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Casimir the Great (Kazimierz Wielki) started anti-Semitism?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 May 2010 #1
Unintentionally, as with many things in history, Kazimierz Wielki (the only Polish monarch to be called 'the great') planted the seeds of anti-Semitism by granting Jews (whose financial acumen he valued highly) extensive privileges. He and his successors effectively gave Jews the right to live a life of their own, regulated only by their own Judaic laws and not bound by general Polish law. They even had their own separate judiciary. (I don't know whether this is true or not, but I have heard or read that the last Jew boiled in oil (one of the penalties the Jewish court could impose) was as late as the mid-19th century.) This self-imposed apartheid, the shtetls and of course the high financial position of the Jewish (there was also the very large ‘biedota żydowska’) incited envy on the part of the indigenous population. So although Casimir had Jewish advisers and a Jewish lover and was by no means anti-Semitic himself, he probably contributed to what would eventually come to be known as anti-Semitism.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
17 May 2010 #2
Envy has existed for much longer than anti-Semitism!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
17 May 2010 #3
Jesus Chist give up the whole Jewish thing already! If there is going be another Jewish thread on this forum, i think I will be bothered visiting anymore.
vetala - | 382
17 May 2010 #4
Casimir the Great was a smart, smart man who knew that the only way of preventing blood libel was making it punishable by death, so that nobody would get any funny ideas.
Miguel Colombia - | 351
17 May 2010 #5
If there is going be another Jewish thread on this forum, i think I will be bothered visiting anymore.

True man. There are more Jew-related threads on this forum than on any other forum I have been to LOL
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #6
Jew boiled in oil (one of the penalties the Jewish court could impose)

Even an obvious indication such as "an eye for an eye" was already interpreted as "a fine that must be paid off for the sake of an eye inujry compensation", amongst Rabbinical community a couple of centuries before diaspora-and subsequently any presence of Jews within Poland. So I can assure you "getting boiled in the oil" is not something one could ever use as an instrument to brand Jews.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
17 May 2010 #7
It is a telling sign when there are a whole plethora of threads devoted to anti-Semitism but the thread where I asked about what is in the Polish interest was virtually ignored. He granted rights to Jews as a Pole. This is part of Poland's nobility past.
yehudi 1 | 432
17 May 2010 #8
He and his successors effectively gave Jews the right to live a life of their own, regulated only by their own Judaic laws

It's not as if everyone had one situation and the Jews had another one. In medieval times there was no such thing as a "regular Pole" and there was not one body of law that all were equally bound to except the Jews. People were either nobles, clergy, burgers, peasants... or Jews. We were a socio/religious/economic class. And each class had it's legal privileges and/or burdens. So there were privileges for Jews but there were severe limitations too. Jews didn't own land and neither did peasants. Jews had their own courts and so did the clergy.

So I don't think our "privileges" created anti-semitism. Anti-Jewish feeling was an ingrained part of European Christian culture and it needed no help from King Casimir.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2010 #9
I'm starting to think Polonius is Yehudis or Maregeas alt hell bent on creating fuss on these forums.
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #10
I agree. There is no plausible pretexts to hold animosity towards a specific folk. That is to say no action or inaction from any individuals, including Casmir the Great for instance, must result into such ill-feelings about a group of people.

I'm starting to think Polonius is Yehudis or Maregeas alt hell bent on creating fuss on these forums.

I am afraid but this, as you remarked, squable is, in accordance with history and the ongoing circumstances on the earth, one of the hugest issues in mankind's bygone causing many disgracful historical events so far.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2010 #11
Yadda yadda, the fact is there's a guy or several people who using sockpuppet accounts start topics about Jews all the f*cking time and its getting tiresome.

There's barely 15.000 Jews in Poland, us Poles dont really care about Jews much so why the f*ck do people like Polonius and other sockpuppets feel the need to obsessively discuss the topic on forums about Poland?
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544
17 May 2010 #12
It seems that Jew related threads outnumber the ones about immigration into the UK! And THAT says A LOT! :)
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
17 May 2010 #13
Stop with this 'anti-semitism' nonsense...This is the Jewish phrase for controlling dialogue on anything relating to 'Jewish'.

This said, the post makes a point...When Kazimir in power?

The modern 'Jewish problem' started when the Sjem, or 'House of Lords' of the Polish-Lithuanian foundation allowed sczhlata to give Jews special permits to distill liquor, collect taxes, and basically abuse Slavic peasants.

Then what happened?...Along with this came a backstab of the Ukies who wished to have more autonomy (Ukies had fought battles loyally for Polish cousins)...Ukies said 'No way', Chmielnicki lead a rebellion, Swedes and Russians moved in, then no more Polish-Lithuanian federation.

Ultimately, Jews were taken under Russian wing, Russians didn't want them or they could not assimilate, and you had Pale of Settlement, Bolsheviks, WWI, Hitler, WWII.

