The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 45

Kosciuszko Squadron - why don't they bring it back?


ArturSzastak
9 Feb 2007 #1
why don't they bring back the Kosciuszko Squadron? It was way too important for way too long to just be disbanned and then not started again.

if anyone has a voice in the air force over in Poland, please, i beg you....ask them to create a new Kosciuszko Squadron to contnue the spirit of the legendary heroes of the Polish/Soviet War, and WW2-

Merian C. Cooper, Cedric Fauntleroy (the Americans who started it), Witold Urbanowicz, Jan Zumbach, Zdzislaw Krasnodebski, Miroslaw Feric, and Witold Lokuciewski (the 5 pilots who made it legendary)

its an important part of Polish history, and an inspirational story for young people with military dreams. Please, if you or someone you know can bring this up in the Polish air force, ask teh officers and commanders to do it. They just might bring back an important part of Poland.

also, do they talk about them in Polish schools?
ArturSzastak 3 | 593
16 Feb 2007 #2
please tell me you've heard of them?!!
Ranj 21 | 948
16 Feb 2007 #3
I've not heard of them....What exactly does this group "do" or "represent" besides being a part of a military unit?
ArturSzastak 3 | 593
16 Feb 2007 #4
well, do you know of Pilsudski and Koscuiszko- the Polish generals who helped Washington's Army at Valley Forge, PA during the US revolution? well those 2 generals basically saved, along with a German and the French, the American cause. A man by the surname of Cooper fought with both men and told stories of it to his son, and his grandson.

This brings us to Merian C. Cooper. He was fascinated by the stories and believed America owed a debt to Poland. So after WW1, during the Polish/Soviet War, he met up with a few other US pilots and went to Poland to reapy this debt. There, he met up with the Americans who joined, most notable was Cedric Fauntleroy. He had also heard stories of the original two Poles and they named their American Squadron the "Kosciuszko Squadron" of the 111st Escadrille in teh Polish Airforce. They sweeped the Cossack and Tartar hosremen and helped save teh Polish army many times. After the war Poland put up statues of them and thanked them for their help, they were the biggest heroes of the time.

Then Jan Zumbach, Witold Urbanowicz, Witold Lokucziewski, and Miroslaw Feric were put under the command of Zdzislaw Kransodebski and formed the new "Koscuiszko Squadron". All these men were the modern Husiars of their time. They were fascinated with flying and were considered Poland's best pilots. The graduated flight school at Deblin, where they also learned how to be gentleman and how to attend proper balls and dances.

When the Nazis attacked the Polish Airforce had inferior planes and quickly fled to Romania, later to France, and then Great Britain. They were forced to only train while British pilots were dying fast and fresh recruits were put into planes after only a weeks training. Soon enough they finally used Polish pilots and quickly learned, that the 8,000 Polish airmen they had in GB at the time were going to save England. They became "the glamour boys of england" and were heroes. Movies and books were made about them during the war. They became Polish 303 squadron, but still reffered to themselves as the "Kosciuszko Squadron". They have more kills recorded in a single battle than any other RAF contingent in RAF history.

I wish i could tell you the whole story but you should really read the book, i do it no justice. it was written by two British authors and it will give you a whole new respect for Poland.

Its called "A Question of Honor" it is one of the greatest books you will read. Also "The Forgotten Few" is another good one, that deals with all eastern pilots-Poles, Czechs, etc.

questionofhonor.com/ - here's the website, you can by the english version or the Polish. I am pretty sure they plan on making this into a movie, but I am not positive.

I hope you read it.

-Artur
Huegel 1 | 296
16 Feb 2007 #5
repeat please... :)

Sorry, just a BoB reference. :) I've always been mightily impressed by the Poles, in general and specifically with relation to the BoB. The movie I keep banging on about Dark Blue World shows the Czech involvement with the RAF but I do agree that the Polish contribution needs to be covered a bit more in depth.

I'll look into getting that book. Hope there is a German translation floating around, as I doubt I'll find the English version here.

I also do hope that you're right about the movie. If done properly, it could be fantastic.

Thanks for the links too. Interesting stuff.

Anyway, stop all that polish...chit chat and steer 3-1-0 :)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
17 Feb 2007 #6
23th AFB and 1st squadron continue traditions of 7th squadron from Polish-Bolshevik war and 303 squadron from WW2.

