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Czech and Polish character in World War two


Marek11111 9 | 808
29 Aug 2012 #31
English royal family is German and they were the supporters of Nazi by financing Hitler to power and that is why England sign partition of Czech
Harry
29 Aug 2012 #32
it is against history.

Really? Can you tell me about any treaty between the UK and Czechoslovakia which existed in 1938?

Britain government in 1938 was friendly to Germany and Hitler.

I do look forward to hear you justify that one and reading your sources.
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
29 Aug 2012 #33
I do look forward to hear you justify that one and reading your sources.

I am sorry sir, I haven`t used no sources till now, I just say what common Czechs know about there history of country.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
29 Aug 2012 #34
, I just say what common Czechs know about there history of country.

Ah, Western Betrayal. Common to both Czechs and Poles, they were systematically brainwashed with this.
Harry
29 Aug 2012 #35
First by the Nazis and then by the Soviets.

But I suppose that if for 50 years every book anybody can read says "Britain was responsible", it does take a bit of time for everybody to learn what really happened.
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
29 Aug 2012 #36
Ah, Western Betrayal. Common to both Czechs and Poles, they were systematically brainwashed with this.

=Harry]First by the Nazis and then by the Soviets.[/quote]

Dear forum memebrs you are wrong but I do not want carry this discusion now. I need more time, so ekscuse me.
Harry
29 Aug 2012 #37
Dear forum memebrs you are wrong but I do not want carry this discusion now. I need more time, so ekscuse me.

Fair enough. But here's a poster the Nazis put up all round Poland:
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
29 Aug 2012 #38
Of course you understand, Frantisek, that nobody else on PF will agree with us?

Excuse me madam but I do not know PF meaning. What is it? But thank you for being agreed with me.

Fair enough. But here's a poster the Nazis put up all round Poland:

Chamberlain sick man on the right I see?
Harry
29 Aug 2012 #39
Chamberlain sick man on the right I see?

Chamberlain being the man on the right, although I fail to see why you call him 'sick'.
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
29 Aug 2012 #40
Well, they choose to be enemy of Poland.

Dear sir, do not blame this on Cesko only. I realize you talk the Zaolší conflict. Well, it was normal in this times, right? In 1919 Czechs entered Zaolzie as it was strategic for Cesko. In 1919 Poles entered East territory of Belarus, Ukraine and Lithanioa because it was strategic for Poland. In 1938 Germany entered Austria and in 1939 Cechoslovakia because it was there startegy. In 1938 Poland entered Zaolší . Everybody entered somebody territory. Norm, didn`t it?

But Poland should be more wise than it was in 1938=1939 . Forget past arguments was Poland`s strategy but Polish elite did not see it properly. If Poland coperated with Czechoslovakia against Germany, there will be no war but even it was, Poles and Czechs will repel the enemy with his great losses. We could won together but seperately we had no chances. Do not blame us on that we were enemies of Poland, it was from Polish side also that Poles stayed enemies of Czechs. What pity!

Regarding the losses of Czechoslovak population you forgot to substract the more than 3 million German speaking Bohemians and Moravians that were driven out of their country or killed after May 1945. Since the Munich agreement was declared null and void they were proper Czechoslovak citizens and should be treated as such.

Excuse me sir but Czechs think this Sudeten peoples were traitors, 5 kolumn, right? They did not want to live in Ceskoslovensko, but desired change border treates of Versaille and live in Germany. So they finally lived in Germany after World War Two. Is it OK? They have what they wanted.
Ironside 51 | 12,441
30 Aug 2012 #41
If Poland coperated with Czechoslovakia against Germany,

My point is that Czechoslovakia didn't wanted cooperate with Poland.

n 1919 Poles entered East territory of Belarus, Ukraine and Lithanioa because it was strategic for Poland.

Also because it was territory of the Polish state!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
30 Aug 2012 #42
Also because it was territory of the Polish state!

According to who?
legend 3 | 659
30 Aug 2012 #43
The Czech can be seen as cowardly or smart depending how you want to see it.

They were smart because they suffered less loses and their cities werent ruined to the ground.
They were cowardly because they raised their hands in the air.

