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The Piast dynasty is of non-Slavic origin? Latest DNA findings suggest Germanic or Celtic



Ziemowit 8 | 2,636    
20 Apr 2017  #1

The skeleton of the last Mazovian prince Janusz III (1502 - 1526) was found to have the R1b haplogroup which is prevalent in Western Europe and reaching the 80% level in the male population of some areas, but only acounts for about 10% in the Slavic lands. Dr Tomasz Kozłowski of the Toruń University says more research is needed to say for sure if this oldest dynasty of Poland, people who were founders of the Polish state in 966, were of Germanic or Celtic origins.

The R1b haplogroup is often called Celtic or Atlantic wheras the R1a is referred to as Slavic. Since the preservation of the remnants was poor, it was not possible to point to a more specific variant of the R1b haplogroup in Janusz III, however. The findings do not support the theory of the Viking origin of the dynasty nor their import from the Great Moravia. In Scandinavia the predominant haplogroup is I2, often referred to as the "old-European" one.

The R1b haplogroup is characteristic for other royal houses of Europe such as the Wettins, the Hapsburgs, the Bourbons and the Stuarts.


delphiandomine 87 | 15,740    
20 Apr 2017  #2

Thank you for this Ziemowit, much appreciated.

if this oldest dynasty of Poland, people who were founders of the Polish state in 966, were of Germanic or Celtic origins.

Isn't there some speculated connection between Mieszko I and the Danes? I suppose it would makes sense if the Piasts were Germanic, as it would neatly tie in with other European royalty, and would explain how Mieszko was able to give a thorough beating to the other tribes wandering around at that time.
Lyzko 17 | 3,672    
20 Apr 2017  #3

Not all that surprising when one recalls that Rurik and the original Swedes were of one and the same ethnicity:-)
gregy741 3 | 981    
20 Apr 2017  #4

Chrobry and Mieszko had very close relations with vikings.there were hypothesis that they were of some vikings origin.
i think ,Chrobry took part in Norman invasion of Britain and his daughter was mother of English -Norman king Canute,or Cnut the great
there were some theories that all Chrobrys military sucesses were due to viking support.
Crow 137 | 5,906    
20 Apr 2017  #5

Be vigilant on possibility of manipulation with Slavic, Polish history. Germanics and Celts themselves were Slavs.
gregy741 3 | 981    
20 Apr 2017  #6

Be vigilant on possibility of manipulation with Slavic, Polish history

okey.i will keep an eye on that..hehe

Chrobry took part in Norman invasion of Britain and his daughter was mother of English -Norman king Canute,or Cnut the great

sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiatoslawa_av_Polen
Crow 137 | 5,906    
20 Apr 2017  #7

Essentially, what is White people today, that is of Slavic origin. Story about late arrival of Slavs in Europe is false, political distortion of history.
Ironside 46 | 8,403    
20 Apr 2017  #8

Really? How does it work? After so many dynastic marriages its rich suggesting some non local origin.

The R1b haplogroup is often called Celtic or Atlantic

Is that R1b1a or R1b1b?
By the way R1b had been found in the oldest remains (7000 years old) that belonged to a hunter of the Samara culture of the Volga River area. Generally speaking it is believed that haplogroup signifies Pontic Steppes origin.

Which tell us that is all theory and need to be a specialist to get into business of drawing far fetched conclusions.
OP Ziemowit 8 | 2,636    
21 Apr 2017  #9

Really, Ironside, your usual ranting often seems to be aimed at showing people on the PF what a smart ass you are. It arises from not reading posts carefully enough.

Is that R1b1a or R1b1b?

the preservation of the remnants was poor, it was not possible to point to a more specific variant of the R1b haplogroup in Janusz III

Another of your doubts:

and need to be a specialist to get into business of drawing far fetched conclusions.

Dr Tomasz Kozłowski of the Toruń University says more research is needed to say for sure if this oldest dynasty of Poland were of Germanic or Celtic origins.

No one is going to draw far-fetched conclusions just out of a single case.The remnants of Janusz III's brother Stanislas (both are buried together in the Warsaw cathedral) did not produce any DNA useful for determining the R haplogroup at all.The remnants of the former which revealed the R1b haplogroup were treated with extreme caution which meant the male members of the team were excluded from all the proceeding for fear of possible contamination.

