The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 88

Lech Kaczynski - was he a good leader?


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
11 Feb 2012 #31
All you need to ask yourself is why he vetoed the appointment of professors, laws, etc. It was solely out of malice in many cases.

Please point out these cases.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
11 Feb 2012 #32
There are many cases, but the one I remember most vividly was his veto on public sector pension reform. Another 17 bills were vetoed - not normal behaviour for a President. What made it even more interesting was that he had only vetoed one bill during the previous Government - and a clear sign that he was using the office maliciously.

(and this is without mentioning his abuse of the Constitutional Tribunal as well, which he didn't do during the PiS government)

Let's not forget the fact that he was very, very pro CAP -which is nonsense for someone who claimed to be against the EU.
OP p3undone 8 | 1,132
11 Feb 2012 #33
I didn't realize this was such a loaded topic.I guess political discussion is volatile everywhere.This was not my intention.I don't get riled up .

when it comes to politics.My willingness to learn sometimes exceeds my common sense.I apologize to the forum for this.
ukpolska
12 Feb 2012 #34
No need to apologise as it is par for the course around here, but from this you can gather that LK was a very controversial figure admired by some for his stance on traditional values but despised by others for his inability to adapt to changes and the two views will never be changed.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
12 Feb 2012 #35
The coalition with Giertych and Lepper was an alliance of necessity, not choice. PiS's win did not assure a majority government and a minority government was extremely difficult and involved begging for support in parliament before every crucial vote. Merkel also entered a coalition with the lefties all true Christian democrats despise, because she had no other way out. That is how politics works.

BTW, do you deny or are unable to discern the violent hate campaign waged against LK and PiS by the forces I have mentioned?
ukpolska
12 Feb 2012 #36
The coaliton with Giertych and Lepper was an alliance of necessity, not choice.

Errr yes, but they still chose that alliance didn't they, that means they did have a choice. Paint it any colour you wish but it was their choice.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
12 Feb 2012 #37
Wrong. They could have entered coalition with PO instead - but Kaczynski's maniacal desire for control prevented that. If you look back, everyone expected a PO-PiS coalition - but PiS demanded control of all the "security" ministries - which was understandably a deal breaker.

It was the one thing that single-handedly destroyed PiS - the utter shame that was Deputy Prime Minister Lepper alienated most of the centrist voters.

PiS's win did not assure a majority government and a minority government was extremely difficult and involved begging for support in parliament before every crucial vote

Minority governments can be very successful if the Government pursues a policy of ruling by consensus. The Scottish Government 2007-2011 was an excellent example of this.

Marcinkiewicz was also fairly popular - if you speak to many PO supporters, they'll tell you that he wasn't a bad guy. But obviously - he started to pursue his own path contrary to the wishes of the Dear Leader, and so he had to go.

Merkel also entered a coalition with the lefties all true Chrsitian democrats despise, because she had no other way out. That is how politics works.

Merkel could easily have gone for new elections, too. But the Grand Coalition was on offer, and represented the will of the German people at the time. As for "despising" - what rubbish. The CDU and SPD are centre-right and centre-left respectively - there was enough common ground to reach agreement.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
12 Feb 2012 #38
Au contraire, although PiS won it offeredean equal number of minsitreis to PO. It was PO that sabotaged attempts at a coalition. One would havemmerged if PO had won, but PO had to be top dog and were in a state of shock. They even demanded that colaaton talks should be held on camera, which is unheard of and ridiculous, because its hamstrings true negotiations, but PiS went along and still PO refused to form a coalition.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
12 Feb 2012 #39
It wasn't the amount of ministries, but rather control over the security-related ministries. If you remember back what happened in the Contract Sejm, there is a very good reason not to let one party control all the ministries relating to security and power. As for PO sabotaging attempts - well, that was their price. They were only around 20 seats behind PiS - and could demand a high price for agreeing to the coalition.

Tusk must have been laughing his head off when PiS went into coalition with those two fools - all he had to do was sit back and wait.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #40
They were only around 20 seats behind PiS - and could demand a high price for agreeing to the coalition.

