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Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly'


Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
21 Jul 2011 #31
The kids in question were 12 to 13 years old.

its starts around then..

Even earlier nowadays, but I seriously doubt that this 14 year old boy had so much sexual experience with both Polish and German women that he was able to compare. Not at that age,

he might not have , but I wouldnt doubt he said it cause he hears things from older boys
when your at a certain age, boys are talking about yeah, I was with lola the other night and
she was good, might not have even been true at all, but do you think hes going to say he
was a virgin around the other boys and get teased??? thats a boys nightmare!!

and they start liking girls at young ages... my husband said he was around 8 when he
started feeling really attracted to girls and he would punch them to get attention.. but
he said he was feeling more then punching.. it might have been less noticable then it is now
kids now just openly talk and in 1901 everything was hush hush to not shame your family.

so I doubt these boys would say hey mom, I just bagged a chick..

not in the prude society of 1901

you think people never had illegit kids??? that no one did anything bad?? LMAO
I find records of women who had kids that were illegit,, people did it then like they do now
but it was hidden back then.. you had to face the community back then now its dealt with by
their familys.. lots of cheating, children having children.. etc etc..

and not in a catholic community of that time. He was bragging and repeating what he heard at home.

this statement makes no sense.. maybe he repeated what he heard from a older sibling ( Male)
not from his catholic home ..... boys did it then and now..

my uncle bragged about how many women they had.. I questioned whether my dad had other
kids around the world.. I will never know.. but yeah, that was in the early 40s and society was
just as prude..

in 1901 it was prude, but doesnt mean they didnt do things like that.

[quote=TheOther]Beating students at school and kids at home was the norm at that time.[/

yeah regular beatings would have made me go to school too..

Back then they didnt have Police ( like 2011) so I am sure its possible for a large classroom
to stand up to these teachers, not necessarily do anything to them ,but not comply with
school rules and germanization, which is what they were rebelling against to begin with.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
21 Jul 2011 #32
you think people never had illegit kids??? that no one did anything bad?

I'm a bit into genealogy, so I know that illegit children were not unusual in those days. But not for 14 year old kids.

Anyway, my main beef with the whole article is that they put the kids on a propaganda pedestal ("The unbreakable children..."). I simply don't believe that the children came up with the idea of a protest without interference from their parents. The adults used the kids for their cause, and the article should reflect that.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
21 Jul 2011 #33
But not for 14 year old kids.

I dont disagree that they could have just been talking, but Im not dismissing it either.

bottom line..he prob wrote that because of what was going on at that time..

Someone comes along and tells you what to do, you will hate everything they stand for.

thats what I interpret from the writer..

children came up with the idea of a protest without interference from their parents

They are hardly children.

pre-teens.. big difference.

I am sure they had alot more responsibilities.. kids were working back then for pennies to support
their families if the father died.. the son ( if he was of age) became the man of the house..

todays teens dont have that mentality.. they want to lay around and do nothing but listen to music
and if they have to lift a finger to do a dish or even put it in the dishwasher, I dont know about
anyone else, but I hear alot of *WOW* and OMG you make me do everything..

kids back in 1901 said yes mama and yes Papa.. not OMG and WOW!!!

:)
TheOther 5 | 3,711
21 Jul 2011 #34
kids back in 1901 said yes mama and yes Papa

That's what I was saying all along: "Son, go and protest". "Yes, Mama, yes, Papa" ... ;)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
21 Jul 2011 #35
I simply don't believe that the children came up with the idea of a protest without interference from their parents. The adults used the kids for their cause, and the article should reflect that.

You have made the point over, and over again, that you do not believe the students devised the protest on their own, but you have no real evidence that the parents did indeed orchestrate this protest, and so you have given the article writers absolutely no reason to change their title. The fact remains that despite being beaten the students continued to resist for years, and they were thus "unbreakable", moreover, the title would still be apt even if their parents had encouraged them, for it refers to their resistance to Germanization despite being beaten by the agents of Germanization. You cannot be stupid enough to believe that these 12-13 year olds would've been indifferent to Germanization were it not for their patriotic parents, because children living under foreign occupation do not need no parental guidance to want to resist their oppressors. Resistance to injustice comes naturally to Poles, and to Polonia, at ages even younger than 12 years.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
21 Jul 2011 #36
because children living under foreign occupation do not need no parental guidance to want to resist their oppressors

Nonsense. A child that is brought up by Polish parents will become a Pole, a child brought up by German parents will become a German. Swap kids between parents, and you will end up with the same result.

From a legal standpoint, there was no occupation. Poland as a country didn't exist, and this status quo was accepted by almost every nation in the world. Many here don't like that view, I know, but that doesn't change historical facts.

