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Polish hatred towards Jews...


Bzibzioh
19 Nov 2009 #601
I believe in due time the Poles will get their recognition and perhaps there will be a dialogue between Jewish ppl and Polish ppl will take place, it just takes some time.

Funny that you mentioned dialog.

cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18027&Itemid=86

"Poland is trying to make amends for a history of anti-Semitism but took exception to a suggestion that the Poles were responsible for the Nazi concentration camps in her country."

"But she said she was "devastated" when Adam Atlas [Quebec Jewish Congress president] said to her that the greatest number of ghettos and camps in Europe were in Poland because that was "a Polish specialty.""

"Atlas, 38, later said that he felt he was expressing an opinion prevalent in the Jewish community about Poland."

"We are now trying to say the truth. If we cry together, we have a chance to embrace and try to understand each other."

But it takes two to tango in a relationship, does it not? And it awfully looks like Jewish side is not interested no matter what Poland would offer.
cheehaw 2 | 263
19 Nov 2009 #602
there is a real good book here you can download as a .pdf with all sorts of tidbits and details, very well documented

Traditional Jewish Attitudes Toward Poles

glaukopis.pl/pdf/czytelnia/TraditionalJewishAttitudesTowardPoles_MarkPaul.pdf
vetala - | 382
19 Nov 2009 #603
cheehaw
Do you think that there has never been any prejudice on the Polish side? Both sides didn't like each other and both reacted to each other's hate with a hate of their own. You can't expect every single Jew to accept antisemitism with patience and no bad feelings.

Bzibzioh
I also think that today Poles seem more interested in having good relations with Jews. But reacting to every misconception with hostility will only reinforce their negative feelings. If we want them to see our good side, we need to show it first.

Also, the article you provided is dreadful. Lines like “Even 65 years after the war, they are afraid to talk about it” or "efforts to demonstrate to Poles that those who risked their lives to save Jews are worthy of honour" make it seem like Poland is such an unbelievably antisemitic country that not only Jews but also their sympathizers are murdered on the streets every day. Whoever wrote this article is surely biased. It's no wonder then that Jews have a bad opinion of Poles. If I were a Jewish person I would have been afraid to visit Poland after reading an article like this.

And it's bullsh*t too. Even the biggest antisemites praise Irena Sendler's courage.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Nov 2009 #604
And it awfully looks like Jewish side is not interested no matter what Poland would offer.

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that you would come to that conclusion. You guys' conclusion is nearly always the same anyway.

I could easily rebuke this by saying that a lot of Poles are neither interested no matter what the Jewish side would offer, but I grow a bit tired of all the efforts of painting it black and white. If you don't understand what I am trying to say with my posting, then say so and just don't come with nonsense or try to talk around it. If you don't understand it, pls say so, I'd be happy to explain it. Because right now you just go on your merry ways and generally refusing a dialogue I suggested.

Pls stop this "us against them" stupidity. We've grown too old for this. But if you want to continue to live in the Middle Ages, that's your choice. You should, however, abandon Inet, TV and all the other commodities of the 20th and 21st Century. Either roll with it or skip out. It's not that hard to understand now, isn't it?

>^..^<

M-G (coffee)
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Nov 2009 #605
"Atlas, 38, later said that he felt he was expressing an opinion prevalent in the Jewish community about Poland."

The next sentence is even more shocking since:

His mother, born in Poland in 1937, is a child survivor, who was hidden by rural Christians.

...who risked their lives.

If I were a Jewish person I would have been afraid to visit Poland after reading an article like this.

It is from Canadian Jewish News.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
19 Nov 2009 #606
"But she said she was "devastated" when Adam Atlas [Quebec Jewish Congress president] said to her that the greatest number of ghettos and camps in Europe were in Poland because that was "a Polish specialty.""

You need to read Israel Shahak, a Polish Jew, who wrote 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion'...Shahak lived in the 'Warsaw Ghetto' and was also in a camp: a survivor of WWII...He clearly states that 'Jewish ghettos' were a creation of the Jews themselves, ruled by the rabbis, who found this the most convenient mechanism to control their people. He is far from alone in this POV:

biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis1.htm

Pls stop this "us against them" stupidity. We've grown too old for this. But if you want to continue to live in the Middle Ages, that's your choice. You should, however, abandon Inet, TV and all the other commodities of the 20th and 21st Century. Either roll with it or skip out. It's not that hard to understand now, isn't it?

