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Polish hatred towards Jews...


kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #991
And I really find it astounding that Germany is so popular with Jews, especially Israelis.
It's something I can hardly understand..
I can't understand it either. Its a strange world.

I don't think that's so terribly strange. I think those Isrealis are forward-thinking, forgiving people. No, wait, not forgiving the unforgivable, but understanding that the scumbags who did the unthinkable are mostly gone and the new generations are not like them.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #992
but understanding that the scumbags who did the unthinkable are mostly gone and the new generations are not like them.

Hey, it's my grandpa you are speaking of....and what do you know about us anyhow!
kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #993
Ah, so you don't like it when someone points fingers at you. Hey, why didn't you offer me a beer? How sexist of you!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #994
Hey, why didn't you offer me a beer? How sexist of you!

I'm NOT a sexist! I think... A beer?
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Jan 2010 #995
I think those Isrealis are forward-thinking, forgiving people.

I think they are detached from their history.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
18 Jan 2010 #996
That has nothing to do with the attitudes of the regular people (no one asked them either) in that period or later. And when Poland gained independence after WWI, anti-Jewish feeling hit an all-time high. I don't see how anyone can deny this. With all due respect to today's Poland, it was not warm and welcoming to Jews since about the 17th century.

Attitudes of the regular people were varied in time,place and often depended on personal experience.
This is two way street often anti-Jewish feeling were not without a reason.
Generally speaking period after Poland regained Independence nationalism were on the rise.
Every groups and minority were regarded from the point of view of it contribution and loyalty towards state.
Because antebellum Jewish minority were varied politically and their loyalty as a whole were rightly questioned and there was also economical issue.
To conclude, your generalization about not welcoming Poland is all wrong.
First of all Poland were home for Jews for many generations, and like for many others (non-Jews) hardly were warm or welcome, its was home for better or worse.

There was one factor however which make things complicated, Jewish population as a whole didn't assimilate. They separated themselves from society to the extend that living in Polish state didn't learn language, others were building communist or socialist Jewish parties and of course many embraced Polish culture.
yehudi 1 | 433
19 Jan 2010 #997
To conclude, your generalization about not welcoming Poland is all wrong.

You say I'm wrong, but you haven't contradicted anything I said. You say that it wasn't very warm or welcome for anyone else either, but it was home for better or for worse. I agree. You pointed out the reasons why polish nationalism took on an anti-jewish feeling. Your analysis is mainly correct (although you left out the anti-jewish influence of the church). So then you agree with me that Poland was not a friendly place for Jews between the wars as Kith would like to believe. Of course there were objective reasons for this – but the facts are there for anyone to see. And the bad memories that Jews have of Poland are the result.

Make no mistake – this was not just a Polish phenomenon. Jews in Iraq, for example, went through the same issues in the 1940s. (I happen to be reading a book about that now). There too the nation achieved independence from foreign rule and nationalism took an anti-Jewish tone. There too some Jews were assimilationists (into Arab culture), some were communists, some were Zionists and some were traditional religious people who wished the Ottomans never left. There were arrests, hangings and pogroms and then there was a mass flight of Jews to other countries, mostly Israel.

All these experiences support the Zionist point of view, which is that Jews who want to be Jews should live in their own country.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
19 Jan 2010 #998
You missing a point, whatever Poland were friendly place or not it was matter of perspective, for educated Jew immersed in polish culture it could be a very friendly place, for a Jew from little jewish town in eastern Poland - it could be unfriendly - although it could be said about polish village in the same vicinity.

You overlooked two factors that there were other nationalities in antebellum Poland then poles and Jews and secondly majority of the jewish population were paupers with no education living in mainly jewish neighbourhood.

The policy of Polish state had no bearings on well-beings general jewish population.

as for influence of the church its no middle ages, I think you greatly overestimate it.
bad memories of Poland come from two sources, being a poor and WWII, others factor were only secondary and now are being played as main issues.
yehudi 1 | 433
20 Jan 2010 #999
The policy of Polish state had no bearings on well-beings general jewish population.

You're ignoring too much history. Look at this link and tell me which part isn't true:
worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/Polish%20Antisemitism.htm
Ironside 50 | 10,907
20 Jan 2010 #1,000
You're ignoring too much history. Look at this link and tell me which part isn't true:

Well, there was nothing I didn't know about.
and there was nothing I find particularly discriminating.
Also those acts of the government took part in the last 4 years before a war, in my opinion its a hardly time for someone with a bit of wit to judge Poland as "unfriendly" place:).
yehudi 1 | 433
21 Jan 2010 #1,001
its a hardly time for someone with a bit of wit to judge Poland as "unfriendly" place:).

