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WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed


sjam 2 | 541
29 Sep 2009 #151
I don't think that Soviets can use the existence of partisan groups as an excuse to call the murdering of regular army officers, settlers, lawyers, landowners and
priests a "war crime".

The Soviets arrested them all for being members of insurgent organisations and activities against Soviet occupation and control ie. being involved in resistance organsations that why just 500 priests, landowners and lawyers were arrested from all the thousand of priests, landowners, and lawyers there must have been in Eastern Poland that were neither arrested or executed. Unless you arguing that these represented majorative numbers in each group... which is hardly credible.

And if we are led to believe that the Polish military elite were specifically targetted for execution, then the arrest of General Michał Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz in March 1940 (the time of the Katyń execution memorandum) and his subsequent release in 1941 truly puts paid to that hypothesis! Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz was not a guest at the 'Villa of Hapiness' was he, so how do you explain why the Soviets did not murder him also? Many others like Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz (and there were there quite a number) that joined Anders army in USSR included officers like Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz in its ranks that were released under the amnesty and not murdered at sites like Katyń.
Harry
29 Sep 2009 #152
Anders army in USSR

Wasn't that army led by a bloke called Lieutenant-General Władysław Anders? I seem to remember something about him being captured by the Soviets in 1939. Very shoddy bit of planning by the Soviets that: they, according to Torq, specifically targetted the Polish elite for extermination but managed to only torture the Lieutenant-General who'd end up as Commander-in-Chief of the Polish armed forces!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
29 Sep 2009 #153
Harry has a good point, Torq. They were POW's in the absence of a formal declaration of war. Also, I recall an essay I did on the Rome Statute all those years ago. I dug it out. Article 8 2 (b) states that "international armed conflict" is enough. There was certainly that by April 1940.
Torq
29 Sep 2009 #154
"The Soviet Government grants amnesty to all Polish citizens now detained on Soviet territory either as prisoners of war or on other sufficient grounds, as from the resumption of diplomatic relations."

There were some prisoners taken during the war that ended in September/October 1939
and who apparently were still held prisoner long time after the war. I have no idea what
did the Soviet, communist murderers mean by "other sufficient grounds".

I note that you completely ignore the fact that by your definition of genocide Poland committed genocide on the Jews and the Ukrainians.

I don't deny that Poles may have commited genocidal crimes on other nations/religious
groups (it is likely that such genocidal crimes happened in our history).

I also note that you have still not explained why the people sjam and I have listed were charged with war crimes (in addition to crimes against humanity) but not with genocide.

Do you mean those Cambodian communists?

I did say...

I don't know. I'm not a specialist on the matter so you might try writing to
Cambodian Genocide Group and ask them. They should be well informed on
the matter.

...you must have missed that bit, Harry. Let me know when they answer you.

Unless you arguing that these represented majorative numbers

I'm not arguing about numbers at all. Numbers are your obsession, not mine.

so how do you explain why the Soviets did not murder him also?

specifically targetted the Polish elite for extermination but managed to only torture the Lieutenant-General

Soviets murdered that part of captured Polish elite that they believed might
have been the obstacle to their establishing of political dominion on Polish lands
(that's why it was a genocide commited for political reasons).
If for some reason they were led to believe that some members of Polish elite
weren't such a threat to them, they might have released them.

Article 8 2 (b) states that "international armed conflict" is enough. There was certainly that by April 1940.

What is the definition of "international armed conflict"? If it is a conflict between
regular units of two countries then there was certainly no such conflict between
Poland and USSR in April 1940.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
29 Sep 2009 #155
Well Torq, how do you account for the stupidity of Niesolowski when he said that there had only been 2 genocides in history? The key is knowing how to read an international law document in the context in which it was framed. I think Katyn did have genocidal elements but we have to understand the intentions of the drafters.

Well, soldiers were involved and the Soviets had already invaded. I'd interpret that as an act of war.
Torq
29 Sep 2009 #156
Well Torq, how do you account for the stupidity of Niesolowski when
he said that there had only been 2 genocides in history?

Oh, don't even get me started on Niesiołowski, Seanus. I don't want to ruin
the thread about Katyń with mentioning that half-wit.

I think Katyn did have genocidal elements but we have to understand the intentions of the drafters.

Well, soldiers were involved and the Soviets had already invaded. I'd interpret that as an act of war.

I agree that there is a wide open space for different interpretations, but for me personally,
Katyń will remain an example of genocide, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on
this one.
Harry
29 Sep 2009 #157
There were some prisoners taken during the war that ended in September/October 1939 and who apparently were still held prisoner long time after the war.

