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Miracle of the Vistula 80th anniversary?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 May 2010 #1
Anyone know how Poland is planning to celebrate the 90th anniversary of the rout of the Bolshevik hordes at the gates of Warsaw, popularly referred to as the Miracle of the Vistula? Britain's Lord d'Abernon (Foreign Secretary) called it the 18th most decisive battle in world history. The Bolshevik scum were just miles from East Prussia (Germany) where revolutionary ferment and turmoil were about to erupt. Where it not for the Poles' effectiv defeat of the red invaders, Marxist poison may well have engulfed all of Germany leading to the Sovietisation of Europe.

It was the 3rd time Poland had saved Europe: the first was the Battle of Legncia (13th century) agaisnt the Mongolian invaders, the second was King Sobieski's victory over the Turks in Vienna (1683), and the fourth was yet to come: 1980-1989 the peaceful overthrow of the Evil Empire.
z_darius 14 | 3,969
28 May 2010 #2
I'm not sure The Battle of Legnica would fall in the "saving of Europe" category by Poland.
First, the Mongols fought against Polish AND Germans.
Second, the battle was lost.
Third Mongols withdrew from Poland, and much of the surrounding territories on their own accord after the death of their "president". The withdrawal did not seem to have resulted from Polish, or other European military action.
Stu 12 | 522
28 May 2010 #3
1980-1989 the peaceful overthrow of the Evil Empire

And saying that the Poles "saved" Europe at that time is an exaggeration if I ever read one.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
28 May 2010 #4
Also Pilsudski first badly overreached himself with getting too deep in the Ukraine, and getting into alliance with Petliura, after which the Polish army was almost destroyed. And after the Vistula battle, with the Red Army (or rather what was left of it) retreating as fast as they could, he refused to make a pact with the Whites. They could have together destroyed the Red Army.
z_darius 14 | 3,969
28 May 2010 #5
And saying that the Poles "saved" Europe at that time is an exaggeration if I ever read one.

I agree.
You can't save an entity with suicidal tendencies, which is what EU has become.

the Polish army was almost destroyed.

There were millions of things that ALMOST happened.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 May 2010 #6
First, the Mongols fought against Polish AND Germans.

No they did not, there was a handfull of Teutonic Knights and thats a completely unchecked fact created 70 years after the battle.

Also Pilsudski first badly overreached himself with getting too deep in the Ukraine, and getting into alliance with Petliura,

You mean when he put miles and miles of terrain between Warsaw and the Red Army? Also was he supposed to fight Petlura as well? The alliance was a natural and only beneficial choice.

he refused to make a pact with the Whites.

Because Whites were an enemy of Poland just like the Reds.

They could have together destroyed the Red Army.

And then we would have to fight a newly empowered white army instead of the broken red army.
z_darius 14 | 3,969
28 May 2010 #7
No they did not, there was a handfull of Teutonic Knights and thats a completely unchecked fact created 70 years after the battle.

The Teutonic Knights were in addition to the Germans I mentioned:

Bitwa pod Legnicą - bitwa, która rozegrała się 9 kwietnia 1241 między rycerstwem niemiecko-polskim (głównie ze Śląska ale także z ziemi krakowskiej i z Wielkopolski) i wspierającymi go posiłkami (m.in. templariusze - kilkunastu rycerzy z pachołkami oraz być może Krzyżacy w liczbie kilkudziesięciu) a Mongołami (zwanych Thartari - "z piekła rodem")

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Legnic%C4%85
pgtx 29 | 3,159
28 May 2010 #8
80th anniversary?

90th anniversary

undecided? :)
z_darius 14 | 3,969
28 May 2010 #9
Sometimes things take some time before you start and finish up writing a post.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 May 2010 #10
The Polish leader Prince Henry the Pious was killed at the Battle of Legnica but the clash also overextenmded the supply lines and spent the forces of the invading Mongolisns and effectviely prevented their thrtust into the hearrt of Western Europe.