Hitler did not like Slavs or Jews. He saw some Poles as German and Czechs two have a significant portion of German.
That might be a reason why they were spared.

I heard that Hitler wanted to offer peace to Poland, he also wanted Danzig and that area. I find it unfair for the Germans to surround and get rid of Polands access to the Baltic Sea.

However, he also did not like Slavs and wanted Lebensraum.
Ozi Dan 26 | 566
30 Aug 2012 #44
Or about the Polish navy doing a runner before the war started.

It's Groundhog Day!

The entire Polish Navy? I thought it was just 3 Polish Destroyers? Ah, now I remember - the Peking Plan.

To refresh your memory, this was a scheme devised by HMG to remove these ships from the Baltic to go to Britain. The Poles agreed, presumably, amongst other things, in anticipation of having to discharge an obligation under Art 1 of the Treaty you and I know so well. In passing, these Destroyers served under the Royal Navy for the duration of the war (I think one was sunk in battle).

Would you be so kind as to tell me how many of the RN's ships steamed to Poland's aid at or before the commencement of hostilities? Just numbers, if you please - no need for any explanations.

By that logic Poland chose to be an enemy of both Germany and the USSR.

If we use such logic, then Poland deserved it.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Ah, Western Betrayal. Common to both Czechs and Poles, they were systematically brainwashed with this.

This is an excellent example of argument by innuendo, and I applaud your courage in setting yourself up for correction as an example to show the forum how some posters may be disabused of their mischievous comments.

But I suppose that if for 50 years every book anybody can read says "Britain was responsible", it does take a bit of time for everybody to learn what really happened.

I'm confused here Haz. You're saying that for the last 50 years all books that say "Britain was responsible" were essentially wrong, and that everyone will learn what really happened given time, it flows that you purport to know what really happened (presumably from your own source of books), but how can anyone believe you when you get something so simple like the Peking Plan so horribly wrong in terms of what actually happened?

It's like the time when you were going to give us the actual invitation of HMG to the Free Poles to the Victory Day celebrations but came back with an itinerary of all things, or like the time you said that the Polish Eastern border was somewhat Sikorski's doing (even though he was dead when it happened), or like the time when I asked you to provide Court judgments to back up your claims and you cut and pasted some blogs, or like the time when you actually cited a judgment but the findings of same actually contradicted your claims...

Honestly, how can anyone believe your claim that we'll all know what really happened when it seems you don't actually know what happened yourself?
FlaglessPole 4 | 655
30 Aug 2012 #45
what a great post by Ozi Dan, where is the 'like' button when you need it :)
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
30 Aug 2012 #46
Also because it was territory of the Polish state!

Dear sir, Czech territory in Poland was a lot larger then Polish territory in Bohemia. When we look in map we see that Czech was Breslau (Wrocław), Opole, Bytom and another towns in Silesia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdom_of_Bohemia_during_the_Hussite_Wars.jpg

My point is that Czechoslovakia didn't wanted cooperate with Poland.

Ceškoslovensko President Edvard Beneš tryed to settle disputes in 1938 but Polish did not accept.

I do look forward to hear you justify that one

From Wiki:
"Because the state of Czechoslovakia was not invited to the conference, it felt betrayed by United Kingdom and France, so Czechs and Slovaks call the Munich Agreement the Munich Dictate (Czech: Mnichovský diktát; Slovak: Mníchovský diktát). The phrase Munich Betrayal (Czech: Mnichovská zrada; Slovak: Mníchovská zrada) is also used because the military alliance Czechoslovakia had with France and United Kingdom was not honoured. Today the document is typically referred to simply as the Munich Pact (Mnichovská dohoda)."

the UK has never agreed to do anything.

Oh, no, sir, it did. It agreed to destroy independent country as Ceškoslovensko. Shoudl you not read more of Munich Agreement?

Hitler had sincere discussion with Czamberlain and told about his plans to destroy. Czamberlain agreed to it and he new that Sudetenland is only begining.

From Wiki
"Upon being told of this Hitler responded "Does this mean that the Allies have agreed with Prague's approval to the transfer of the Sudetenland to Germany?", Chamberlain responded "Precisely", to which Hitler responded by shaking his head, saying that the Allied offer was insignificant and told Chamberlain that he wanted Czechoslovakia to be completely dissolved and its territories redistributed to Germany, Poland, and Hungary, and told Chamberlain to take it or leave it.[16] Chamberlain was shaken by this statement."