So you agree that there were prisoners held as prisoners of war but still claim that there was not a war at that time. OK, that makes perfect sense.

Do you mean those Cambodian communists?

Not only them, there is also:
Former President of Sierra Leone Charles Taylor;
President of Sudan Omar al-Bashir;
Former Vice President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo Jean-Pierre Bemba;
Germain Katanga;
Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui;
Radovan Karadžić;
Ratko Mladić.
All have been charged with war crimes despite there not being a declared war.
Torq
29 Sep 2009 #158
So you agree that there were prisoners held as prisoners of war but still claim that there was not a war at that time. OK, that makes perfect sense.

Don't worry, Harry. It's just your appalling reading comprehension playing tricks
on you again. There was a war between Poland and USSR (although not declared)
in September/October 1939 and during that time some of the prisoners were captured
(therefore they were considered prisoners of war).
There was no war between Poland and USSR (declared or not) in April 1940, when the
genocide was commited (when also prisoners, who were captured after the war or having
nothing to do with military operations, were murdered).

Anyway - I really couldn't be arsed to explain everything to you twice or three
times and to repeat the same things over and over again, so next time you ask
about something I already explained I will simply not answer that.
sjam 2 | 541
30 Sep 2009 #159
I'm not arguing about numbers at all. Numbers are your obsession, not mine.

Glossing over the numbers shows the weakness of your genocide argument. The numbers you ignore give dimension and context to the crime being considered.

In just one example the facts are clearly demonstrated in the NKVD execution memorandum that were 10 times as many deserters on the execution list than your 'many of them weren't even military personnel but lawyers, land-owners, settlers and priests; who amounted to just 500 people or less than 150 persons from each group. I repeat, there must have been thousands of priests in Eastern Poland at the time yet the Soviets arrested roughly 100 of them. So did they arrest all the Church leadership, the elite...no they arrested only those few priests suspected at the time of belonging to insurgent organisations or what we would call underground resistance organisations engaged in an insurgency war against the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland just as some priests were doing in German occupied Poland. You seem to be implying that there was no underground resistance in Eastern Poland and Poles were happy to leave the Soviets alone but not the Germans? Which is not the case at all.

As I have said before IMO Poland needs Katyń to be genocide and not a war-crime for the reasons I have outline earlier in this thread. I think I have bored everyone enough on this so I am out... over to you!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
30 Sep 2009 #160
Yes but that doesn't make it genocide. You can't just claim sth because you want it to be that. Genocide is largely targeted at civilians. Just look at Sarajevo, Rwanda, Ukraine and the Holocaust for evidence of that. Torq, it doesn't matter that a war exists between two nations, it is a characteristic crime of a warlike nature that matters and I can't see anything in the Conventions which says otherwise.
Torq
30 Sep 2009 #161
You seem to be implying that there was no underground resistance in Eastern Poland

Where did I imply that? I simply said that the presence of partisan, resistance
groups on a given area doesn't justify calling genocide a "war crime".

Poland needs Katyń to be genocide and not a war-crime for the reasons I have outline earlier in this thread.

Your pseudo-psychological theory is worthless, Sjam. Poland doesn't need Katyń
to be genocide, because there already was a genocide against Poles in Soviet Union
prior to 1939.

characteristic crime of a warlike nature

"Characteristic crime of a warlike nature"? Sorry, Seanus, but that definition
looks a bit dodgy to me (and so spacious that you can easily fit almost
everything in it).

I think I have bored everyone enough on this so I am out

You got that right. I wouldn't want to bore people either so I am out too.

As my final word in this thread I would like to honour the memory of all Polish citizens
(regular army officers, policemen, priests, settlers, land-owners, lawyers and others)
murdered in the Katyń genocide and express my hope that in the future there won't
be too many of those who would wish to deny the genocide commited in April 1940.

Torq out...
Seanus 15 | 19,674
30 Sep 2009 #162
Torq, read Article 8 of the Rome Statute. MANY things fall within the parameters. It has such a wide ambit.
Harry
30 Sep 2009 #163
There was no war between Poland and USSR (declared or not) in April 1940, when the genocide was commited

So, there were prisoners of war held by the USSR, half of Poland was occupied by the army of the USSR, Polish forces led by a Polish General were engaged in armed struggle against the USSR but in your mind the USSR and Poland were at peace in 1940. OK, nice to see that you are completely out of your mind.