Resistance to injustice comes naturally to Poles, and to Polonia, at ages even younger than 12 years.

And you really believe that?
Torq
21 Jul 2011 #37
From a legal standpoint, there was no occupation. Poland as a country didn't exist

LOL
That's exactly the kind of arse-dribble that we can, every now and again, read on PF. Brilliant.

Now, you better go to some Palestinian forum and tell them that there is no occupation from a legal
standpoint, so they can stop protesting, throwing bombs and stuff. While you're at it - don't forget
to mention that Tibet is legally a part of China, so what's all the fuss about? :-)
TheOther 5 | 3,711
21 Jul 2011 #38
Now, you better go to some Palestinian forum and tell them that there is no occupation from a legal standpoint,

Hey Torq ... why did I know that you show up ... ? :)))

To answer your question: do you really believe that in 1772/1795, anyone gave a rat's ass whether Poland disappeared from the map or not? How do you think the British Empire was created? By asking nicely whether they are allowed to annex a territory or not?
Torq
21 Jul 2011 #39
do you really believe that in 1772/1795, anyone gave a rat's ass whether Poland disappeared from the map

How is that relevant to the topic of the thread? Poles "gave a rat's ass", so they resisted
Germanization. Just as other occupied nations resisted their oppressors, even if "legally there was
no occupation" LOL

What is your point? That Poles shouldn't resist because it was illegal? :D

Too many times on this forum the thin red line of stupidity and general retardness is crossed by too many
members :-)
TheOther 5 | 3,711
21 Jul 2011 #40
Poles "gave a rat's ass", so they resisted Germanization.

Yup, and Germans gave a rat's ass and treated you accordingly.

What is your point?

You know exactly what I'm talking about, and now let's all be happy and move to the bin. Mods... :)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #41
or as if the German authorities trying to stamp out the Polish language in occupied Poland would've been obeyed by Polish youths unless their parents told them to resist.

You can't use a modern day example to explain these acts.

As I said - you simply don't seem to understand (surprise) Poland of 1900. Children simply didn't "rebel" in those times - it was unheard of, and unless they had parental consent, they would've never done such a thing. It's as simple as that. Nowadays? Different story.

Still, I wonder when you're going to visit Poland and see this for yourself?
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
22 Jul 2011 #42
. As for the boy's opinion regarding the German girls perhaps he meant that these girls had ugly personalities

Oh come the hell on mate, were you never 14 yourself ? :) Its the age of sudden stirrings coz the bleedin bus seat is vibrating or Miss has one more button undone on her blouse than usual and as she leans in to mark your text book..................................

The children only wanted to pray in their own language,

Huh,dont you guys do all that mumbo jumbo in Latin?

PennBoy: I've been to Hamburg on a week long trip so I must have seen a couple hundred women. They are, rough faces, big heads, masculine jaw.

Matey, which part of hamburg were you in? Coz,well,lets not put too fine a point on it....methinks you were trawling the german Bois de boulogne......or,put another way,ever heard the Kinks song " Lola"?

Oh, and anyone saying "children didnt rebel in the old days".bollox, google " Childrens Crusade".
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,436
22 Jul 2011 #43
methinks you were trawling the german Bois de boulogne......or,put another way,ever heard the Kinks song " Lola"?

No I don't recall looking at the guys if that's what you meant. Besides maybe the women there were appealing to you I don't look at one unless she's a 7 or above.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
22 Jul 2011 #44
No I don't recall looking at the guys if that's what you meant

Mate, they sound like dudes in drag.....there,spelled out for you :)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
22 Jul 2011 #45
As I said - you simply don't seem to understand (surprise) Poland of 1900.

Do you own a time machine that has allowed you to visit Poland in 1900, or does your current presence in Poland somehow give you psychic insights into Poland of 1900, and you believe that if I traveled to Poland I would be privy to the same? (Are you going insane?)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #46
I suspect that you have never actually visited Poland, what with your utter inability to understand how the Polish psyche actually functions. Tell you what though - spend some time learning about the II RP educational system, and you might just get a bit closer to understanding that Polish children in 1900 simply didn't "rebel".

It's certainly obvious that you're attempting to apply American ideas of "liberty" and "freedom" onto a society which didn't particularly believe in it - especially where children were concerned. In fact - children only really gained "liberty" with the coming of the Communist system - which had other ways of making children behave than physical violence.

But go on - how often have you visited Poland, and what knowledge do you have of the Polish educational system?

And you really believe that?

It's just sentimental Polonia rubbish. Polish history alone shows how Poles of all ages collaborated as much as they opposed - but they don't want to talk about that, do they?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
22 Jul 2011 #47
Yup, and Germans gave a rat's ass and treated you accordingly.