I call Czamberlain sick. For reason can you see?
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #47
Excuse me sir but Czechs think this Sudeten peoples were traitors, 5 kolumn, right? They did not want to live in Ceskoslovensko, but desired change border treates of Versaille and live in Germany. So they finally lived in Germany after World War Two. Is it OK? They have what they wanted.

So, all of them wanted that? Are you really sure about this statement? You say all Sudeten Germans, even the children were guilty of treason? What about Sudenten German Social Democrats like Wenzel Jaksch who fiercly fought against National Socialism, escaped to Great Britain and were forbidden to return to their home country after 1945 and furthermore were dispossed by Czechoslovak authorities?

Come on pal, Sudeten Germans were Czechoslovakian citizens, and guilt is something individual and can't be imposed on a group! This means after WW2 Czechoslovak authorities should have looked for the Nazis among Sudeten Germans, there were plenty of them, and leave the others alone, instead of imposing a collective guilt on them. This just leaves the bitter aftertaste that Czechs just wanted to get rid of an inconvenient minority. This is something the Polish state never did with Germans in their territory by the way, imposing a collective guilt on them. Polish authorites just told Germans: "Due to the Potsdam Agreement the German-Polish border was shifted to the rivers Oder and Neisse and all Germans citizens have to move westwards.". Czech authorites told Sudeten Germans: "You all are guilty of treason, we take your property, deprive you of all human rights and transport you to Germany.". Czechoslovak authorites transported their own citizens to another country after stealing all of their possessions, this is what happened!

Besides that, who asked the Sudeten Germans in November 1918 if they wanted to be a part of Czechoslovakia in the first place? How can expect loyality from people that were treated like strangers in their country in spite of the fact many of them had ancestors that lived in Bohemia and Moravia for more than 700 years?
OP Frantisek 1 | 20
30 Aug 2012 #48
Mr Funky, you are greatly right what you say. I agree with you, collective oppression is alwys bad thing. I just said about that what many Czechs believe. I can not change it in this moment.
Harry
30 Aug 2012 #49
It's Groundhog Day!

It is indeed: Danny Boy is back with another of his lie-and-run attacks.

The entire Polish Navy?

Looking forward to you quoting the post in which I say the entire Polish navy.

this was a scheme devised by HMG to remove these ships from the Baltic to go to Britain.

Nice to see you repeating that claim yet again, perhaps one day you'll actually give us something to support that claim. I've heard that the Polish navy actually proposed the plan so that their ships could escort convoys to Gdynia but I've not heard it from any sources as reliable as the ones you keep providing us with.

Would you be so kind as to tell me how many of the RN's ships steamed to Poland's aid at or before the commencement of hostilities?

Off the top of my head, the submarines of 2nd flotilla (including the former HMAS boat that was sunk by friendly fire) but here you go, knock yourself out: naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3909-04RN.htm

You're saying that for the last 50 years

No, but do feel free to lie about what I say. Always amusing to see you failing to be able to argue with what I do say and so arguing with what I don't say.

the time when you were going to give us the actual invitation of HMG to the Free Poles to the Victory Day celebrations

Do feel free to quote a post in which I said I'd do that, or just be exposed yet again as a liar.

he time you said that the Polish Eastern border was somewhat Sikorski's doing

As above, feel free to quote a post in which I said I'd do that, or just be exposed yet again as a liar. I said that he was the first world leader to propose Poland's current western borders.

Honestly

You? Honest? ROFL!
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #50
Facts were made in 1945 and this can't be changed anyway. The ironic thing is that the average Sudeten German (respectively their descendants in Germany and Austria) now have a higher standard of living as the average Czech.

They were a real blessing for Germany. Well educated, good working morale, good entrepreneurial spirit. They came to Germany as have-nots but managed to become anew very soon. More than 2.000 medium-sized companies in Germany were founded by Sudeten Germans.

Dear sir, Czech territory in Poland was a lot larger then Polish territory in Bohemia. When we look in map we see that Czech was Breslau (Wrocław), Opole, Bytom and another towns in Silesia.