We roll with it, we just roll a different way...Tell the Israelis to 'roll' with the fact that they are the last 'European' colonialist state in the world, and to 'roll' with the fact that there is nothing they can do to fight demographics, unless they want endless war...As a Polish American, I have no interest in spending TRILLIONS to prop up their state...Sure, let's get along, but let them understand that the door swings both ways.
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Nov 2009 #607
Yes, but the reference is to wartime ghettos and camps. Very few Jews know what really went on in the ghettos, and they frankly don't want to know as that would undermine their victim-only status.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,950
19 Nov 2009 #608
Blame individual Poles, who either did report the whereabouts of a Jew to earn their 30 pieces of silver or to uphold a law - DO NOT blame the whole. Period.

Poles blame them more then "Israel" does in fact. Remember that the Polish underground forces prioritzied traitors far more then anything else
jonni 16 | 2,485
19 Nov 2009 #609
Remember that the Polish underground forces prioritzied traitors far more then anything else

And very true.

Remember also that people in occupied countries didn't exactly have a huge range of choices.
Bzibzioh
19 Nov 2009 #610
Because right now you just go on your merry ways and generally refusing a dialogue I suggested.

As much as I love populist nonsense, hypocrisy, half-truths and sanctimonious claptrap - I don't think you know the subject enough to form a valid opinion, if you please.
sjam 2 | 541
19 Nov 2009 #611
Very few Jews know what really went on in the ghettos,

What a really stupid comment.

In fact we only know what really went on in the ghettos from those Jews that were in the Ghettos and survived. Not from Poles who were never imprisoned in the Ghettos and could not know what really went on. Karski's day trips into the ghetto only gave a brief snapshot of conditions as that of a visitor.

We only know about the Jewish and Polish blackmailers from original Jewish testimony, we only know about the infamous 'Thirteens' from original Jewish sources... not Polish or other sources. We only know about the gypsies also in the Warsaw ghetto from original Jewish testimony not Polish sources or from anyone else.

For example in the Warsaw Ghetto the only Christian Poles inside were converted Jews ( who were helped by the pre-war anti-semitic catholic preist at All Saints Church who was allowed to take mass at the church duiring part of the Ghetto period) and the Polish 'Bluey' Police on the gates of the Ghetto. There were also a few Polish workers in a few factories within the ghetto early on but they were fortunate to be able to leave every day.

\

Remember also that people in occupied countries didn't exactly have a huge range of choices.

No but they did have some choices.

The French certainly chose to help round up thousands of French Jews and send them directly to their deaths at Auschwitz; the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians chose to murder tens of thousands of Jews.

The overwhelming majority Poles did not chose to do this—despite a culture that was as anti-semitic as the rest of Europe, if not more so.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Nov 2009 #612
I don't think you know the subject enough to form a valid opinion, if you please.

Ah, so the whole world has to pity the Poles and constantly say that Poles and Poles alone suffered and that the Jews were cashing in on Polish misery before there can be a dialogue? It fits in the Polish tradition of self-pity, which seems to be a Polish national sport. And you know enough about the topic to form a valid opinion? An opinion which of course, if I may say so, points out the unwillingness of the Jews and the willingness of the Poles, just as it has always been? If you don't understand my statement in that particular post, it's not a shame, just say so and I will be happy to expand further for you. No need to hide behind silly pride ;)

>^..^<

M-G (nearly lunchtime anyway)
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Nov 2009 #613
In fact we only know what really went on in the ghettos from those Jews that were in the Ghettos and survived.

Not only but, we do know that 95% of Jews today have not taken the time to read the journals themselves, thus only getting a sanitized version only, void of any shame and self-reflection, but concentrating heavily to blame Poles, where in fact, Poles had nothing to do with the ghetto.

we only know about the infamous 'Thirteens' from original Jewish sources... not Polish or other sources.

That's because you don't read Polish, you idiot. We know plenty about Jewish Gestapo cells from Polish sources.
cheehaw 2 | 263
19 Nov 2009 #614
Ah, so the whole world has to pity the Poles and constantly say that Poles and Poles alone suffered and that the Jews were cashing in on Polish misery before there can be a dialogue?

