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Polish hatred towards Jews...


yehudi 1 | 433
17 Jan 2010 #961
See, I can't help comparing that to Nazi mentality. What I mean is this: look at a group of people (ethnically or whatever) and just hate.

Excuse me? That comment was a bit of an exaggeration! No one here has any hateful agenda against Poles. There's an overall assumption in Israel that the European-Christian world has prejudices against us and that in Poland it's part of the culture. That might be incorrect but it doesn't follow from that we have any hate against Europe or Poland. It's just a grudging acceptance of the fact that we're not always well-liked. If blacks in Alabama say that whites don't like them it doesn't mean the blacks have a Ku Klux Klan mentality.

Who's running the education system in Isreal so that young Isrealis know about the bad Poles, but don't know that huge numbers of Catholics help Jews in the 1930s?

I guess you mean the 1940s. In the '30s, before the german invasion, Poland had a generally anti-semitic environment – certainly in the political sphere. You might say that was not typical of most Poles, but that was the impression that stuck. I don't think there's any reason for Jewish-Polish hostility today and I don't think there really is any.

I would agree that groups of Israeli school kids who travel to Poland should be given a more accurate impression of current Polish attitudes. More contact between Polish and Israeli youth would be a good way of doing that.
1jola 14 | 1,879
17 Jan 2010 #962
This a kind of negative stereotype about Jews which is inherited by successive generations in home education process esp in those families whose members were somehow involved in crimes against Jews (mainly by szmalcownictwo).

I wonder if you have any idea who szmalcownicy were? Can you explain who was this person? What did he gain? What did he risk? Was he Polish or Jewish? His possible place in society?

Also, try to describe a "successive generation" member of such a family. We would get a better understanding into this mysterious szmalcownik.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
17 Jan 2010 #963
I wonder if threads like this actually help decrease the alleged hatred or reinforce it. Likewise, how does it affect alleged Jewish hatred of Poles?
yehudi 1 | 433
17 Jan 2010 #964
how does it affect alleged Jewish hatred of Poles?

It doesn't have any effect on that, for 2 reasons:
1. There aren't more than 2 or 3 Jews in the world who see this site, and I'm one of them.
2. Jews don't hate Poles.
1jola 14 | 1,879
17 Jan 2010 #965
Anti-semites in Poland were always a sad, small minority of sickf***s despised
by the rest of Polish society (vide szmalcownicy).

Not necessarily, Torq. I'll leave szmalcowników alone for a moment since I asked Świtek to explain a little about them, but I can give you a number of examples of people who openly held views we would consider antisemiric before the war, yet when the Germans rolled in and locked up the Jews in ghettos, turned out to be their rescuers and supporters. Antisemitism in pre-war Poland had much to do with economics and competition and not with hatred. Reading Calek Perechodnik's(a Jewish ghetto policeman in Otwock) journal one is surprised, as he was, that the known antisemites he knew of, two brothers, helped him without reward over and over. A very hard read, where Jews and Poles would have to fight it out who was worse. This book is in Polish only so far, since the previous edition has been nulled. Bizarre situation, since both editions were released by the same publisher from the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw.

Zofia Kossak of Żegota was an antisemite, yet was instrumental in saving many Jewish kids along with Jews and Poles when they faced death. Many others called for aiding their fellow men, as at that point there was no reason to compete.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
17 Jan 2010 #966
2. Jews don't hate Poles.

I'll believe that on general, but the amount of posts I've read on other sites suggest one or two don't. According to some it is as if Poland invited Hitler in on purpose and then sat back and enjoyed it.

Glad you're an intelligent chap, Yehudi. Are you based in Poland?
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
18 Jan 2010 #967
Zofia Kossak of Żegota was an antisemite, yet was instrumental in saving many Jewish kids

Oh come on, she was lucky. A Polish antisemitic monster who happened to save few Jewish children (totally accidentally I suppose).

Yes there was this Polish Zegota organisation , founded by a Catholic women , Zofia Kossak-Szczucka . But those 6000 for a Jewish population of maybe 3 million is not so much . In the Netherlands there are approx 2900 righteous for a Jewish population of less than 150000 , proportionaly much more Righteous than in Poland.

I've read tons of sh!t spilled on Kossak on that forum and many, many others.
She was nothing. Poles were nothing.

Netherlanders were the heroes. Holly people of Denmark! were the biggest heroes (they are the best in the Jewish 'who helped the best' poll - they saved all of their Jews, all 8,000!)

Poles were the worst mo-fos. Period.

Have a nice day those saved in POLAND by a Polish dumb, catholic POS. Abe Foxman included.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,950
18 Jan 2010 #968
I've read tons of sh!t spilled on Kossak on that forum and many, many others.
She was nothing. Poles were nothing.

Yeah I can bet, that in your imaginery life ALL Poles should have have taken arms (wich even the home army didn't have plenty enough of) and rise up against the Germans (helping Jews alone was a death sentence) and freed all Jews back to their safe homes (wich weren't since Poles were shot out at streets and Germans could walk into a building without any problems)

Could you possibly think of where the underground army could have put thoose Jews IF they got liberated?