Dear Frantisek,

just a question, because I am curios. Does is play a role in present Czech history discurses that the Czech Lands were part of the Holy Roman Empire and that the Czech Lands from the Middle Ages until 1945 were bi-national (Czechs, Germans) if not tri-national (Czechs, Germans, Jews) by population?
Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
30 Aug 2012 #51
Czechoslovak authorites transported their own citizens to another country

Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this happened following the agreements made by the big three: Russia, Unites States and Britain in Yalta and Potsdam? At least, the expulsion of the German population from Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the WWII was done on the basis of those agreements.

Besides that, who asked the Sudeten Germans in November 1918 if they wanted to be a part of Czechoslovakia in the first place? How can expect loyality from people that were treated like strangers in their country in spite of the fact many of them had ancestors that lived in Bohemia and Moravia for more than 700 years?

You mean the ethnic principle had to be applied in Czechoslovakia in 1918? Then almost half of the historic territory of the Kingdom of Bohemia could vote to become part of Germany rather then becoming part of Czechoslovakia. Notice that this territory had always belonged to the Kingdom of Bohemia since its very beginnnig in the Middle Ages, and the Kingdom retained its borders intact, even during the times of the Habsburg Empire. By the way, the Duchy of Cieszyn had been a separate administrative unity until 1918, when it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, but not part of the Kingdom of Bohemia.
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #52
What you write is correct. I stated in my post that there is a slight but important difference in the treatment of Germans by the Polish and Czechoslovakian government in the aftermath of WW2. The Polish government didn't impose a collective guilt on the Germans that were expelled unlike the Czechoslovakian government did with Sudeten Germans.

Then almost half of the historic territory of the Kingdom of Bohemia could vote to become part of Germany rather then becoming part of Czechoslovakia.

You are right here, too. During WW1 the future President of the first Czechoslovak Republic Tomas Masaryk, when negotiating with French, British and American officials about the future borders of Czechoslovakia, stated several times that it is impossible to divide the Czech lands at the German-Czech language border. He asked the important question what would be more fair: "3 million Germans under Czech rule oder 6.5 million Czechs under German or German-Austrian rule?".

So after WW1 Sudeten Germans were not asked about their future. I hope you understand this caused resentment and bitterness among Sudeten Germans. There were several demonstrations for self-determination among Sudeten Germans around 1918/1919 that were violently dispersed by shooting at them by the Czechoslovak army.

The borders of the Czech lands didn't really changed for almost a millenium (except the fact that Silesia got lost), this is correct, but the ethnic mix-up of the Czech Lands was a bi-national one - Czech and German. And this fact was not taken account of when Czechoslovakia was founded, which alienated Bohemian and Moravian Germans even more. There lived more Germans than Slovakians in the CSR until 1938.

As a Pole you are probably in favor of the fact, that Upper Silesia got divided into a Polish and a German part in 1923 after the plebiscite I guess? Please note that Upper Silesia also never was divided before.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148
30 Aug 2012 #53
Polish-Czech interwar conflict was a stupid tit for that. That's generally how it is seen now in Poland and I think Czech perspective is not much different. The funniest thing are english clowns using Zaolzie conflict to smear Poles with ****, as "allied with nazis", "cooperated with nazis", "joined nazi invasion" etc. And the same "fierce defenders of Czechs" jump on the same Czechs when they say the obvious truth that they were fec.ed up by Britiain in 1938 :)))

But Poland should be more wise than it was in 1938=1939

Sure but both side were unwise. We should learn from past mistakes. If **** hit the fan again, French, English and all will not give a damn as usual. EU and NATO is falling down, we should create a regional alliance and forget about relaying on either "west" or "east".

The Polish government didn't impose a collective guilt on the Germans that were expelled unlike the Czechoslovakian government did with Sudeten Germans.

Did it have any practical meaning ?
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #54
Polish-Czech interwar conflict was a stupid tit for that.

Sorry, but this is exactly what happened, in this point Harry is right!

In 1938 Poland allied Nazi-Germany and fascist Hungary in order to destroy a democratic state. At least this is how it looked to the outside world. And this is one of the reasons why Poland was out of allies in September 1939 and Nazi-Germany and the USSR could infest Poland and scarf it.