There is a major research project under way now in Poland whose main aim is to determine if the population of the present-day Poland in the Roman period (1st to 2nd centuries AD) are the same or different from its population of the Middle Ages (10th to 11th centuries). Additionally, this project includes investigating the Piast dynasty over the centuries as well. Since the volume of samples of this research are to be considerably large (at least 100 people of each group), the results will shed more light on the question if there is a continuity between the populations of those two periods. In other words, we will know more if the Slavic people came and settled on the territory of the present-day Poland in the 6th century AD (the allochtonous theory) or if the same genetic population did live here back in the Roman times, too (the autochtonous theory). The first findings are expected to be published in 2018.
Ironside 46 | 8,403    
21 Apr 2017  #10

Really, Ironside, your usual ranting often seems

In your mind which cannot be regarded as much because you're usually focuses on people here and you're in habit of writing about them. First of all those are only posters with monikers. Second your little passion is not much different from the general ranting that goes on here.

I went right to the point and asked questions if you didn't notice. I didn't say anything about you dimwit. So what gives?

be aimed at showing people on the PF what a smart ass you are

I don't care what 'people' on PF think about me. I don't think about them beside the content of their posts or their erroneous views on issues.

It arises from not reading posts carefully enough.

I read them well enough. You made it murky so I have asked questions. My doubts arose not from what that specialist said because he and I are saying basically the same but from what you have written. Which I presume are your 'free' speculations. Those in turn gave a rise to misinterpretation and misunderstanding expressed in the posts above by other posters.

Yep, that info about ongoing research is interesting. Good.
Crow 137 | 5,906    
21 Apr 2017  #11

Really?

Really

How does it work? After so many dynastic marriages its rich suggesting some non local origin.

You can`t even imagine how close you are to understanding but, still you fails.

Listen. Ancient Slavic world was inter-continental. Spread wide, same as it is today, no matter reduced. From what is now Scotland and western Europe to the Ind River in India, all the way via Caucasus and Siberia, what is now Iran (Persia), etc. From Baltic and Northern Europe (Prussia), South-Eastern and Eastern Europe to what is now Spain, Anatolia, Near East, parts of Africa.

How understanding of local origin shifted?

See, all around bordering regions of their realm and on their seas, or even deep in its own inland, in big trade centers that attracted foreign traders (and intruding armies), our ancients had encounters with strangers. Barter, trade and conflicts were first reasons for contacts. To shorten this elaboration I would only say that those encounters resulted in formation of hybrid societies (as result of foreign economic, cultural and linguistic influence) on the fringes of realm of the ancients. In some cases those foreign influences were predominantly culturally based and in some cases in addition were followed by heavy interbreeding of population. For example, in examples such is Baltic, foreign influence was predominantly cultural, linguistic with additional mixing of ruling classes with foreign traders and even with foreign ruling classes. On the other side, on examples such were Troja, we must presume that ancients were in addition exposed to heavy mixing of their populous with foreign peoples and tribes. So, with time, once when you had established ruling class that had truly unique local economic interests, local hybrid culture and in some cases ruled over population that received cultural or even genetic foreign element, that local ruling elite tended to separate from rest of Slavic world, to increase investment in its unique position, in order to achieve even faster and bigger personal enrichment.

In that situation, crucial problem for the ancients was that those were exactly biggest trade (economic) centers that fall to the foreign influence. Practically, almost that one can say that urban centers betrayed rural population. Elite from the big city centers confronted rural elite. World of our ancients was torn apart. And it was already acute problem much before God even had plans for Egyptians, Greeks or Romans.

Imagine proportions of internal conflicts within realm of ancients. Antagonistic forces erupted. Back then there was no internet and people were not that well connected. What local ruler says, that was law. Sure, local rulers had to confront still dominant native Slavic culture. There was religious caste that tended to preserve unity of Slavs for its own interests.... no wonder that Romans (as documented) so passionately exterminated priests of ancients whenever they could. Romans who had interest to prevent big uprisings of population and arise of united respond against them. See, just imagine agony of ancients. Agony of those few who were truly aware of proportion of threat and tragedy.



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