The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 399

Polish flag over the Reichstag first?


guesswho 4 | 1,289
2 Jan 2011 #181
Wtf are you talking about? We LOST WWII.

Brilliant tactics are resulting in success not in bloody mess and disaster.

Germany lost the war because this psycho Hitler attacked too many countries at the time and because of a very cold winter in the SU.

shows how stupid he was not to listen to educated and trained generals in his stab.

This is what I was repeatedly saying in this thread.

What lagged behind was a STRATEGY

Well, Hitler messed it all up himself.

Can we get back to the flag, please.

Still waving ;-)
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
2 Jan 2011 #182
No polish flag on Reichstag, what else can you discuss?

OK. Then I ask that posters don't repeat themes and posts from other threads.
OP Kevwad 1 | 17
2 Jan 2011 #183
No polish flag on Reichstag, what else can you discuss?

And how do you know that for sure?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #184
No official or convincing unofficial sources that i know of say otherwise.
OP Kevwad 1 | 17
2 Jan 2011 #185
That's exactly why I believe it is true, doesn't it make sense the Soviet would want to erase that from history? I mean the guy who presumably did it was shot.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
2 Jan 2011 #186
Germany lost the war because this psycho Hitler attacked too many countries at the time and because of a very cold winter in the SU.

I always wondered how the war had turned out if Poland joined Germany on it's crusade, Poland could have provided millions of soldiers to the cause, plus having a large neighbor on a friendly footing would have be very beneficial to Germany in the long run.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
2 Jan 2011 #187
Can we get back to the flag, please.

Can't we tie the discussion about the polish flag to some worshipping of Prussia???

I'm in!!!
OP Kevwad 1 | 17
3 Jan 2011 #188
I always wondered how the war had turned out if Poland joined Germany on it's crusade, Poland could have provided millions of soldiers to the cause, plus having a large neighbor on a friendly footing would have be very beneficial to Germany in the long run.

Unlikely since Poland was anti-Nazi and anti-Communist, but if the soviets attacked first and Germany wasn't ran by Hitler then it could be possible.
sascha 1 | 826
3 Jan 2011 #189
Strategy and tactic are two different things.

Whatever... Result is what matters.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
3 Jan 2011 #190
Same mistake to underestimate the "Russian bear" like many "great leaders" made also A.H.. Tja, Austrians...

NEVER underestimate Russia! It is to be respected and feared.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #191
The great wise Prussian himself said:

The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia.

Otto von Bismarck

PennBoy 76 | 2,436
3 Jan 2011 #192
Otto von Bismarck

Except that great wise Prussian saw the world without Poles canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4757
And i wonder if this was true "On April 24, 1939, when Hitler terminated his non-aggression pact with Poland, he was furious that Poland rejected his offer of friendship and alliance.

Hitler made such an offer for the first time as early as August 5, 1935 when he declared that good Polish-German relations were of primary importance to him. He wanted a military alliance with Poland and Japan against the Soviet Union to which he had no land access. Poland's territory constituted a physical barrier between Germany and the Soviets.

Apparently Hitler's "best case scenario" was to attack the Soviets with some 600 divisions: 220 German, 200 Japanese, 100 Polish and 80 of other nations,
without having to fight on the western front. He hoped to mobilize in Poland some 10% of the population, or over three and half million men.

When Poland refused, Hitler put in practice Bismarck's plans and committed mass murder in Poland."
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #193
When Poland refused, Hitler put in practice Bismarck’s plans and committed mass murder in Poland."

Oh please, if Bismarck had wanted mass murdered Poles he would had done so.
Instead Poles could plan their resistance openly in their own free polish media, had their own representants in the prussian Reichstag and a growing middle class which got so wealthy and influential to make wrinkles on german nationalists foreheads as Prussia poured money and material into the provinces. An industrial development Poland should still profit from even decades later.

WHAT A MASS MURDER!

And no mass expellations either...

I wished you Poles would get a grip on your anti-prussian diatribes. Prussia was the most developed and progressive country in Europe at the time of the partitions, their education system and schools where unrivaled, in Prussia lived Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Hugenots and many others quite freely...Poles profited from that too. Many immigrated from other provinces to live and work there...must have been really horrible!

Oh wait..."Kulturkampf"...yeah, what a horrorshow. Bismarck trying to secularize the country, to losen the grip of the religious nutters on the education and official institutions. Something EVERY modern country strives for today. But then, german and polish catholics can whine together...it was a German trying to kill Bismarck for that.

What else..hmmm..wait...the horror show of trying to force a common language as official language for the country..Poland NEVER ever tried the same...of course not! One official language to be used in schools and offices...how criminal!!!
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
3 Jan 2011 #194
Oh please, if Bismarck had wanted mass murdered Poles he would had done so.
Instead Poles could plan their resistance openly in their own free polish media, had their own representants in the prussian Reichstag and a growing middle class which got so wealthy and influential to make wrinkles on german nationalists foreheads.

What about his Germanisation of the Province of Posen?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #195
It failed!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_the_Province_of_Posen#Failure_of_the_policy

Prussia's Germanisation policies in the Province of Posen mostly failed. Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans.

How horrible!!!! What do you think would Hitler had done?

Yeah...sure....they are both the same...

Prussia was a country with strict laws and order, for ALL Prussians...that meant also the Poles!

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30C10FB3A5414728DDDAE0994D8415B818CF1D3

"Poles in Prussia - Their growing prosperity causes alarm"

As Hitler had done....
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
3 Jan 2011 #196
Maybe you're right and Polish historians exaggerate things, as if Poles didn't try and Polonize Lithuanians or Ukrainians themselves. Hitler? He would have done this...
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
3 Jan 2011 #199
When?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization
Ironside 50 | 10,910
3 Jan 2011 #200
Ask Nathan?