I know many of you will hate me now but this is my opinion!
Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
30 Aug 2012 #55
In September 1939, Poland was allied to Britain and France, as far as I know.

Obviously, the Polish annexation of Zaolzie as well as the Hungarian action to grab part of Slovakia in 1938 cannot be justified and was clearly a political mistake; there's no doubt about it. But I wonder why, when stressing the role of Poland and Hungary in shaping the fate of Czechoslovakia, you dare not mention the role of either Britain or France who both came to sign a pact in Munich with Herr Hitler, a treaty on Czechoslovakia to which Czechoslovakia was not even invited? What was Britain and France up to in that place? To drink a cup of the superb English tea that Chamberlain got from his aunt for his birthday?
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #56
Did it have any practical meaning ?

Practically all of them found themselves without any possessions in what is now Germany and Austria. But humans do not live on practical things only, otherwise we would be like animals. There also is a symbolic sphere that is important for humans.

So for some it makes a big difference if some people kick you out of your country take all of your possessions and say "This is because you are a traitor!" or if people come kick you out of your country, take all your possessions and say "We are doing this because according to the Potsdam agreement all your belongings will be confiscated and you will be transferred west of the rivers Oder and Neisse".

Chamberlain just didn't want to go to war when it was pretty obvious that war is inevitable. Poland made a mistake by making the impression it would ally Germany and Hungary. The Brits and French made the mistake because they gave Hitler anything he wanted. They should have stopped Hitler in 1935 when he breached the Treaty of Versailles by letting German army marching into the Rhineland.

This also brought the fatal message to the German people that democrats are just weak people who talk the talk but do not walk the walk. The allies denied the German democratic governments from 1919 to 1933 anything that they willingly gave the Nazis after 1933 because they feared to go to war with them.
Harry
30 Aug 2012 #57
Sorry, but this is exactly what happened, in this point Harry is right!

In 1938 Poland allied Nazi-Germany and fascist Hungary in order to destroy a democratic state.

Sorry but I would not say that Poland 'allied' with Germany. Poland most certainly joined the Nazis in their invasion of Czechoslovakia but I'm not sure that we can conclude that the two nations were actually working together.

What was Britain and France up to in that place? To drink a cup of the superb English tea that Chamberlain got from his aunt for his birthday?

I'd assume that they were either trying to prevent war or to delay it. The British ruling class in the 1930s had been much affected by the slaughter of their brothers and sons in the carnage of the WWI trenches: they saw war as something to be avoided. The Polish ruling class, having not needed to fight during WWI and having experienced only minor wars, saw war as something to relish, as evidenced by their boasts such as 'Berlin in a week' and 'Poland wants war with Germany' and their bullying of neighbouring nations. As for the French, they were treaty bound to attack Poland after Poland joined the Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia, so I suppose it is no surprise that they actually signed a treaty with Poland instead.
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
30 Aug 2012 #58
Sorry but I would not say that Poland 'allied' with Germany. Poland most certainly joined the Nazis in their invasion of Czechoslovakia but I'm not sure that we can conclude that the two nations were actually working together.

Please do not put every word I wrote on the gold scale. I am at work and along the way I have to please my boss, otherwise he fires me, so sometimes I am bit distracted because I also have other things to do besides writing about Central European history! ;-)
Palivec - | 379
30 Aug 2012 #59
Czechoslovakia never had a chance since the Czechs tried to pay it back to the Germans after 1918 (and the Germans never accepted the new state). Sure, Czechoslovakia was a democratic state, but the country never became a second Switzerland. Just one example: the glass industry around Gablonz/Jablonec nad Nisou was world market leader and firmly in den hands of the Sudete Germans in the 1920s. What did the Czechoslovak government? They established a second centre in the Czech heartland to weaken their own, German- owned companies!

This state was an accident waiting to happen...
Harry
30 Aug 2012 #60
Please do not put every word I wrote on the gold scale.

OK; it wasn't really you that I addressed that comment to anyway. It's just that if I hadn't pointed out that I have never said that Poland allied with the Nazis, somebody would at some point no doubt try to use this thread to claim that I had said it.


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