PO is presumably a liberal party (it's just a party of money and power and not liberal actually) - they claimed they had recipees for Polish economy - and they were offered economy ministries - but they insisted on the power ministries (a liberal party I repeat) - the thing is to those who backed up PO (including funding) PiS was a deadly threat - if you read more you will learn that Jan Rokita (whose ambition was to become the minister of Interior) was willing to forge the coaltion nevertheless (abandoning his personal ambitions) and it was Tusk and Komorowski who wanted to sabotage it and demanded things that PiS could not accept

Tusk must have been laughing his head off when PiS went into coalition with those two fools - all he had to do was sit back and wait.

he wasn't laughing - they all had to make the utmost efforts to put a bad name or ridicule the rule in the eyes of the nation (they all meaning PO with the aid of the most media - not backing up from outward lie, manipulation, scare mongering with little base in reality etc etc) - btw the presumed liberal PO voted along presumably 'populist' LPR and Samoobrona for the higher and more ubiquitously applicable 'becikowe' (newborn child money) against the best advises from finance ministry that it was irresponsible (it was January 2006 before the formal coalition between PiS, LPR and Samoobrona has been agreed)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
12 Feb 2012 #41
PO is presumably a liberal party (it's just a party of money and power and not liberal actually) - they claimed they had recipees for Polish economy - and they were offered economy ministries - but they insisted on the power ministries (a liberal party I repeat)

But - if you were in Tusk's shoes, would you really let the "other" party control the power ministries without restraint? Tusk would have known fine well what happened in the Contract Sejm, with the institutions still being used against Solidarity after the election. I wouldn't trust Jaroslaw Kaczynski with unlimited power, would you?

the thing is to those who backed up PO (including funding) PiS was a deadly threat - if you read more you will learn that Jan Rokita (whose ambition was to become the minister of Interior) was willing to forge the coaltion nevertheless (abandoning his personal ambitions) and it was Tusk and Komorowski who wanted to sabotage it and demanded things that PiS could not accept

That's politics for you. But they did have a lot of power over PiS - PiS needed them for a viable majority, and yet Tusk pushed them into doing the worst thing possible - coalition with LPR/Samobroona. The electoral mathematics was exceptionally interesting in 2005 - and Kaczynski made a mess of it.

he wasn't laughing - they all had to make the utmost efforts to put a bad name or ridicule the rule in the eyes of the nation

Well, that's generally what an opposition party does. PiS has been trying since 2007 to do the same thing.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,368
12 Feb 2012 #42
not mentioning that you can't really name a single instance of what you insinuate

You have a short memory, have you forgotten that he pardoned his son in law's crooked business partner.

and what about the minister for sport Lipinski or Lipski?
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #43
as far as I know minister Tomasz Lipiec was arrested in the wake of an CBA investigation into corruption around the National Centre for Sport - as you probably know CBA was formed by PiS-led government - so can you really say Lech Kaczyński did nothing to stop corruption among his own? - by the way nomination of Tomasz Lipiec was an example of PiS opening to wider public - AFAIK Lipiec was never a member of PiS, he was however a leader of NGO sport initiatives (being a former sportsman)

I wouldn't trust Jaroslaw Kaczynski with unlimited power, would you?

yes I would - because AFAIK Kaczyński never targeted people who were not into sucking the state and the population for their personal gain - if Tusk was into the good of the nation and not for the power for himself thanks to the support of various circles he would have nothing to fear joining such a coaltion

You have a short memory, have you forgotten that he pardoned his son in law's crooked business partner.

yes - it's unfortunately true - Kaczyński was not spotless ( I clearly said he wasn't perfect) - but this case is the worst thing he can be attributed and AFAIK it was a single event - you sometimes choose to help your children in the ways that are not really socially agreeable only to regret it later (often after some pressure from the said offspring)
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #44
When a party have anti-corruption policies as one of (if not the) main points in their election manifesto, spotless is the one thing they should be. PiS were far from spotless. LK's words on assuming the mayorality in Warsaw (''now it's our ******* turn'') told people what they were really about. At least the Kaczynski gang were thrown out of government at the earliest opportunity.
OP p3undone 8 | 1,132
12 Feb 2012 #45
Did he manage to pull off an air of commonality with the average Pole?
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #46
I only heard Poles, average or not, speak negatively of the twins. Being caught on camera insulting a homeless man ("spieprzaj dziadu") didn't endear him to anyone.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
12 Feb 2012 #47
That was very instructive. It showed him up as the elitist thug he was.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #48
Being caught on camera insulting a homeless man ("spieprzaj dziadu") didn't endear him to anyone.

the guy was not a homeless guy - he was some argumentative type who had some trouble with Kaczyński (with no little clue about politics just a personal dislike) -

youtube.com/watch?v=3FMp9Ec3pcY
- and deeds speak more than words - if you look at what PO (or for that matter most political parties in Poland) is doing you won't think they are better than Kaczyńscy

I only heard Poles, average or not, speak negatively of the twins.

you only heard those Poles who can't really think for themselves and swallow all propaganda they are fed by the media, OK? - how come PiS have 20 per cent iron electorate?
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #49
you won't think they are better than Kaczyńscy

The voters of Poland certainly think they are better.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #50
and it proves what exactly?
if you didn't know not so long ago most people believed earth was flat? I can show you one simple experiment about most people are in position to judge things and how are they able to use their minds -

youtube.com/watch?v=VjKN4dy3kGY
(there is a small innocent manipulation in the show - all those girls have fallen for the manipulation except these who admitted to be ignorant - this happens when you don't consciously use your mind and observation) - if you think they are misogynes they have made also this

youtube.com/watch?v=fF7-KF9jD_E
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #51
if you didn't know not so long ago most people believed earth was flat?