- I really couldn't be arsed to explain everything to you twice or three
times and to repeat the same things over and over again, so next time you ask
about something I already explained I will simply not answer that.

How about you explain why Former President of Sierra Leone Charles Taylor; President of Sudan Omar al-Bashir; Former Vice President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo Jean-Pierre Bemba;

Germain Katanga; Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui; Radovan Karadžić; and Ratko Mladić have been charged with war crimes. I've asked you to explain several times but you never do. Although it is of course clear to the rest of us that the reason you do not explain is that you can not explain it.
George8600 10 | 632
9 Oct 2009 #164
Having studied the Soviet Union excessively, Katyn was a number of things:

1. It was Stalin's war and dominance of Poland in the agreement that with Hitler it would be invaded, and with such any country invaded by the Soviet Union would suffer mass casualties by what was determined by Stalin's social engineers and tactic officials. In Ukraine the massive peasant class was to be reduced (which it was) by several million; and so the NKVD organized mass starvations and executions. Essentially as read in the documentation below, part of the plan was to weaken intelligentsia within Poland (meaning high ranking official associated with government) making it easier for the Soviet government to take power and maintain it. There were also constant prosecutions of such intelligentsia throughout Soviet control of Poland which included high ranking clergy, government officials, industrialists, military generals, academics.

2. The second was that all this occurred during the Great Purges or also known as the Great Terror. Surrounding these years many were executed, or detained to Gulags to die. Reason being that there wasn't much reason, other that Stalin's egotistic 'cult of personality' and the constant low minded fear and mistrust in the Public. The NKVD massively led these purges and went by numbers and quotas rather than names and justice. Each city and district within the Soviet Union and states under its control were administered with quotas from the Kremlin, which eventually was put upon to society. NKVD officers would just arrest at random; the matter which had the most effort was when they went to civilian communities anywhere, took the head of the community and ordered him/her to put 5 to sometimes 20 names on a list. If they failed to do so by the next morning here the NKVD would come to collect the list, that person and their families would become all the blank spaces on the list for failing to follow orders. Then the next night in the deep hours of midnight, they would be arrested and never seen again. Millions died of these purges. Some massive targets were religious icons, anti-Soviet ailments, and immigrants. Immigrants were a special case, anyone with partial or full ethnicity other than Russia going back at least a generation was ordered into exile; if protested they were shot. However Poles were and exception that were living in Russia, most were shot (about 25,000 to 50,000 estimated) without warning. The remaining 40,000 or so fleeted back to Poland. Ironically only to be invaded by the Soviet regime again.

3. It was under treaty with the Nazi Germany. The Katyn forest massacre was in away planned out in many of the documents immersed during the two year allied ship between Stalin and Hitler. Yes, Poland was to be invaded, and yes quotas were made in the thousands to target high ranking officials and again intelligentsia. Of course it wasn't listed or planned out as the Katyn forest massacre, but those individuals were most likely going to die without doubt.

4. This fourth point isn't in fact but rather many assumptions made by historians. Stalinist Russia was a place with systems and functioning woven so deep that not even highest ranking officials of the Kremlin knew of them. It is known that Stalin had tons of academics working for him. Sociologists, biologists, political theorists, chemists, economists, geneticists, psychologists, etc. The majority with doctorates, some from even American universities. At the collapse of Stalin, and even at the end of the Soviet Union many of the documents, journals, and projects all these academics worked on were stored in mass archives in the bunkers/basements of the Kremlin and Lubyanka; many were also burned and shredded. However the few that did emerge contained disturbing revelations. All the way from eugenic prophecies to human mind control to population exterminations to chemical and biological warfare technologies to social engineering at the darkest of levels. Tons of scientific theories many attempted to be proven by highly unethical and immoral experimentation whether it be on innocent individuals or populations of individuals. (ie. They would take apart someones brain piece by piece (while alive) to determine certain psychological phenomena, test bio-warfare diseases on innocent individuals, etc. etc.) So it might not be surprising if the Katyn forest massacre was an underground project of Stalin to promote such social engineering supported by ill- minded theories on eugenics and or social darwinistic theories.

Here is an interesting fact, all the 20-35 NKVD officers whom were responsible for the executions of the Katyn Poles (whom wore leather butcher dresses to prevent the blood and brains from seeping onto their uniforms) were each awarded the Order of Lenin for brave and heroic actions toward the Soviet Union. In a couple of years, over half of them would perish in Stalin's second Great Purge, and the rest would die of natural age before the collapse of the Soviet Union. The hypocrisy and irony of it all.

