explain me that when I was in Macedonia with a bulgarian friend of mine he was communicating with them like 2 poles communicate with each-other

Many languages are mutually intelligible without being a dialect of the other.
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
22 May 2013  #22

Oh, really? Search for the origin of the "macedonian" language.
Monitor 14 | 1,832    
22 May 2013  #23

"The problem is that they didn't do any of this stuff in the beginning - it's very much a reaction to the behaviour of Greece towards them. The more that Greece acted like a spoilt child, the more that they built up the cult of Alexander which strengthened their sense of nationhood. Entirely normal."

you have strange perception of normality

"Of course, the real reason for the Greek problem with Macedonia has everything to do with Greece and her support of Serbia..."

You are saying that Greeks argue about the name Macedonia because of Serbia? Why not because of Germany?

wikipedia: "The name of the Macedonian language is a matter of political controversy in Greece[10] as is its distinctiveness compared to Bulgarian in Bulgaria."

Quarrel weather it's dialect or not has no sense. Enough to say that it's nearly the same language. And weather it has different name or is called dialect it's only political matter.
delphiandomine 82 | 15,963    
22 May 2013  #24

you have strange perception of normality

It's entirely normal for a new country that found itself surrounded by hostile neighbours. Poland between the wars wasn't much different.

You are saying that Greeks argue about the name Macedonia because of Serbia? Why not because of Germany?

Originally, yes - Serbia reluctantly let Macedonia go (because there were barely any Serbs to agitate there, and no historical connection) - but still, the Greeks were very much on the side of Serbia at that time.

Quarrel weather it's dialect or not has no sense. Enough to say that it's nearly the same language. And weather it has different name or is called dialect it's only political matter.

It's irrelevant - Macedonian has been recognised as a language for many years. Who are you (or I, or anyone) to deny them the right to call their language what they want?

Then again, pathetic childishness is nothing new in the Balkans.
OP bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53    
22 May 2013  #25

Poland between the wars wasn't much different

Dude, Poland didn't call itself Magdeburg,Morava or anything else. And didn't name any airports after some German/Czech/Russian/Ukrainian king :D :D.

Then again, pathetic childishness is nothing new in the Balkans

Here I have to agree with you. Seriously.
delphiandomine 82 | 15,963    
22 May 2013  #26

Dude, Poland didn't call itself Magdeburg,Morava or anything else. And didn't name any airports after some German/Czech/Russian/Ukrainian king :D :D.

But they certainly built up a certain mythology that persists to this day. It wasn't an accident that the "Miracle of the Vistula" was called that, and Pilsudski certainly didn't do much to stop the cult forming around him.

Here I have to agree with you. Seriously.

Macedonia is really just a small piece of centuries of childish stupidity. Nothing is more stupid than the Serbian obsession with Kosovo Polje though.
Harry 78 | 13,533    
22 May 2013  #27

Then again, pathetic childishness is nothing new in the Balkans.

As long as they are just being pathetically childish and not actually murdering each other, some progress is being made.

And didn't name any airports after some German/Czech/Russian/Ukrainian king :D :D.

Although there are airports here named after a French composer and a German astronomer....
FlaglessPole 4 | 672    
22 May 2013  #28

Although there are airports here named after a French composer and a German astronomer....

who happened to be loyal and devoted to Poland.. and that's what matters, if anything they should be celebrated more.. as symbols unity, that we all are one, that nationalism, in its rather short history, has long served out its purpose.... not now I know, not in my life time, still too many tribalists drumming their little drums, beating their chests, and using their small cocks primarily to p!ss-mark territories... but hey
Ironside 43 | 8,225    
22 May 2013  #29

I don't get it. Who is talking rubbish?

Harry

Independence for Scotland has nothing to do with petty nationalism and everything to do with the reality - that Scotland is a different country in many aspects to England.

Ah! So nationalism in Scotland has nothing to do with petty nationalist.Whereas nationalism in Poland does. Say no more.

As for it being a fact - you're a great example, aren't you Ironside?

Example of what?

You do it frequently with anyone that doesn't agree with your political viewpoint.

Not frequently but that beside the point. I don't disrespect anybody else country or their myths in an off hand manner

What non-European background?

Talking about Harry.

lemme see: Danish films, tv series, arts, design, culinary arts (number of Michelin star restaurants), literature, satire, stand-up... visible and internationally renowned and appreciated.. now the Polish ones.. um.. kinda quiet here in this corner, not saying nothing is happening, but yeah DK: 1 PL: 0, sorry mate

Well, given the long years of freedom and independence not pestered much by wars and occupation the only thing with a really international appeal is a Danish pastry.Not bad at all.
FlaglessPole 4 | 672    
22 May 2013  #30

Well, given the long years of freedom and independence not pestered much by wars and occupation the only thing with a really international appeal is a Danish pastry.Not bad at all.

yes yes given this given that... Poland was given a lot in her time yet Poles chose to squander it thanks to their own shortsightedness, Russians and Germans taking advantage of the situation.. oh well, someone had to... and given now you(Iron) seem to be rather stale as regards current cultural references




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