23blot.pl/historia.html

1elt.minskmaz.pl/historia/poczatki/index.html
ArturSzastak 3 | 593
20 Feb 2007 #7
23th AFB and 1st squadron continue traditions of 7th squadron from Polish-Bolshevik war and 303 squadron from WW2.

do they still call themselves the Kosciuszko squadron, or do they just honor them and what not? sorry, i can speak Polish just fine, but have a hard time reading and writing because of living in the US.
Lukasz 49 | 1,749
7 Oct 2007 #8
Merged: A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of WWII

erwrrgh

Poles during WWII, writen by Americans : Lynne Olson (Author), Stanley Cloud (Author)

"Poles will read this book with a melancholy mixture of pride and anger, Britons and Americans with an uneasy combination of admiration for the Poles and shame at their own nations' conduct"

more detials (on the bottom of this web page there are opinions about this book) :

amazon.com/Question-Honor-Kosciuszko-Squadron-Forgotten/dp/ 037572625X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5403152-5550827?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=119 1781461&sr=8-1
isthatu 3 | 1,164
7 Oct 2007 #9
Its called "For your Freedom and ours" in the UK editions lukasz,and a cracking good read it is too. A great introduction to Polish mid 20th C history as it deals with far more than just the PAF.

oh,and I dont think shame for our nations conduct comes from it at all lukasz. Embaresment at the way some of our Politicians treeted Poland maybe but hardly shame for those who faught alongside Poles.
Lukasz 49 | 1,749
7 Oct 2007 #10
it wasnt mine worlds thats why I used " "
ajgraham - | 121
7 Oct 2007 #11
The book is an excuse for your Country being Hammered by the Germans in a few weeks!....So lets go and steal someone elses victory!!.......Now go away and leave the rest of us alone!
ajgraham - | 121
7 Oct 2007 #13
Ok Greg....I'm glad the Poles seem to like Blackadder (ww1) as much as us Brits.....They might look like idiots... .but they played a very big part in ending that war aswell!!......Not like poor old Poland.....Flat out on its back as usual!!
debbieeastland - | 19
7 Oct 2007 #14
The book is an excuse for your Country being Hammered by the Germans in a few weeks!....So lets go and steal someone else's victory!!.......Now go away and leave the rest of us alone!

ouch ouch ouch slap slap slap did you feel that? i hope you did grrrrrrrrr lol.
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544
8 Oct 2007 #15
Ok Greg....I'm glad the Poles seem to like Blackadder (ww1) as much as us Brits.....They might look like idiots... .but they played a very big part in ending that war as well!!......Not like poor old Poland.....Flat out on its back as usual!!

Easy there aj, take a deep breath and count to 10. :)

-edit-
Oh, before I forget, this book wasn't written by Poles.
isthatu 3 | 1,164
8 Oct 2007 #16
The book is an excuse for your Country being Hammered by the Germans in a few weeks!....

eh,wtf? have you read it?(btw,they held out as long as the combined might of the BEF,French/belgium and Dutch armies in the west)

!....So lets go and steal someone else's victory!!

again,wtf? My Grandfather flew Hurricanes in the RAF during the Battle of Britain and even he would gladly tell you that the Polish Squadrons accounted for the highest tally against the Hun,shmuck.

Ok Greg....I'm glad the Poles seem to like Blackadder (ww1) as much as us Brits.....They might look like idiots... .but they played a very big part in ending that war as well!!......Not like poor old Poland.....Flat out on its back as usual!!

Did no one ever point out that Poland was only an independent country AFTER WW1,so to say flat on its back during the war is ill educated and plain wrong(btw,Poles fought on every side in ww1,look it up,you may be interested....)
lesser 4 | 1,311
30 Oct 2007 #17
I have read the book and I liked very much. Nice history plus authors provide many details about shadows of politics.

Of course if Germany would invade UK in first place and US and Soviet Union stay aside, British army would be crushed.
stepheng - | 49
30 Oct 2007 #18
again,wtf? My Grandfather flew Hurricanes in the RAF during the Battle of Britain and even he would gladly tell you that the Polish Squadrons accounted for the highest tally against the Hun,shmuck.