All of 'Jewish problem' stem from greed of sczhlata, and from Jews being put in position as middlemen.

Lastly, tension between Hazari (Jews) and Slavs has been going on since breakup of Khazaria.
vetala - | 382
17 May 2010 #14
why the f*ck do people like Polonius and other sockpuppets feel the need to obsessively discuss the topic on forums about Poland?

I'm wondering about this too. Ever since I started writing on this forum I've had three nightmares with Jews in them. These threads are driving me insane!
Pinching Pete - | 558
17 May 2010 #15
Swedes and Russians moved in, then no more Polish-Lithuanian federation.

What time frame are you talking about here?
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
17 May 2010 #16
I believe after 1648...Correct me if I'm wrong.

Polonius makes good point with 'self imposed apartheid'...It's just that, for some reason, Poles allowed this situation to take place right inside their own house, so to speak.
yehudi 1 | 432
17 May 2010 #17
the fact is there's a guy or several people who using sockpuppet accounts start topics about Jews

I find it odd too that there are so many threads about Jews. But I swear I'm not polonius or anyone else. I have only this one account and I don't start threads. When I see a comment about Jews or Israel, I react. You, on the other hand, Sokrates write more about Jews than anyone else. If you don't care, why do you have so much to say?
z_darius 14 | 3,969
17 May 2010 #18
planted the seeds of anti-Semitism by granting Jews (whose financial acumen he valued highly) extensive privileges.

I dunno about whether that was the reason for anti-semitism but I know that Jews were granted extraordinary privileges a few decades before that, by Boleslaus the Pious.

What is remarkable with anti-semitism is that the source of it is always looked for outside Jews themselves. Are there no reasons for anti-semitism withing the Jews themselves? None?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2010 #19
I find it odd too that there are so many threads about Jews. But I swear I'm not polonius or anyone else.

They're not Poles either, whatever our personal opinions Jews, Israel etc is in the bum end of our priorities list, there's no Jews in Poland and Israel is on the other bloody hemisphere.

You, on the other hand, Sokrates write more about Jews than anyone else.

Yeah i get a negative boner about a lot of things concerned with Jews but even i noticed there's baiting happening here.

If you don't care, why do you have so much to say?

Because i got into discussions, i care when it influences me or Poland and thats that.
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #20
There's barely 15.000 Jews in Poland

I did a lil search and I hunted up that by late 2006 some 25,000 Jews were over there in Poland. Anyways it is not lonlily a matter of Jews. You, as Poles, should take care of every single hint of intolerance within your society towards other people. And of course in a more general aspect it is not only you who are ethically obliged to do so, but the entire human societies are respectively responsible too.

Jews were granted extraordinary privileges a few decades before that, by Boleslaus the Pious.

Let me make an example. Suppose I am an owner of a swell hotel in your twon and one day your mayor comes to me and privileges me however my new extra-rights would seem unfair and aggravating to you. So which one of us you should loathe due to this aggravation?

Are there no reasons for anti-semitism withing the Jews themselves? None?

Maybe you should tell us?

is on the other bloody hemisphere.

Sorry I know it is splitting hair but are not they both on the same-Northern bloody hemisphere?

Yeah i get a negative boner

Well dont you get so! :) We should know how to deal with different situations and bad circumstances should not lead us into worse things. ;)

Because i got into discussions, i care when it influences me or Poland and thats that.

I think every one appreciates your feelings and worries about your home. I assure you reality is never ever to be distorted or concealed. Ceratinly the bulk of Polish people hold such feelings towards the others, as beautiful as their extra-beautiful country. :)
z_darius 14 | 3,969
17 May 2010 #21
privileges me however my new extra-rights would seem unfair and aggravating to you. So which one of us you should loathe due to this aggravation?

I wonder why you picked the nick you did if you can't understand uncomplicated posts.
I merely corrected a statement as to when Jews were given extraordinary privileges in Poland.
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #22
Honestly your last line made me come to think that you might be trying to convey some unsavory feelings about them by stressing "extraordinary priviliges". Anyways I hope you would correct your previous question as well.
z_darius 14 | 3,969
17 May 2010 #23
While other European countries hunted, killed and/or expelled Jews Poland gave them all kinds of rights. Thus privileges Jews were given in the 13th century in Poland, and consistently upheld until Poland lost its independence were indeed extraordinary. Some of the privileges actually put Jews over and above vast majority of Poles at the time.
vetala - | 382
17 May 2010 #24
Vast majority of Poles at the time were peasants and peasants back then had no nationality. It's like yehudi said - Jews were a class. Germans, Armenians, Tatars, Cossacks and other nationalities had "extraordinary priviliges" too, why focus on Jews?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
17 May 2010 #25
Ever read the Bible, Pol3? You should, I think KW would pale into insignificance then. One valid point is that, when you hand across power and then let that group accrue more, it's very difficult to claw it back and redress the balance without consternation.
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #26
While other European countries hunted, killed and/or expelled Jews Poland gave them all kinds of rights.