Well, if all the jews in the ghetto spoke polish there might be a dialogue.

I think it's a great book, full of so many undeniably jewish and polish idiosyncrosies I've seen myself that it's hard not to chuckle despite the seriousness of it.

The best I have ever read as a matter of fact.

Whoever wrote this article is surely biased

oh yes, no doubt you read it carefully when i posted the thing while I was on page 80 and here you are just a few hours later giving a book report on a 120 page book that I have not even had time to finish yet.

your reading skills amaze me and I thought I was good!

Really though.. it's simply your own prejudices that speak since you obviously have NOT read the book.

Nothing better than a prejudiced person calling someone else prejudiced, is there. No wonder the world has so many problems.
sjam 2 | 541
19 Nov 2009 #615
That's because you don't read Polish, you idiot. We know plenty about Jewish Gestapo cells from Polish sources.

Which Jewish sources would they be based on?

Not only but, we do know that 95% of Jews today have not taken the time to read the journals themselves,

What survey evidence can you provide to back this wild claim up with? Or is it just another of your ingrained and ubstantiated opinions which seems to be quite a Polish tradition of yours. LOL.
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Nov 2009 #616
This survey:

"But she said she was "devastated" when Adam Atlas [Quebec Jewish Congress president] said to her that the greatest number of ghettos and camps in Europe were in Poland because that was "a Polish specialty.""

"Atlas, 38, later said that he felt he was expressing an opinion prevalent in the Jewish community about Poland."

Which Jewish sources would they be based on?

Gancwajch's Jewish Gestapo agents operated in and outside the ghetto. They were extremely dangerous to Jews in hidding and Poles who were hidding them. Polish underground had many reports on these agents. AK sources.

Jewish sources are not military reports but they are numerous though.

In pdf on "13"- punkt.ca/punk_7-8_2008/Steve%20Paikin%20&%2013.pdf
sjam 2 | 541
19 Nov 2009 #617
This survey:

A survey of one makes that 100% not your claimed 95%-unless her right hand disagreed with the rest of her body... LOL.

This just proves it was just another of your ingrained and ubstantiated opinions which seems to be quite a Polish tradition of yours.

Polish underground had many reports on these agents. AK sources.

Can you link to one AK report?

Your linked PDF does not mention any AK reports in the Bibliography.

But not surprising that the first main sources indicated are Jewish not Polish:

397 Ruth Altbeker Cyprys, A Jump For Life: A Survivor's Journal from Nazi-Occupied
Poland
(New York: Continuum, 1997), 39: 'In the midst of all this bustled the Jewish Gestapo
men, well fed, well dressed, wearing officers' top-boots. These were the notorious 'Thirteen', a sort of militia ... Collaborators of the worst kind ... we were much afraid of 'The Thirteen'.' 398 A. Rozenberg, 'Trzynastka,' Bleter far Geszichte (Warsaw), vol. 5, nos. 1-2 (1952): 187-225, xxxiv- xxxv (English summary), and vol. 5, no. 3 (1952); A. [Adam] Rutkowski, 'O agenturze gestapowskiej w getcie warszawskim,' Biuletyn ˚ydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego (Warsaw), no. 19-20 (1956): 38-59 (this study also refers to the Gestapo connections of the Jewish Ambulance Service [˚ydowskie Pogotowie Ratunkowe]); Abraham Lewin, A Cup of Tears: A Diary of the Warsaw Ghetto (Oxford and New York: Basil Black in association with the Institute for Polish-Jewish Studies, Oxford, 1988), 18; Yehuda Bauer, Rethinking the Holocaust, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2001), 145-46; Barbara Engelking and Jacek Leociak, Getto warszawskie: Przewodnik po nieistniejàcym mieÊcie (Warsaw: IFiS PAN, 2001), 220-33, 714, 729-30.

Proving plenty of original Jewish memoir sources and studies on which Polish sources have quoted. Which kind of supports my point:

We only know about the gypsies also in the Warsaw ghetto from original Jewish testimony not Polish sources or from anyone else.

yehudi 1 | 433
19 Nov 2009 #618
What is the point of this discussion?
vetala - | 382
19 Nov 2009 #619
cheehaw
Did YOU read my comments carefully? It was an answer to Bzibzioh.
As for your book, I came upon it while searching the web on Polish-Jewish relations about a year ago. I've read it carefully and didn't find anything that would differ from the 'traditional' antisemitic attitudes of Polish peasantry.
cheehaw 2 | 263
19 Nov 2009 #620
You know what.. at this point I am going to ignore YOU completely because you are a flat out liar. You were responding directly me to me and i even quoted you speaking in context of Irena Sendler.

the darn book wasn't even published until a few months ago, it has footnotes right here dated 2009 on page 64.