What's a decade in the face of human history? Seriously though, it was 90th. Blame it on the typo imps imbedded in my computer.

The Solidarity revolution led to the dismantling of the iron curtain, put an end to the cold-war nuclear threat that had plagued the Free World since the end of WW2 and brought about the collapse of the USSR, the whole Soviet bloc of captive nations, the Warsaw Pact and Comecon. Isn't that enough?

What's the point of trying to explain away any acheivements the Polish nation has contributed to mankind?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
28 May 2010 #11
The Solidarity revolution

It was part of the process. If there would not have been Gorbashov who allowed it to happen (and ordered the Red Army to stay in its barracks in 1989) it could have been completely otherwise. Do not think NATO would have lifted one finger to help you.
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #12
It was part of the process.

Very true.

If there would not have been Gorbashov who allowed it to happen

Not true at all - You are contradicting yourself cause Gorbachov was only to trigger the final scenario like Paul Tibbets (pilot who bombed Hiroshima) but there was a long political and economic process in Comecon behind his decisions (or rather forced moves).

And Poland's role was quite important.

It's German propaganda and German mass media attempt to hide away the total and shameful passiveness of the both German states - the former GDR and FRG - in the post-war fight against communism.

Actually it was rather a full scale support given to Soviet communism.

Gorbatchov's myth was created in order to support the Wall fairy tale ("Wir sind das Volk") and German history whitewashing.
Stu 12 | 522
29 May 2010 #13
Gorbatchov's myth

Simply not true. It was because of Gorby's abandonment of the Brezhnev doctrine in 1988, which paved the way for Eastern bloc nations to freely determine their internal affairs and which led to all these counter-revolutions in Eastern Europe throughout 1989, without the Soviet-Union interfering. That's why communism could be overthrown.

Of course there were already groups opposing communism (as there were and are groups opposing capitalism), but if it hadn't been for the abandonment of the Brezhnev doctrine, we would still have this wall running through the middle of Europe.

in the post-war fight against communism

What do you mean shameless passiveness? Remember it was the then DDR who suddenly had this wacky idea of building a wall on Aug 13th 1961. They WANTED to be seperated from the west. And what do you want the then BRD should have done at that time?

Please, don't overestimate Poland's role in all this.
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #14
Please, don't overestimate Poland's role in all this.

And where you see any overestimation ?
I just said "It was an important part of anti-communistic movement" like Czechoslovak or Hungarian revolutions were.
Weren't they ?

It was because of Gorby's abandonment of the Brezhnev doctrine in 1988

Chris, it's kindergarten level understanding of the communist society.
Doctrine meant nothing in Soviet communism - it was pragmatism pure.
Doctrines were for so called "useful idiots" in the West.
1jola 14 | 1,879
29 May 2010 #15
Look at the thread topic, think, and if you have something to say, post it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #16
Actually it was rather a full scale support given to Soviet communism.

ROFL :):):)

Yeah, that's why they needed to build a wall...whereas Poland didn't need a wall nor a big soviet army to keep people supporting their homegrown commies, they did it all obediently by themselves (inclusive helping actively to destroy the uprising in Prague)!

Borrka, repeating crap doesn't make it any more true....it stays crap!

Gorbatchov's myth was created in order to support the Wall fairy tale ("Wir sind das Volk") and German history whitewashing.

What whitewashing?

Does it annoy you so much that people around the world know about the Berlin wall and how he fell and that they connect Germans with the end of the cold war but have rarely heard about the Solidarity or any other Pole?

Well...to bad....that's life, not our fault that the media were all in place as it happened! *grin*
No german "propaganda" involved, it wasn't necessary...all the news stations from around the world gather in Berlin, we didn't do anything...honestly...:)
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #17
Don't try to show the East-German run-aways as a anti-communist fighters, BB.
Nothing heroic about them - economic calculation pure.
Later, after the Wall was constructed it took more guts than a Sunday morning walk to West Berlin but still absolutely no political motivation.
DM was what counted LOL.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #18
Don't try to show the East-German run-aways as a anti-communist fighters, BB.
Nothing heroic about them - economic calculation pure.