No one is gonna reject the unjust essence of some social phenomenons in the medieval Europe. But I still wonder if these priviliges could cause hatred toward any groups, so why did not Polish people find abhorance about kingships that were allegedly given to privilige particular classes during their sovereign? Since to my knowledge Poles did not get ride of royalism until it was once and for always overthrown by the Nazi German. Please correct if I am wrong. By the way you still didnt correct your last question. :(

Germans, Armenians, Tatars, Cossacks and other nationalities had "extraordinary priviliges

That is it all about.
vetala - | 382
17 May 2010 #27
Poles did not get ride of royalism until it was once and for always overthrown by the Nazi German.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Poland didn't have kings since it was partitioned and even before that for many centuries kings were elected and had little power. It was the Szlachta who ruled in Poland.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 May 2010 #28
Casimir the Great (Kazimierz Wielki) started anti-Semitism?

No, he didn't. Stupidity did. Stupidity of stupid ppl who don't think any further than their nose is long, as we say in NL.

Besides, could there be a ban imposed on Jew - Pole threads and threads about racism or anti semitism? At least temporary? The atmosphere would become better instantly without all those pseudo "intellectual" explanations by some why the Jew is bad for Poland. Would that be pssbl, pls?

Edit: and for morons like Sokidonkey: I have never posted under a different nick. I'm not like you. And since when is some intelligent rebukal of your hysterically demented nonsense causing a fuss?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Ever since I started writing on this forum I've had three nightmares with Jews in them. These threads are driving me insane!

Don't get nightmares, sweetie :) It's not worth it. The ppl who keep starting it over and over again are little men and above all keyboard warriors who are brave behind the screen, safely at home. I have to admit that all this dabble about Jews and Poles and anti semitism and racism are annoying the heck out of me, but I will try and fight racist BS wherever I can as I think it's just wrong, plain wrong. Take care, you hear? Don't get nightmares again, it's not worth it :)

>^..^<

M-G (will tell a bedtime story:) )
Linguist 1 | 37
17 May 2010 #29
Poland didn't have kings since it was partitioned and even before that for many centuries kings were elected and had little power.

I was given to assume there was a royal government until 1939. Well I had no idea that Polish people lost their independence by 1795 and it was no sooner than 1918 that a republican government began to rule over there.
z_darius 14 | 3,969
17 May 2010 #30
Vast majority of Poles at the time were peasants and peasants back then had no nationality.

Formally the Statute of Kalisz referred to Jews and Christians and for an obvious reason - anybody living on territories under Polish king's rule was subject to the law, not just those of Polish nationality.

However, I think there is sufficient grounds for questioning the blanket statement that peasants had no nationality at the time. Most those who lived on Polish territories were Poles, whether they were peasants or not, and whether the sense of nationhood was strong or not. Hence, when we discuss Mongol invasion of Poland we talk about Poles being killed by Mongols. When Gallus Anonimus writes about The Defense of Glogow he does not write about "classes" of People. He clearly writes about people's nationalities, and he does at leats 160 years before The Staute of Kalisz was written up:

Niemcy nakre;cali kusze re;czne, Polacy zas' machiny z kuszami; Niemcy wypuszczali strza?y, a Polacy strza?y i inne pociski; Niemcy zataczali proce z kamieniami, a Polacy kamienie m?yn'skie i silnie zaostrzone pale.

etc.

Just to clarify that among those fighting were Polish peasants, Gall's Chronicle is helpful again:

"do walki z wrogiem stanęło nie tylko rycerstwo, ale cała ludność. Zawzięci chłopi znosili drobniejsze oddziały niemieckie, nękali wroga po lasach i bagnach".

You may also look into this fragment in Latin
zswsucha.iap.pl/STREFA_N/WiLeHi/lektury/kronika/0120.htm
by the same author, and notice the frequent use of the word "Poloni".

When in the beginning of the 13 century the Teutonic order started the policy of settling the newly arrived peasants in the areas they occupied, the settlers were not just any peasants but peasants of German ethnicity. Had there be no distinction between Polish or German peasants then why would have The Teutonic Order settled the lands with peasants coming from areas much farther from Prussia, rather then with peasants living in the vicinity? Was it the peasant's nationality that was considered.

But I still wonder if these priviliges could cause hatred toward any groups

Any sense of unfairness, real or perceived, will cause some form of hatred, particularly when those not considered native to the land find themselves in a better, and sometimes even equal, position as the natives. Nothing changed since those days. Just look at the the Poles in UK.

By the way you still didnt correct your last question. :(

Correct a question? As opposed to answers, I thought questions can hardly be incorrect.


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