191
Joe Friesen, “Black Belt Teen Strikes Back at Bully, and Rallies Community Around Racism,” The Globe and Mail,
April 30, 2009;

and the very first page says April 2009
Traditional Jewish Attitudes Toward Poles
by Mark Paul

You, vetala, flat out liar. Go home to your crib.
vetala - | 382
19 Nov 2009 #621
cheehaw
1)Read Bzibzioh's article.
2)Read my first comment to see whom I adress last.
3)Read my second comment. Particularly the parts I quoted.
4)Turn your brain on.

Maybe then you will se that me response was meant for her...

the darn book wasn't even published until a few months ago

I admit it - I lied. I've read it a few months ago. In my defence, I couldn't remember the exact date and I only used the word 'year' because I didn't know if I should write 'about half a year ago' or 'about half-a-year ago' and I was too lazy to look it up. Next time, I will have a dictionary ready, I swear.

Edit - ok, I lied again. It was less than three months ago.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
19 Nov 2009 #622
Well, while you are on it, tell us more ......as it seem that lies come natural to you.

I-S (maybe something kinky for a change)
vetala - | 382
19 Nov 2009 #623
Oh, I lie about pointless and unimportant things all the time, especially when they have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make with my arguments.
Bzibzioh
20 Nov 2009 #624
I also think that today Poles seem more interested in having good relations with Jews.

Agree.

But reacting to every misconception with hostility will only reinforce their negative feelings. If we want them to see our good side, we need to show it first.

That's the thing which is bothering me: it's hardly any misconception. If in year 2009 a 38 yo Jewish guy born and raised in Canada, son of Holocaust survivor and a president of Jewish regional organization is so ignorant and malicious what about the rest of them? It's scary. Poland apologized and apologized again. Going out of the way to make amends. In return is getting slander after slander at every opportunity.

But that's Jews in North America. I think Jews in Israel, those REAL Holocaust survivors, are more level-headed and ready to have normal relationship. After all, Israel has REAL and dangerous enemies to deal with now, not some past irrelevant one. And can use an ally.

What is the point of this discussion?

As a Pole living in Canada I would like to NOT have to prove to every Jewish person I meet that I'm really not an anti-Semite. And not to read on a weekly basis in Jewish press about "Polish concentration camps".

Ah, so the whole world has to pity the Poles and constantly say that Poles and Poles alone suffered and that the Jews were cashing in on Polish misery before there can be a dialogue?

Nobody in his right mind is claiming that. Unless it is a Dutch "intellectual".

If you don't understand my statement in that particular post,

There is nothing to understand. Ask someone else to change your diaper today.
cheehaw 2 | 263
20 Nov 2009 #625
Next time, I will have a dictionary ready, I swear.

ok I apologize.

I cannot read every post all the time. and you posted right after I posted apparently mostly coincendental about pretty much the same thing.

You know.. there is something really wrong with this discussion if i may point it out.. and feel free to correct me if you really have FACTS that prove I am wrong.. but just prior to the state of israel coming along in 1948... and the zionists pushing all the palestianians and arabs out.. and causing so much trouble over there.. well those very same arabs, muslims and palestinians, from Tehran to Palestine to Iraq.. were giving refuge to displaced Polish citizens of the war.. and here.. you guys seem to be always on the side of Israel.. as though the arabs are your enemies.

According to the facts I've got, while this new Israel was pushing them out, it was those arabs and palestinians who were actually helping the Polish Catholic and Christian people.

So, I guess I really don't understand your logic or sympathies, if you truly are Polish, which seem more than just a little bit displaced in all this.

The polish refugees, those who survived russia, themselves also had to suffer the zionist surge in Israel you appear to support.