That article refers only to government actions. It's not as if they came out of a vacuum. There were strong currents of anti-jewish feeling among all classes of people in Europe for many hundreds of years and Poland was no exception. Since there were more Jews in Poland than anywhere else, these currents found expression there more than most places. In any event, the last decade left a bitter taste. When you eat a bag of pistachio nuts and the last one you put in your mouth is rotten, that's the taste that stays with you.

Again, I'm not saying that Poland is unfriendly to Jews today. Today, Jews are foreign visitors who leave after a week or two (except for the tiny local community), and not a large minority living within the country so the issue is not relevant anymore and only has historical significance.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
21 Jan 2010 #1,002
That article refers only to government actions. It's not as if they came out of a vacuum.

Well, there were anti-Jewish sentiments but still I wouldn't called prewar Poland unfriendly place. Yes, there were problems and issues to be addressed but nothing like the picture Zionist would like to present. If not for a war all issues could be solved in time.

And to dress here some balance to the picture of poor oppressed Jews - do you know about Polish student beaten to death by couple of Jewish workers.

In 1937 there was strike of farmers suppressed by the police, in some way antebellum Poland were full of conflicts if you concentrate only on Jews (they wasn't an monolith entity either)

you loosing full and true picture. The Issue cannot be concluded by saying that Poland were unfriendly!
1jola 14 | 1,879
21 Jan 2010 #1,003
You're ignoring too much history. Look at this link and tell me which part isn't true:

I looked at the link. It starts out like this:

it cannot be forgotten that interwar Poland had a very sorry record in terms of its treatment of its own Jewish minority.

...and then it lists limitations placed on Jewish businesses, lawyers, doctors, all "proving " officially sanctioned anti-Semitism. It gives serious references so we are comforted that it isn't a piece of propaganda. It is, however. No reasons for any of these actions are given except for... you guessed it, anti-Semitism, or dislike or even hatred of Jews. I have not checked these facts but I have a suspission they are not exactly correct.

There were more Jews in Poland than in any other country in the world except in the U.S. This was the waiting hall as the Jews waited to go home. If we accept this as being true, then we must also accept that they did not feel the same attachment to this land as the Poles. They were not farmers so the belonging is even more understandable. Allow me to make some generalizations here, or at least the same level as the Jews so often make about Poland. It isn't meant to antagonize you or anybody else. Citizens or minorities who don't feel attachment to the country they live in don't make the best citizens. Full assimilation would have elevated any problems arrising but we understand that was impossible because our religions differ and you couldn't expect the Jews to become Christians and give up their beliefs. Not to say they were bad citizens, very productive in fact,but our cultures differed and the more influence they had on our culture, they were perceived as a threat to our culture and the nationalist and Christian character of Poland. One doesn't have to a Marxist to understand that economics influence culture. As certain professions and sectors of industry became unproportionally staffed with Jewish workers and owners, the government enacted protectionist measures. We do not call tarifs and import taxes racist so we also shouldn't call these measures anti-Semitic either. Tests in Polish are viewed as anti-Semitic, but a question should be asked why weren't they speaking Polish but only Yiddish. In today's Israel can I take a profession cerfication test in Arabic or Armenian?

Warsaw had a larger population of Jews than whole of England, and 32% of lawyers and 66% of doctors were Jewish(well respected, you can be sure of that). In other parts of Poland this was even more pronounced.

From your link:

In May 1937, the membership of the Polish Medical Association adopted a paragraph into their professional charter excluding Jews from the medical profession.

This appears to mean that Jews had to seize practicing medicine, but I find that hard to believe. When you read that, what is your interpretation?

So the problem with the article you referenced is not what says, but it fails to address to get a fuller picture.

After 1935, Polish antisemitic political parties put increasing pressure on the government to pass legislation that would place restrictions on the social mobility of Polish Jews. These parties had been inspired by the example that the Nazis set in Germany with the passage of the Nuremberg Race Laws.

There was one openly anti-Semitic party then and had very small membership and was in fact outlawed by the government.
yehudi 1 | 433
21 Jan 2010 #1,004
What you're telling me is that there were objective reasons for anti-Jewish laws and not just blind hatred; that there were reasons that Polish nationalists had a problem with Jews; that an unassimilated minority is a threat to the majority. I know all that and I won't argue otherwise. It's that realization that gave a push to Zionism in Poland. We realized that to live as Jews, without having to be at the mercy of a majority, no matter how tolerant they might be, we have to be a majority in our own country. Which is why I'm writing you from Israel and not a shtetl in Poland.