This is true. In the early days of the Battle of Britain the RAF was on the defensive heavily as the Luftwaffe was bombing the air bases. They would have won if Hitler hadn't have changed his mind and started focusing on attacking London instead of keeping up the attacks on the RAF's bases...

Britain had plenty of planes which were easy to replace but too few pilots so they sent too many men up there who were really untrained and inexperienced. The Polish pilots were generally better trained and had experience as they had been fighting the Germans already before they joined the RAF's efforts.

At the end of the day Britain joined the war because of Poland and the tragedy was the aftermath of that conflict.
Daniel U
14 Nov 2007 #19
Hi all

For an excellent discussion of the Polish contribution to the B of B (including actual data on kill ratios) please read "The Forgotten Few" by Adam Zamoyski.

For the doubters, there is a quote on the front or back cover by Mallory or Dowding which paraphrased says "but for the contribution of the Polish airmen I hesitate to think the outcome would have been the same" - I think that speaks for itself really.
eric_the_nave - | 30
15 Nov 2007 #20
"Poles will read this book with a melancholy mixture of pride and anger, Britons and Americans with an uneasy combination of admiration for the Poles and shame at their own nations' conduct"

And the occasional Aussie will enjoy it partly because it has a go at Americans and British.......

On a serious note I picked this book up a couple of years ago on a visit to Krakow. As someone who knew precious little about Polish history it was an awesome book, easy to read (I finished it in two days - normally takes me more than a month to read a book) and very informative. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Also it encouraged me to read more about Poland's history afterwards.
celinski 31 | 1,258
17 Nov 2007 #21
Another great video is, "A forgotten Odyssey" by Jagna Wright or "The other story" . Jagna passed away this year and she will be missed. I thank you for the link.

Anders Army tells of the strength of the Polish fighter. Half starved men given amnesty from Russia, some just barley alive in 1942 set up a fighting team like no other on Russia soil. With no weapons they had to use self made wooden guns to practice drills. They went on to fight and win many battles. What we must remember is how many Polish fighters were killed (unarmed and tricked) in "Katyn" and eastern Poland, (unarmed reserve front line) farmers 1940. Then once more 1943 in eastern Poland, SS,Ukraine , savagely



killing unarmed farmers.
El Gato 4 | 351
1 Dec 2007 #23
This book is my favorite ever. I loved every minute of it and I think it should definitely be made into a movie. Hopefully someone with some cash can do a cinematic debut some justice. I'm just praying someone like Spielberg or Clint Eastwood reads this book some time soon.
isthatu 3 | 1,164
2 Dec 2007 #24
I'm just praying someone like Spielberg or Clint Eastwood reads this book some time soon.

What,so every charector can be american,and everyone flies P51s coz they look better.....lord save us from another of Speilbergs attempts at a history lesson,please.

Mind you,Clint,now he's a director.
Kent 4 | 6
15 Apr 2008 #25
Merged: Kosciuszko Squadron emblem

I am looking for a picture of a WWII Spitfire with the KoŇõciuzko Squadron emblem painted on it. OR...was it just used on Hurricanes?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Kent
Piorun - | 658
15 Apr 2008 #26
The dog "Misia", mascot of the 303 squadron, sitting on a Spitfire.

Flt Lt Jan Zumbach (303 'Polish' Sqn) with his Mk V
Cdr Stefan Witorzenc (OC 1st Polish Fighter Wing)


isthatu2 4 | 2,708
15 Apr 2008 #27
Yep,kept on all the sqdrns aeroplanes,from the origional Polish /soviet war era emblem. Have you the book, For your Freedom and ours,? Its a cracking read Kent,in paperback from smiths or any good book shop.
Kent 4 | 6
16 Apr 2008 #28
Isthatu2,
Thanks for the pictures and links...some great stuff. It's exactly what I was looking for.

I also ordered the book For Your Freedom and Ours.

Thanks again,

Kent
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
16 Apr 2008 #29
Kent,isnt me to thank for the great pics and links :) but,thanks anyway :) But yes,the book is a great read,gives a good solid background to Poland in the 20th century,especially the war years .
Shawn_H
16 Apr 2008 #30
My wife (a nurse) has a patient in the Toronto area by the name Kent. She is apparently the daughter in law of S/Ldr Kent of the 303rd.


Home / History / Kosciuszko Squadron - why don't they bring it back?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.