Below I have attached a document signed by Stalin and Beria (Stalin's second hand man). Basically it says in Russian the patriotic reasons and permissions to go on with the executions. *Please click the image for a readable higher resolution.

KATYN DOCUMENT

More images:

POWS

American and British POWS were brought by Nazi's to ridicule the barbarianism of the Soviets, when ironically it was the Nazi's that collected those 25,000 Poles and handed them over to the Russians with pride.

Again more propaganda and hypocrisy on the Nazi side to depict the barbaric acts of the Soviet regime.

MARCH OF DEATH

The Poles being marched to Katyn. NOTICE the Red Army soldiers in front, and the German soldiers to the side of the marching line; look closely to see their distinguisable helments.

The massacre:

1

2

Modern rememberance:

3

4

5

Never forget what tyrants did to our innocent people!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
9 Oct 2009 #165
NOTICE the Red Army soldiers in front, and the German soldiers to the side of the marching line; look closely to see their distinguisable helments.

Can you please point them out to me? I can't see them on this pic! *squints hard*

(Actually I see nobody with a helmet...)
HWPiel 1 | 64
15 Feb 2010 #166
To quote Stalin himself on Katyń, "... a mistake was made."

Some good, interesting and off-the-wall points have been made on this thread. However I see too many modern "revisionists" trying to distort an event 70 years ago using their modern analytical and reasoning skills. This is the fundamental crime of historians... see Norman Davies.

Right or wrong, the Soviets perpetuated this act against Poland. Poles who were deemed incapable of conversion to whatever form of government Stalin offered his people were to be liquidated for the good of the CCCP. The course of action was a predetermined murder signed by the top echelon of USSR government.

Call it what you want, the Soviets did a very bad thing towards Poland at Katyń, which ruined relations for a long time. Germany had it all spelled out their racial hygiene in their theoretical documents, but the paranoia of the Soviet Union was a quiet killing of many via purge of enemies. Strong arm tactics that go back as far as the Cheka... ironically with the very same group of players.

Hearing some of the brazen comments here about: anti-Jewish, Polish, German and Russian/Soviet, or any combination thereof really makes me shake my head... that even after Russian Revolutions and World Wars my Slav cousins o'er seas still cannot get it together.

I agree with one other comment, the few thousand deaths of Polish officers compared to the horrific crimes Stalin committed against his own people is just incredible to fathom.

I still assert that Katyń was, in fact, classifiable as a genocidal act according to Lemkin. I am just glad that I grew up in America... where my biggest problem was figuring out which pair of Levi jeans to wear (an attempt at humor).
hague1cameron - | 85
15 Feb 2010 #168
MareGaea
they tried to eliminate its entire Intelligentsia, surely that is bad enough. By targeting a certain group of people because of their station in life and eliminating them for that reason is surely genocide.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #169
Well, the Genocide Convention itself does say 'in whole or in part' so that in itself seems to be strong evidence.
convex 20 | 3,930
15 Feb 2010 #170
...of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. It doesn't mention "class".
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #171
They were part of an ethnic group. Please explain why they wrote, 'in whole or in part'
convex 20 | 3,930
15 Feb 2010 #172
Everyone is part of an ethnic group. The Italians and the Germans that were killed by the Soviets aren't classified as Genocide.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #173
What do you think the drafters envisaged by 'in part'?
convex 20 | 3,930
15 Feb 2010 #174
I think it was aimed towards the indiscriminate killing of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. The Soviets targeted a specific class of people. Housewives and laborers weren't murdered because of their ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Compare Katyn with Rwanda, Srebrenica, Darfur, the Holocaust.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #175
And that's what I've argued above, convex. Check back earlier in the thread. It doesn't really have the character of genocide. Think about it, why was so much written on the international tribunals (I recommend R.D.Jones) concerning only the FRY (as it was) and Rwanda? Katyń didn't even get a mention in my International Criminal Law course.
convex 20 | 3,930
15 Feb 2010 #176
Note to self, read more than the last post...
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #177
Just like chess players do, I like to look at both sides of the position but I prefer your interpretation which squares with how I was told to interpret it. It is mass murder.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
15 Feb 2010 #178
As Jesus said, and it applies both to Pharisees and certain PF posters:
'Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.'
Seanus 15 | 19,674
15 Feb 2010 #179
And how is that relevant to the thread, Joe?


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