Neither Soviets or other Allies helped when the Home Army was giving out information on what was happening and they CLEARLY Couldn't do it ALONE!

You gotta be really... ill save that for myself!
1jola 14 | 1,879
18 Jan 2010 #969
You didn't get the irony in his post, G. Relax.

Ynet often has articles like that. The Dutch are not spared either depending which Jews are speaking:

A New Museum of Dutch War Failures?
The time has come to provide a more balanced view of Dutch behavior during World War II. One could imagine the construction of a "Museum of Dutch War Failures" next to the Anne Frank house, to be visited with the same ticket. [...]

jcpa.org

Anyway, Ynet takes turns, today Poland, tomorrow some other country, everyone gets a black eye, even Jews.

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
18 Jan 2010 #970
Ynet often has articles like that.

Articles are articles, of course.
What I meant and quoted was a user's comment, and in THOSE you can read crap like the above over and over again. Doesn't matter you give examples and explanations of the difference in Poland and the Netherlands or Denmark.

Doesn't matter you explain that the Danes were considered Aryans and their king could have worn Star of David arm-band cuz the Germans would have NEVER hurt him, doesn't matter that each Jew shipped to Sweden had to pay for it - whenever an article about Poland is published, sobs like the above show up and start their usual crap:

Poles were worst than the Nazis
Poles were cheering when a Jew was killed
Poles welcomed the death camps
Poles knew what was going in on the death camp yet they did NOTHING about it (sic!)
Denmark saved all their Jews!
AK murdered the Jews (happily)
Poles didn't help Ghetto Uprising's fighters... etc...etc...

Same people, same comments, over and over again. I think they don't even read the article, just copy and paste their ********.

You know that, you read those, too.

Have a good day Jola :),
E_T
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #971
Compare that: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3774804,00.html

Poll: Most Israelis sympathetic towards Germany

*puzzled*

That throws me:

..."People expect that younger generations have more positives opinions, but what is happening is actually the opposite. The older the person, the less sweeping and the more sober their opinions are towards Germans.

So...Jews who actually suffered the Nazis and the Holocaust have generally a better view of the Germans than younger ones who never experienced it? Whoa.....
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Jan 2010 #972
The survey is a bit suspicious since it probably had an agenda it was trying to promote. So I don't know how accurate it is.

But assuming it is accurate, I can think of two reasons the younger generation might be less friendly to Germany:
1. The older generation was more European in its orientation and felt more affinity to German culture. That awareness of the pre-Nazi german culture makes them aware that there is more than one side to Germany. The younger generation has no cultural connection to Germany.

2. The older generation has more of a diaspora mentality, so they might feel a need to accept and be accepted by the European world and therefore are more receptive to German "repentance". The younger generation couldn't care less whether Germans have changed or not. Who talks about the germans? The only relevance of Germany to them is their historical role.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #973
The survey is a bit suspicious since it probably had an agenda it was trying to promote. So I don't know how accurate it is.

Probably....

Who talks about the germans? The only relevance of Germany to them is their historical role.

Well, that isn't quite the case either, isn't it!:

usatoday.com/news/world/2007-04-01-german-jews_N.htm

...."In 2005, more Jewish immigrants came to Germany than to Israel," said Stephan Kramer,...
"Without immigration, most of the Jewish communities would not exist anymore," he said, adding that about 200,000 Jews left the former Soviet Union for Germany since the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989.

Or this:

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3793436,00.html

Israel 2nd in number of tourists to Berlin

Americans are only ones outside Europe to visit German capital more than Israelis. Some 25,000 entries of Israeli tourists recorded Berlin in first seven months of 2009
...

Yeah...totally disinterested....suuuuuuuure!
kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #974
I would agree that groups of Israeli school kids who travel to Poland should be given a more accurate impression of current Polish attitudes. More contact between Polish and Israeli youth would be a good way of doing that.

I can't agree with you that NO ONE hase a hateful agenda against Poles. I can agree with you that most Jews don't. I just don't see it in every day life. I have experienced unwarrented (from some, not all) in real life and especially on the net. I just can't agree with you when you say that no onehas a hateful agenda against the Poles. I know that there are some. Go back and read that post about Abraham Foxman who tells the students whom he takes to Poland that they're in a hostile country, don't go outside the hotel, etc.

I've known lots of African Americans who don't have that KKK complex. I also have known way too many who have. There is always some demogog in any ethnic group who will fan the flames of hatred. You and I have to work against that.

See, saying Poland had a generally anti-semetic environment is the idea you're promoting, whether or not you intend to. If it was so anti-semetic, was it not also anti-Gypsy, anti-Tatar, etc? Poland was among the most tolerant of nations, allowing minorities their schools, houses of worship and so on.

That impression that stuck wasn't the only impression that stuck. There are so many Jews who have the impression (because they lived through it) that Poland was very welcoming and warm to minorities. It's just that today, there are some (Foxman) who seem to want to stamp that out. Why?

If it would benefit the Isreali students to have more contact with Polish youth, why does Foxman do what he can to prevent that?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #975
There are so many Jews who have the impression (because they lived through it) that Poland was very welcoming and warm to minorities. It's just that today, there are some (Foxman) who seem to want to stamp that out. Why?