Fortunately today's Polish voters are better informed. I suspect if the PiSuarzy were still in office you wouldn't have made that comment.

manipulation

I don't think anyone sane would seriously suggest Polish voters are somehow manipulated.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #52
hehehe - oh Lord, you are a happy camper in Auschwitz then :)

again - see the film (or let me know if you can't understand it - I understand that spoken Polish can be much more difficult to get than the written version):

youtube.com/watch?v=VjKN4dy3kGY
- it shows how much in touch with realities of this world many people are and how easily manipulated they can be - your views on the film???
OP p3undone 8 | 1,132
12 Feb 2012 #53
It seems to me he was uncompromising and based on what came out of his mouth,not exactly altruistic.I bet he would have fit right in

with a Communist regime.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #54
actually pal, communist top apparatchiks hardly ever mingled with the population, so your remarks are just a fig of your rampant imagination
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #55
Auschwitz

Odd and paranoid.

let me know if you can't understand it

No problem - I'm fully proficient. Evidently you think Polish voters are being somehow manipulated when they vote for the party you don't like, but miraculously cast off their blinkers when they vote for the one you do like. Now that is funny!

.I bet he would have fit right in
with a Communist regime.

He fitted in very well indeed - the twins (to expand on what Lech Wałęsa said) have led a life in the shadows; of fitting in and working the system
Ironside 53 | 12,410
12 Feb 2012 #56
They're the best chance of getting unbiased opinions.

yeah, taking chances, an educated guess, they are not very good at this anyway.

the President would be so petty as to use the veto as a weapon against political opponents.

That is your opinion not a fact.

Say what you want, but the professionals at the IPN have cleared him of what he's accused of by the usual suspects.

Did they ? so what ?It doesn't change facts.

don't know

Come on Mr knowledge doesn't know? Never heard about the influence of TV on general population?

What lies and manipulations? Are you claiming that he didn't have TV Trwam, Radio Maryja and Gazeta Polska 100% behind him, as well as countless hysterical right-wing websites?

You couldn't resist to show off could you ?
Those lies and manipulations.
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #57
You couldn't resist to show off could you ?

Because as you have just acknowledged, he is right.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #58
Evidently you think Polish voters are being somehow manipulated when they vote for the party you don't like, but miraculously cast off their blinkers when they vote for the one you do like. Now that is funny!

now - it just shows that some (plenty of) people are hardly reliable in judgement on what is real - and it is also to say that some people may sometimes be right when masses around them are wrong (like in case of flat Earth) - is it that difficult to fathom - maybe in this case I am right and they are wrong - why can't I be sometimes right when contradicting the majority John, can you explain that to me?
JonnyM 11 | 2,615
12 Feb 2012 #59
it is also to say that some people may sometimes be right when masses around them are wrong

Aside from that statement being very close to the classical definition of fascism it begs the following question - perhaps the masses that were seduced to vote for the PiSuarzy and Kaczynski as president were very, very wrong? In the case of the PiS administration, it's refreshing to see that people quickly came to their senses.

why can't I be sometimes right when contradicting the majority John, can you explain that to me?

Easily. You can indeed 'be sometimes right' however evidently not very often and certainly not today. In this case you are very wrong. The Kaczynski Twins' regime was a disgrace. It produced no lasting benefit, brought international ridicule on Poland (see posts by various people above), left a bitter taste in people's mouths and several years on, despite constant media whoring by the PiSuarzy shows no sign of being allowed back.

It seems I have a more positive view of Poles than you do - at least as far as believing they've made the right choice of government in the last two elections.
gumishu 13 | 6,136
12 Feb 2012 #60
he Kaczynski Twins' regime was a disgrace. It produced no lasting benefit,

let's bring things to absurd, OK - how much of a lasting benefit would your personal rule leave if you were in power for 2 weeks?

It seems I have a more positive view of Poles than you do

again see the film - you don't have to be judgemental or be disfavourable opinion stating that a lot of people use concepts that are fed to them as their own and not use their own thinking or how easy it is to make them draw some conclusions by providing some false input, how they don't rely on their own understanding and their own observation even - this does not have to be disfavourable in the slightest - these girsl were wrong - they were purposely led to wrong conclusions - this is a fact and not a judgement

if you don't know calculus you don't know it - it doesn't mean you are worse than some other people


Home / History / Lech Kaczynski - was he a good leader?