At least I don't try to put my people as brave resistance fighters against a foreign opression from Mars!

I'm far more honest and realistic as you...

DM was what counted LOL.

And Families and and the wish to live in freedom...
They just opened the official memorial for the many people murdered trying to cross this wall.

Pray tell..how many brave Poles died trying to flee your communist jail?
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #19
we didn't do anything...honestly...:)

Except spending millions on the worldwide known propaganda actions.

I'm far more honest and realistic as you...

What's not realistic about me ?
The truths you don't like ?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #20
Except spending millions on the worldwide known propaganda actions.

Some examples please?

What's not realistic about me ?
The truths you don't like ?

What truths? You vomit just bitterness and lies...you can't even give any proof for your OPINION.

Poles where as any other people trying to get on with their living in the eastern bloc, not more not less.
I would prefer to keep it at that.
But when you start to keep pissing on other fellow sufferer to somehow make your own people look better than I need to repeat the facts...
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #21
Some examples please?

The last Fall of the Wall anniversary was for free.
Yep, I know it.

But back to the main topic - the Vistula miracle.
Even then Germans position was truly disgusting LOL.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #22
The last Fall of the Wall anniversary was for free.
Yep, I know it.

And???

That's not us doing the writing:
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6528916/Berlin-Wall-anniversary-A-magical-night-that-changed-the-world.html

Berlin Wall anniversary: A magical night that changed the world

You can hardly accuse Germans for such articles..

heh:)

Even then Germans position was truly disgusting LOL.

See...and do we begrudge you your propaganda??? Noooo, of course not! Party away...:)
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #23
And???

Look BB.
Germany can afford these huge shows and it's very useful for German image.
Besonders for ex GDR-Germans LOL.
But it does not change the true history.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #24
Well...with "true" you surely mean history as a Pole sees it? But as we all know the rest of the world sees the same history often differently than you do, but don't let that disturb you...;)

There is this thread here on PF about a Polish historian who compared international history books with polish ones and couldn't believe that the world doesn't seem to know/to care how often the brave Poles wholly alone saved and/or liberated Europe/the world on their own...

A better example about a failed, illusionary self-assessment of a whole people you couldn't even think of! :)

You are a true Pole! :):):)
Stu 12 | 522
29 May 2010 #25
Chris

Who is Chris?

Well ... if you don't believe there was something like the Brezhnev-doctrine, fine by me. Stay in LaLa-Land and believe what you want to believe to stay a happy citizen.

It's funny you should mention '68, cause if I am not mistaken Poland took a very active part in destroying that movement. I don't want to say other countries don't have their national shame(s), but I guess this one should top the list in PL.

Again ... if you wanna live in your own LaLa-Land, no probs, but don't try to rewrite history. The Wall fell in Berlin, not in Poland. German government had nothing to do with it. East Germans had enough and first fled via Hungary and later the Wall came down. These are the facts, nothing more, nothing less.
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #26
the rest of the world

New to me.
Ex-GDR makes the rest of the world ?
Fascinating.

Who is Chris?
Typo.
"Christ" Jesus..
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #27
What do you think the World thinks about and sees everytime the news is about the end of the cold war and the fall of the iron curtain? Yup...alot of happy, partying eastern Germans...:)
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #28
What do you think the World thinks

"The world" used to believe the Earth is flat.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,790
29 May 2010 #29
And your catholic Church tried to burn those who said differently on stakes...

..and now we left the thread topic entirely, see you in random...*waves*
Borrka 37 | 594
29 May 2010 #30
These are the facts, nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry but your knowledge of history is under level one needs for discussion with me.
Bye.


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