But no matter how logical the reasons, the result was that Jews felt unwanted by Poland. If not for the war, as Ironside suggests, things might have worked out. The outcome probably would have been increased emigration to the West and to Israel until the remaining Jewish community would have been small enough and assimilated enough to make the friction manageable.

But instead the Germans came and the entire world of Jewish Poland was wiped out. In the trauma, it was hard for survivors to distinguish between the run-of-the-mill anti-minority feelings of 1930s poland, the religious anti-Jewishness of the church, and the insane, murderous hatred of the germans. In the Jewish mind it sometimes gets lumped together, and all the hurts of the past few hundred years come to the surface – "the churches preached against us, the Poles hated us, then the germans came and killed us and the Poles watched as it happened and then there were pogroms after the war, so we left, and good riddance."

That narrative seems totally unjust to you, and it's certainly simplistic. But what happened happened and these feelings were the result. The only way to heal the bad feelings is to be nice to each other now. There is no reason in the world why Jews and Poles in 2010 can't get along. As countries, Poland and Israel are friendly and they should be.

I have more to say but this is long enough.
1jola 14 | 1,879
21 Jan 2010 #1,005
But no matter how logical the reasons, the result was that Jews felt unwanted by Poland.

Well, if they wouldn't have been good at everything they touched, and would have been schmucks who just schlept around aimlessly, there would have been no problem. They were too successful. You just can't win. You become a doctor, bad luck, you don't, bad luck too. I lived most of my life in other countries, yet I came back home and I love the absolute mess we have.

BTW, is Yiddish still used for any reason?. Perhaps literature, music?

I understand what you are saying and it is good to have some insight from your perspective. We have an impression that Russians don't like us. When I travelled in Russia, and I went as far as Baikal, I found friendly folks everywhere. Some told me that their press is doing a good job in trying to ruin that mutual friendliness. Some will fall for that but the ones I met didn't. I think this is similar. I think the Museum of the History of Polish Jews that will be built in Warsaw will be really interesting and will have a good effect on relations. It will open a lot of eyes, some of our first coins have Hebrew symbols on them, no one knows that.
yehudi 1 | 433
21 Jan 2010 #1,006
some of our first coins have Hebrew symbols on them, no one knows that.

Hey, those coins fell out of my pocket when I was in Krakow three years ago!
Ironside 50 | 10,907
21 Jan 2010 #1,007
The only way to heal the bad feelings is to be nice to each other now. There is no reason in the world why Jews and Poles in 2010 can't get along. As countries, Poland and Israel are friendly and they should be.

I can agree with that.

Well, if they wouldn't have been good at everything they touched

Don't exegerate. please1

some of our first coins have Hebrew symbols on them, no one knows that.

who don't know?
Mieszko Stary
Rogalski 5 | 94
21 Jan 2010 #1,008
I came back home and I love the absolute mess we have.

Thank GOD for the EU, then.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
24 Jan 2010 #1,009
Poland was not a friendly place for Jews

You failed to mention why was that so. What about Jewish collaboration with the three occupiers (Russia, Prussia, Austria), what about denounced fighters of Polish uprisings, what about ridiculing the Polishness of citizens of re-born Polish state?

1939 in Kresy (eastern Poland) was nothing new, Jews simply followed their tradition of betraying their Polish host at every occasion.

the Zionist point of view, which is that Jews who want to be Jews should live in their own country

Don't hesitate, give us all more of a disclosure about the Zionism, its real agenda, NWO and things like that.
Be my guest. Go ahead.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
24 Jan 2010 #1,010
This "warm" and "welcoming" Poland you speak of must be that of Prussia, Russia and Austria since 1795 then..;)

I doubt very much it was Russia, who had pogroms and enforced military service for Jewish male youth.

Another example of Polish hatred to jews: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_among_the_Nations#Misconception

BTW, is Yiddish still used for any reason?. Perhaps literature, music?

There is still a sizeable Yiddish speaking population in Bialorussia, apparently. The University in Vilnius used to run (may still do) a course in Yiddish and invite people from there.

Compare that to 300,000 Israelis that traveled to Turkey. I don't think that means we have a big affinity to Turkish culture. Ok, it's closer and cheaper. But 25,000 is no big deal.