What are you talking about ?

You know exactly what I'm talking about, and now let's all be happy and move to the bin. Mods... :)

I don't, I think that you trying to be other even if it doesn't make sense

Polish children in 1900 simply didn't "rebel".

Just resisted unjust decree forced upon them.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #48
Just resisted unjust decree forced upon them.

Why they did is a good question.

I've found several (Polish) sources online which make it clear that the parents were actively involved in this.

Interestingly, it seems that despite the common belief that this was "Germanization" - it was actually the school director that went too far, rather than being any sort of deliberate act by the Prussian/German authorities.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
22 Jul 2011 #49
It's certainly obvious that you're attempting to apply American ideas of "liberty" and "freedom" onto a society which didn't particularly believe in it

Resisting being forced to pray in German, rather than Polish, in German occupied Poland, is an obvious example proving that Poles in 1900 did indeed believe in liberty and freedom.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
22 Jul 2011 #50
I've found several (Polish) sources online which make it clear that the parents were actively involved in this.

What of it?

Interestingly, it seems that despite the common belief that this was "Germanization" - it was actually the school director that went too far, rather than being any sort of deliberate act by the Prussian/German authorities.

Maybe he was just a scapegoat because Prussian authorities had a policy of forcing German language to all spheres.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #51
What of it?

It's just interesting, that's all. I'm all for the real historical truth being discovered - if the parents provoked the children, so be it. Doesn't change anything, but it's a bit less romantic than the child rebelling on their own initiative.

Resisting being forced to pray in German, rather than Polish, in German occupied Poland, is an obvious example proving that Poles in 1900 did indeed believe in liberty and freedom.

Really? Perhaps you might also want to examine the reaction to the May 3rd constitution - not only in how it was passed in the Sejm (certainly some chicanery there), but also in the reaction of powerful people who weren't too happy with it. You could also look at how easily the Polish were bought off, especially in Austria-Hungary.

Your romantic, "Polonia" view of Poland is rather hilarious to anyone with more than a passing knowledge of Polish history. Those of us livng here, who take the time to carefully read about Polish history soon realise that it's far more complicated and intricate than at first glance.

(so - when were you last in Poland?)
Ironside 50 | 10,910
22 Jul 2011 #52
if the parents provoked the children, so be it. Doesn't change anything, but it's a bit less romantic than the child rebelling on their own initiative.

Unfortunate selection of the word provoked , the German decree was a real provocation, children only responded and if they found support of their parents in this, it doesn't lessen they courage and steadiness,they were defying the power of Prussian state.

Romantic is for women and children.

so - when were you last in Poland?)

What is has to do with anything ? Poland created ethic of freedom, not by declaring it, or writing an theoretical study, but simply by living it. A fact that nowadays Poland stray away from her heritage, and many Poles are uncouth peasant who know nothing about that, doesn't mean that historical heritage is lost or irrelevant or that somebody who never been in Poland cannot recognize and cherish that quality.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
22 Jul 2011 #53
Really? Perhaps you might also want to examine the reaction to the May 3rd constitution

This thread is about Polish students being subjected to beatings rather than submit to Germanization in 1901 Partitioned Poland. Do you really believe that the resistance of some Polish aristocrats to the May 3rd constitution of 1791, one hundred and ten years earlier, somehow negates this thread's proof that the Poles of 1901 did value freedom and liberty? I suspect you don't really believe this but you made this ridiculous assertion because you are insanely angry at Polish-Americans and you are maniacally driven to oppose anything we say on this forum. Do you understand why you keep getting suspended from this forum? You are littering this forum's threads with nonsense, and unpleasantness, because of your Idée fixe
TheOther 5 | 3,711
22 Jul 2011 #54
Resisting being forced to pray in German, rather than Polish, in German occupied Poland, is an obvious example proving that Poles in 1900 did indeed believe in liberty and freedom.

Too bad that they were resisting to speak the official language of the country they were part of. There was no German-occupied Poland in 1901. The country didn't exist, no matter how you put it. It was annexed and part of the German Empire, Russia and Austria-Hungary. Why is it so difficult to accept that? Doesn't fit into the picture of the heroic Polish resistance and the noble freedom fighters that roamed the land, I guess. This nationalistic nonsense is tiring.

the German decree was a real provocation

I wouldn't call it provocative, I would call it stupid. The German Empire should've given its ethnic Polish citizens more autonomy, and - who knows - maybe, just maybe history would have run its course differently.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #55
This thread is about Polish students being subjected to beatings rather than submit to Germanization in 1901 Partitioned Poland.