--- --- read this for instance --- ---

dpcamps.org/poland.html

The first stop of the refugees evacuated with Anders' army was Iran, where they found temporary quarters in large transit camps initially located in Pahlavi and Mashhad, and later in Tehran and Ahvaz. While Gen. Anders' troops were subsequently transferred to Palestine and from there to Iraq, the civilians remained in Iran. To accommodate the refugees, a sprawling stationary camp was established in Isfahan. Because it housed several camps for the thousands of orphaned Polish children, it came to be known as the "City of Polish Children." The relief assistance afforded by Polish, British, American, and Iranian authorities soon improved their living conditions and brought the devastating contagious diseases under control, diseases acquired in the Soviet Union which continued to rob the refugees of their lives even after liberation (over 2,000 refugees died in Iran alone).

and check this out:

immi.gov.au/media/publications/refugee/langfitt/langfitt26.htm

In January 1947, as many of the African settlements were being liquidated, Halina, Krystyna and their mother were moved to Gatooma Camp in Southern Rhodesia, where they joined Poles from many of the other Rhodesian camps. Their schooling continued for another year until the schools had to close as teachers and pupils left for England and other destinations. Once again, a commission from communist Poland arrived to 'encourage' them to return to Poland, which most refused. Branded as traitors and stripped of their Polish citizenship, these 'remnants' were moved to Tengeru early in 1948.

So those I mention above, and other refugees also, then in Africa as well, were stripped of their polish citizenship for refusing to return to communist Poland. Chances are more than excellent the 'arabs' you seem to despise include a good number of polish x-citizens with no where to go who were living largely in the good graces and often charity of those same arab and muslim societies.

These people befriended the Polish people in a big way and gave them a home when they had none.

Now, on that I may lack a few facts, feel free to tutor me.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
20 Nov 2009 #626
Cheehaw, why are you so pro muslim? Why don't you go over to an Islamic country and live for a while and see how you like it?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
20 Nov 2009 #627
My friend is in Saudi Arabia and he describes it as boring but not unsafe for him. He is a discreet kinda guy so he isn't gonna get into too much trouble.

I've only heard one hateful set of comments about the Jews here. That was by a schoolkid who seemingly had an axe to grind.
cheehaw 2 | 263
20 Nov 2009 #628
Cheehaw, why are you so pro muslim? Why don't you go over to an Islamic country and live for a while and see how you like it?

It's not a matter of being pro this or anti-that. War simply is not the answer to anything in this day and age. And it has nothing to do with nuclear weapons. it has to do with the fact that.. PP, maybe you look at an arab and see a violent muslim.. but what you are missing is that mixed into this crowd are the rest of your family. And for whatever reason.. how is they have survived so well here.. and suddenly.. the past couple of decades especially.. all this hatred gets kicked up?

Your polish cousins are.. palestinians.. lebanese.. iranians.. yes indeed they are. I would suggest you try, simply try, to respect them that's all. And you might just find out, most of these people are not violent people. They simply want to live in peace just like you do. Supporting their destruction.. hmm... I hope you have a nice way of explaining that one to your creator someday. and your cousins who go before you.

Try this short video about one of those polish war refugees who ends up marrying an iranian for some insight.

Polish Passage to Iran

jadidonline.com/images/stories/flash_multimedia/Polish_%20refugee_%20iran_eng_test/pol_high.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706
20 Nov 2009 #629
It's true, especially in relation to Iranians. Iranians are from one of the most ancient civilisations on Earth. They have close links with southern Slavs. Crow would kill me for saying this but they may even have closer links to Persians than to Celts.

We need closer ties but, if I am to believe the stories of the Jews and conjecture the Polish response, I'm not holding my breath. Too many people see differences and not commonalities. George Harrison alluded to this in the song 'Isn't it a pity?'
vetala - | 382
20 Nov 2009 #630
cheehaw

Ok, I understand your point of view in this particular aspect (that we owe more to Iran, I mean) but I don't agree with the conclusion you reached. The conflict between Jews and Arabs and the threat of a nuklear war that could claim the lives of millions of people is far too important to pick a side by counting which country gave more cookies to Polish children.

I'm very thankful to Iran for the help given to Polish refugees but it DOES NOT mean that I have to agree with everything Iran does, especially if its plans include nuking Israel. The fact that Arabs don't recognize Israel's 'Right to Exist' clearly means that they don't want peace, they want to annihilate Israel. I could never cheer for something like that.

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