There is still a sizeable Jewish population in Turkey. I was recently teaching in UK on a summer camp and several of the children were Jewish. My professor at university was also a Turkish Jew.

As for Germany, it is a modern, sophisticated country and perhaps many of those Israelis who visit, or Jews who live there, choose to do so because after all the Jewish contribution to German/European society, they aren't going to let the scumbags win by giving up their right to a European history and identity. Fair play to them, too.

I believe the Jewish Theatre in Warsaw regularly shows performances (including "Fiddler on the Roof") in Yiddish. Several Jewish.Klezmer groups still use it in song.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
24 Jan 2010 #1,011
I doubt very much it was Russia, who had pogroms

Pogrom doesn't originate from Russian without a reason...

Harry,
have you started educating people that Bielskis were so very, very, very, very Polish yet?
Need a hand?

Eassssssy
goodnightvienna
24 Jan 2010 #1,012
Poland's dirty little secret ,that they would like to keep quiet, but just don't konw how to.
Anti semitism. Russians and Poles are just so so alike. Poles Just can't resist spray canning a Star of David hanging from a gallows on every bus stop from Warsaw to Poznan.

Alas, the local authority department is not able to clean off the bus shelter racist abuse because ,there exsits no obligation under law that creates for the removal of offensive or racist insignia from public view. In other words if the EU is not there kicking the Pshi Pshi ass to do somethimg they will not do it. Poland is not a civil society, they are as civil as the last EU hand out expects them to be .This is not a society that acts with digintiy, or responsibility .It is born hand first. Jews are probably no more despised than any other foreign ethnic group in Poland. Polska dla Polakow.Anything non Polish is there to be despised.Anything that makes Poles feels intimidated or inferior is there to carve a larger chip in their corporate national shoulder.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
24 Jan 2010 #1,013
larger chip in their corporate national shoulder.

I had a good laugh, thank you!
Now, who would that be ?
yehudi 1 | 433
25 Jan 2010 #1,014
Don't hesitate, give us all more of a disclosure about the Zionism, its real agenda, NWO and things like that.
Be my guest. Go ahead.

Here's a full disclosure of the real Zionist agenda: To be a free nation in our own land.
Sorry if it sounds too simple and too short, but that's it.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
25 Jan 2010 #1,015
Pieronek has said lately something about holo, expect soon the largest wave of "Polish antisemitism" since 1600 burnt in a barn :))
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
25 Jan 2010 #1,016
Poland's dirty little secret ,that they would like to keep quiet, but just don't konw how to. Anti semitism.

Show me ONE country where the Jews aren't despised. One will be enough.

Star of David hanging from a gallows on every bus stop from Warsaw to Poznan

Really? Been in Poland for almost a year now, never seen one antisemitic slur.

Polska dla Polakow

Right. And Israel for Jews only.
Somehow Jews are defining their jewishness by saying and believing in it, yet Poles are animal xenophobic biotches.

F@ck you. Go back to Hasbara manual, troll.

Sorry if it sounds too simple and too short, but that's it.

You're right Yehudi, it does sound too short and too simple, but no need to be sorry about it. Shoot me a link to the official Zionist page, if you could.
yehudi 1 | 433
25 Jan 2010 #1,017
Shoot me a link to the official Zionist page, if you could.

There is no one "official zionist page". There are many zionist groups and organizations, with a variety of opinions ranging from socialist to nationalist, from pro-compromise to anti-compromise, anti-religious and very religious. You can do your own research. But if you want to find what I think you're looking for, try the Stormfront. That's your speed.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
25 Jan 2010 #1,018
Show me ONE country where the Jews aren't despised. One will be enough.

Hell, they even hate each other in Israel.

See, Jews aren't hated anywhere as Jews...It is the gangster Zionist leadership that people hate, yet, because they are afraid of accusations of 'anti-semitism', people shut their mouth.

See, the Zionists and Nazis are very close in their 'spiritual' world views.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
26 Jan 2010 #1,019
yehudi
Why, thank you very much, not interested in white supremacists, though.
Interested in Zionist supremacists and NWO under Star of David flag.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Jan 2010 #1,020
Joe is right. I'd happily welcome Jews into my classes. They are a very diverse bunch (I mean different types) but not jumped-up Zionists. Bringing back Jews to their homeland is logical but we can see how they misbehaved in the Bible. They incurred the wrath of God many times and worshipped false gods. Also, like it or not, Palestinians occupied some of that land. Right or wrong, it was and is a reality.

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