I think you'll find plenty of examples from 1795-1920 where Poles were rather disinterested in the concept of "freedom" and "liberty". I mean - research, man!

(if you don't want to - I suggest you start with the issue of Polish and Ukrainian education in L'viv around the turn of the century. Might open your eyes a bit)

I suspect you don't really believe this but you made this ridiculous assertion because you are insanely angry at Polish-Americans and you are maniacally driven to oppose anything we say on this forum.

Tell me, what do you actually know about Poland? Have you ever visited? Do you know anything about the long history of Polish collaboration with foreign powers, even when it was directly against the interest of the people?

Your view is tainted by a romantic vision of what Poland was - unfortunately, like all European countries, the truth is rather more grey than you might like. I suspect that you've never actually been here - otherwise, you'd soon learn that Poland is no different from all the rest - and that money and power rules, not ideals. A good start for you would be to learn about just who was fighting for who - and why - during World War I.

Too bad that they were resisting to speak the official language of the country they were part of. There was no German-occupied Poland in 1901.

Funnily enough, children who cannot speak the language of Poland today are often discriminated against in a variety of ways, including being classed as "disabled" and being sent to schools which are nothing but educational wastelands.

And yes, I agree - there was no such thing as occupied Poland at that time. Anyone with a basic understanding of the differences between "occupation" and "annexation" would understand that. Again - sentimental nationalistic nonsense which doesn't reflect the reality on the ground.

Poles, on the whole, passively accepted the de jure annexation of the lands.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
22 Jul 2011 #56
Too bad that they were resisting to speak the official language of the country they were part of.

They did not, their language was only used for religion purposes in semi-official capacity.

This nationalistic nonsense is tiring.

The real nonsense is your striving to bend your prejudices to fit reality. Evidently it doesn't work and make you writing more and more absurd statements.

Nationalistic is trying to preserve language of your ancestors but a good and normal is forcing uniformity and sameness for a purpose of building one nation state - one language, one religion and one fuhrer.

Good to know your true colors mr totalitarian.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Jul 2011 #57
Nationalistic is trying to preserve language of your ancestors but a good and normal is forcing uniformity and sameness for a purpose of building one nation state - one language, one religion and one fuhrer.

Would that be like the way that Polonization was forced upon Jews, Ukrainians and others in the interbellum?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
22 Jul 2011 #58
The real nonsense is your striving to bend your prejudices to fit reality.

When running out of arguments, accuse your opponent of being racist, prejudiced or a Nazi - happens far too often here, Ironside, that I would take it serious. What I find kind of sad though is, that we obviously cannot even have different opinions without resorting to name calling. What purpose does this forum have, if that's not possible? I for one have come to the conclusion that quite a few nationalistic Poles and people of Polish descent on PF seem to have a distorted view of history. I understand that facts might be hard to accept sometimes (given what Poland had to go through over the centuries), but at some point of time you all have to face the truth about your past.

That's it for me on this topic.
porzeczka - | 102
22 Jul 2011 #59
Some basic information about Germanization in "Prussian Poland":

The 1872 legislation was aimed at diminishing the influence of the Polish Catholic hierarchy by eliminating clerical supervision over elementary schools. Additional law soon followed mandating that all teaching in Posen, West Prussia, Silesia, and East Prussia be conducted in German rather than in Polish, with exception of religious instruction.

Beginning in the 1890s, additional Germanizing measures, such as a new school policy aimed at eliminating religious instruction in Polish, were also implemented. In 1908, the Reichtag enacted laws to facilitate expropriation of Polish-owned properties and to restrict the use of Polish public assemblies.

The Germanization of the Volksschule was paralleled by the gradual Germanization of the entire class of higher civil servants. While there used to be numerous Poles among the higher civil servants, as well as in the officer corps, they have slowly all but disappeared. [ . . . ]

These fragments are from "A German Voice of Opposition to Germanization (1914)". Apparently, some Germans understood that the Germanization of Poles was futile.

Tell you what though - spend some time learning about the II RP educational system

I suggest you start with the issue of Polish and Ukrainian education in L'viv around the turn of the century. Might open your eyes a bit.

What publications would you recommend?

I've found several (Polish) sources online which make it clear that the parents were actively involved in this.

Post links or at least titles and authors.

Would that be like the way that Polonization was forced upon Jews, Ukrainians and others in the interbellum?

People who diminish the wrongs of Germanization, shouldn't speak against Polonization
Bzibzioh
22 Jul 2011 #60
Poles, on the whole, passively accepted the de jure annexation of the lands.

Of all the nonsense you write about Polish history - this particular one is the most hilarious :)

People who diminish the wrongs of Germanization, shouldn't speak against Polonization

Excellent point!!


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