Nat doesn't know ****!
Anything of this kind could had happened after 1921, so your Bismarck was first there!
Anyhow, why are you harboring illusion that Prussia was something progressive at times ?
Could you be more specific ?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #201
Anyhow, why are you harboring illusion that Prussia was something progressive at times ?

German chauvinism, they're raised that way, even the good ones.

Also BB yes doing stuff to Poles in Posen was horrible, Prussia invaded Poland and just because it was stealing instead of killing doesnt make it any better.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
3 Jan 2011 #202
yuck

He was a traitor and.. he did a lot of thigns to the guy in charge saying he should get what he got...

I think their hinting at bringing Polish-Jews into the area and only letting Poles or "polonized" Ruthinians "governing" or doing administative work
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #203
Anyhow, why are you harboring illusion that Prussia was something progressive at times?

Illusions? The books are all out there to read ;)

amazon.com/Iron-Kingdom-Downfall-Prussia-1600-1947/dp/0674031962/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294018070&sr=8-1

Prussia and its army were inseparable, but Prussia was also renowned for its efficient, incorruptible civil service; its innovative system of social services; its religious tolerance; and its unrivaled education system, a model for the rest of Germany and the world.

Bismarck was the first in the world who implemented welfare laws for the workers and the old....something all prussian subject, also Poles, profited from.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #204
So BB you mean Prussia did not practice institutionalised theft, did not allow aristocratic nepotism, did not starve its factory workers, did not opress polish culture, did not invade and steal polish heritage including stuff like the Crown Jewels?

There was no anti-polonism or anti-semitism in Prussia? No it was not progressive above other western countries and it had significantly more dark sides.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #205
So BB you mean Prussia did not practice institutionalised theft, did not allow aristocratic nepotism, did not starve its factory workers, did not opress polish culture, did not invade and steal polish heritage including stuff like the Crown Jewels?

As much as did you in Ukraine...;)
Or Lithuania...

I think most people had a good life in Prussia...and since the citizens were such a mischpoke to begin with it didn't matter what ethnie you were.

Millions of Poles became Prussians over the time...

There was no anti-polonism or anti-semitism in Prussia? No it was not progressive above other western countries and it had significantly more dark sides.

Sure all existed. There are no perfect countries...

But show me an opressing country where the opressed actually go richer, have the same rights as the other citizens, and their country gets developed by the opressor....you won't find many examples!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #206
As much as did you in Ukraine...;)

Sorry mate Ukraine was never a country, we were.
We ddint invade Ukraine, Prussia invaded Poland.

Lithuani tho, it was a mistake no argument there.

I think most people had a good life in Prussia..

Unless you were a Pole fighting to win back your independence or an industrial worker.

Millions of Poles became Prussians over the time...

Very few really, t'was a major problem for Prussia, Poles would do business with, learn german, serve in the army but in the end they still refused to drop their heritage.
Babinich 1 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #207
A largely ignored fact is that by the end of 1941 Russians were outnumbered

If you'll accept the month of December of 1941 as being the end of 1941 then that fact is largely ignored because it is wrong.

Comparative Strengths of Combat Forces, Eastern Front, 1941-1945:
1 Dec 1941
------------
Soviets: 4,197,000
Germans: 2,700,000 (Eastern Front) 67,000 (Northern Norway) 500,000 Finns & 140,000 Rumanians.

1.29:1 manpower advantage to the Soviets.

Table C, page 302
When Titans Clashed - David Glantz & Jonathan House
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 Jan 2011 #208
"From the military and agricultural innovations of Frederick the Great to nineteenth-century high academic politics to Bismarck's social-security system, this magisterial and remarkably well-written history of Prussia traces back to the eighteenth century the region's surprisingly tolerant and intellectually rich culture. Clark, a Cambridge historian, suggests that the world is poorer for Prussia's absence..."

Benjamin Healy (The Atlantic )

....I miss my Prussia... I'm living in the wrong age... :(

*slinks into corner*
Babinich 1 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #209
No, the Germans were fighting in the Atlantic, North Africa, over the skies of England (the Blitz) as well as continental Europe (the beginnings of the western allied bomber campaign).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #210
No, the Germans were fighting in the Atlantic

U-boats hardly contributed to war in Russia?

North Africa

5 divisions.

over the skies of England

Nope, they shifted forces from BoB to Russia.

as well as continental Europe (the beginnings of the western allied bomber campaign).

You're kidding right? A few Blenheims?

So yeah now that we established that Germans had some submarines and a small expeditionary forces in Africa we can say they devoted all of their available resources to fighting Russia.

Active two front war begins with Sicily in 1943, prior to that Germany is fighting Russia and Russia only, everything else is a total sideshow.

Your source implies that Axis forces melted by more than half a milion which is...a joke? I understand there can be a huge disparity in claims but lets not quote extremes?

Russia at the time of the winter offensives has 1.5 milion soldiers to Axis 3.2 milion, in early 1942 five new armies are formed with a grand total of 1 milion men and reinforced to a grand total of 3 milion by the fall of 1942, thats according to Berlitz, Porwit, SzymaƄski and Tormasov in their respective works.

All throught 1942 Russians are outnumbered, they bring 2 more milion men to the party in early 1943, a milion more in 44 and the six milion figure is the amount of active troops till 45, to Axis 4.2 milion active troops.

But in late 41 till late 42 Russians while still having more equipment are numericaly inferior.


Home / History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.