Where did you study history Ma?

/wiki/March_1968_events

....The wave of antisemitism instigated by the authorities of the People's Republic of Poland as part of the "anti-Zionist" campaign, served as a tactic to divert public attention from the political crisis in the country and resulted in the final mass flight of Jews from Poland.

kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #976
Not talking about 1968, honey. I'll buy you that can of Brasso if you pay attention. I'm talking about over the centuries.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #977
Well, hence my example...not only are there alot of jewish stories out there who have less than favourable memories of their time in Poland under the Nazis but that there is a much more fresh imprint what could influence current opinions.

After all 1968 is not as far back as 1945...and many Jews might remember that too.
The topic is "Polish hatred towards Jews" and not "Polish hatred towards Jews in WWII".

Official, government supported anti-semitism and expellation of Jews...you can hardly expect that to be without consequences.
kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #978
The topic

Sure, but I don't see a thread about Polish love and tolerance for minorities, also.
f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Jan 2010 #979
"...showed that Poland, with its strong nationalist traditions and a civil society, especially the Church, that had never been fully repressed, was the weakest element in the Eastern Bloc."

Sweet!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #980
Sure, but I don't see a thread about Polish love and tolerance for minorities, also.

Yeah...wonder why....

worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/Polish%20Antisemitism.htm

....so "warm" and "welcoming"!
Please keep your copy and paste to less than 100 words
kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #981
Yeah...wonder why....

because all o' y'all don't wanna seem to hear about or talk about that.
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Jan 2010 #982
Some 25,000 entries of Israeli tourists recorded Berlin

Yeah...totally disinterested....suuuuuuuure!

Compare that to 300,000 Israelis that traveled to Turkey. I don't think that means we have a big affinity to Turkish culture. Ok, it's closer and cheaper. But 25,000 is no big deal.

True, there are Jews from Russia who prefer Germany to Israel. That's because their Jewish identity is pretty flimsy. And there are Israelis who live in Germany, but since they're in Germany and not here, they have no influence on local attitudes. And they aren't looked at here as people to emulate.

There are so many Jews who have the impression (because they lived through it) that Poland was very welcoming and warm to minorities.

You're dreaming. Those who lived through Poland's "warm and welcoming" period died more than 300 years ago. Poland's kings welcomed the Jews in the middle ages because of commercial reasons. That has nothing to do with the attitudes of the regular people (no one asked them either) in that period or later. And when Poland gained independence after WWI, anti-Jewish feeling hit an all-time high. I don't see how anyone can deny this. With all due respect to today's Poland, it was not warm and welcoming to Jews since about the 17th century.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #983
Compare that to 300,000 Israelis that traveled to Turkey. I don't think that means we have a big affinity to Turkish culture. Ok, it's closer and cheaper. But 25,000 is no big deal.

Not only closer and cheaper but not being the country of the "Täter" either!
I don't find it comparable...

And I really find it astounding that Germany is so popular with Jews, especially Israelis.
It's something I can hardly understand..
kith 1 | 72
18 Jan 2010 #984
yehudi

No, I don't think I dreamt those episodes. Anyway, Poland was a multi-ethnic and multi-faith country. In the 18th century, ethnic Poles constituted 45% of the population. The minorities had their schools, their religions and their businesses. That's all I'm saying.
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Jan 2010 #985
And I really find it astounding that Germany is so popular with Jews, especially Israelis.
It's something I can hardly understand..

I can't understand it either. Its a strange world.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #986
In the 18th century, ethnic Poles constituted 45% of the population. The minorities had their schools, their religions and their businesses. That's all I'm saying.

Erm...correct me if I'm wrong but Poland got re-established in 1919 only.
This "warm" and "welcoming" Poland you speak of must be that of Prussia, Russia and Austria since 1795 then..;)

I can't understand it either. Its a strange world.

*nods*
A beer?
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Jan 2010 #987
A beer?

I gotta drive home. I'll have coffee.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
18 Jan 2010 #988
Erm...correct me if I'm wrong but Poland got re-established in 1919 only.

Yes, and the years 1700-1799 are considered the 18th century however final partition of Poland-Lithuania was nut until 1795. the 4 years you speak of can hardly be viewed as a 18th century.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
18 Jan 2010 #989
Yes, and the years 1700-1799 are considered the 18th century however final partition of Poland-Lithuania was in 1795.

Well, then that was the second partition she speaks of...still Prussia, Russia and Austria!

1700s
Poland's three powerful neighbors, Russia, Prussia and Austria, each want to own Poland. This was all but impossible without risking war with each other. They finally settled their dispute by dividing Poland among themselves in a series of agreements called the Three Partitions of Poland.

1793
During the Second Partition, Russia and Prussia take over half of what was left of Poland.

1795
The Third Partition divides the rest of Poland. Poland is "officially" non-existent for the next 123 years.

ShortHairThug - | 1,103
18 Jan 2010 #990
No, even after the second partition Poland still existed as a country, smaller perhaps but still there.

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