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Why is the Battle of Grunwald celebrated more than the Battle of Lubiszewo?



PolskiMoc 4 | 325    
4 Jul 2011  #1

the Battle of Lubiszewo was really a much more impressive Polish victory. Poland did not have Lithuania also involved. Poles were massively outnumbedred by Germans.

Also the Battle of Lubiszewo happened in 1577 which to me is a better date than 1410 as it is a more recent date.

The Danzig (Gdańsk) army, led by the German commander Johann Winkelbruch (Hans Winckelbruch or Winckelburg von Kölln), was about 7,000-12,000 strong (including mercenaries, among them a Scottish regiment[3]), but with less than 1,000 cavalry. The Danzig army was utterly defeated by the army of Jan Zborowski (of about 2,000 men, half of them cavalry).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lubiszewo

Poles only had 88 killed, 100 wounded while Germans had 4,420 killed, 5,000 captured.

Which is one of the most impressive Polish battles fo all time along with Klushino.

That is a much better ratio. With alot fewer Poles dying & a much higher of Germans being slaughtered than in grunwald.

I guess Grunwald generally has more significance because it was a larger battle? Because Poles inflicted more damage? Such as how Poles did alot of Damage to the the Teutons in general

According to different sources, some 200 or 400 brothers of the Order were killed, including much of the Teutonic leadership - Grand Master Ulrich von Jungingen, Grand Marshal Friedrich von Wallenrode, Grand Komtur Kuno von Lichtenstein, Grand Treasurer Thomas von Merheim, Marshal of Supply Forces Albrecht von Schwartzburg, and ten of the komturs.[66] Markward von Salzbach, Komtur of Brandenburg (Ushakovo), and Heinrich Schaumburg, voigt of Sambia, were executed by order of Vytautas after the battle.[65] The bodies of von Jungingen and other high-ranking officials were transported to Marienburg Castle for burial on 19 July

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald


legend 3 | 671    
4 Jul 2011  #2

Didnt know about this particular battle.

Perhaps Grunwald is easier to pronounce than Lubiszewo (might be a slight reason).
gumishu 11 | 4,661    
4 Jul 2011  #3

Maybe the battle is not thought of as remarkable because it actually was a kind of civil war that the battle put an and to (actually it was Gdańsk/Danzig rebellion) - and well the overwhelming part of the Danzig forces were some kind of militia so even when the losses ratio is impressive you had perhaps plenty of such battles with ill trained and equiped peasant or burgher rebellions in the past
pawian 127 | 6,555    
4 Jul 2011  #4

the Battle of Lubiszewo was really a much more impressive Polish victory. Poland did not have Lithuania also involved. Poles were massively outnumbedred by Germans.

Also the Battle of Lubiszewo happened in 1577 which to me is a better date than 1410 as it is a more recent date.

Strange, I have never heard of this battle. It isn`t taught in Polish history classes. Thanks for info.

Which is one of the most impressive Polish battles fo all time along with Klushino.

Which is much more popular and known in Poland.
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
4 Jul 2011  #5

a much higher of Germans being slaughtered

1. Do you think that's good?
2. Do you realise it was more a civil conflict than a war between 'Poland' aad 'Germany' which existed in very different forms than we would recognise now?

3. Have you visited the site of either battle? Or Poland at all?
Palivec - | 381    
4 Jul 2011  #6

So, when Gdansk fought against Poland it was a German city, otherwise it was Polish? LOL! :D
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
4 Jul 2011  #7

The reason is due to that being a rebellion, by 1577 Poland was firmyl entrenched as an european superpower, Grunwald is where polish ascension to european power started however.

Strange, I have never heard of this battle. It isn`t taught in Polish history classes. Thanks for info.

Polish history passionate eh?
z_darius 14 | 3,975    
4 Jul 2011  #8

So, when Gdansk fought against Poland it was a German city, otherwise it was Polish? LOL! :D

It was also a free city, neither Polish nor German. Depends what dates you're looking at. While the first stronghold was established by Poles, the city was bounced back and forth over the last 1000 years. Most of the time it enjoyed a degree of independence.
Palivec - | 381    
4 Jul 2011  #9

It was also a free city, neither Polish nor German.

You know this, and I know this, but obviously not the starter of this thread. ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
4 Jul 2011  #10

It was also a free city

Nope, it was a vassaldom.

Depends what dates you're looking at.

Gdańsk was a "free city" only during the 1919-39 period, otherwise it was a polish vassaldom with far reaching authonomy.

it could not conduct foreign policy for example.

You know this, and I know this, but obviously not the starter of this thread. ;)

At the time it was indeed a manner of civil war, OP is correct.
Semsem 17 | 26    
18 Jul 2011  #11

Wouldn't it also be since Grunwald halted the Tuetons, whom if had won would have probably continued and conquered Western Europe? At least...that's what I was taught, and I find it interesting how many times Poland saved the rest of Europe, but don't even get an honorable mention in history classes in most nations.
Wroclaw 45 | 5,409    
18 Jul 2011  #12

Why is the Battle of Grunwald celebrated more than the Battle of Lubiszewo?

it was fought again this weekend. it'll probably be on youtube.
Palivec - | 381    
18 Jul 2011  #13

Wouldn't it also be since Grunwald halted the Tuetons, whom if had won would have probably continued and conquered Western Europe? At least...that's what I was taught, and I find it interesting how many times Poland saved the rest of Europe, but don't even get an honorable mention in history classes in most nations.

Maybe you should forget your Commie education and read some modern books instead? Because... both is bollocks.
Semsem 17 | 26    
24 Jul 2011  #14

How do you figure both is "bollocks" (an English term which I don't really know exactly)?

The Battle of Grunwald killed off the grand master of the time, and many of the other heads of the order. They were unable to truly recover from then, and thus slowly declined as history shows us. The Knights, had they been victorious, would have most likely spread and continued to conquer other vast parts (if not all) of Western Europe.

And, with regards to Education, it is NOT taught in ANY schools in America or Canada. It might be taught in some nations of Europe, but I'd be willing to bet that it isn't taught in that many.

Or again, am I wrong?
pawian 127 | 6,555    
24 Jul 2011  #15

Or again, am I wrong?

No, you aren`t. You only mistook Knights with bolsheviks, but that was a slight mistake, nothing serious.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
24 Jul 2011  #16

Maybe you should forget your Commie education and read some modern books instead? Because... both is bollocks.

As always an anti-polish troll aint you Palivec?
Palivec - | 381    
24 Jul 2011  #17

Claiming that the Teutonic Order would have conquered Western Europe and Poland therefore saved it is as stupid as claiming France would have conquered Eastern Europe and the HRE saved it.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
24 Jul 2011  #18

If you knew anything about history you'd know that TO was the richest and most powerfull state in Europe, its standing army was 12.000 strong, no country, not even HRE could boast such a force, Poland was the only kingdom with enough and modern enough troops to provide equal opposition so yeah TO would have conquered everything all the way to Moscow, even their weak proxies the Livonians were capable of providing a serious threat (Lake Peipus) so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.
Nathan 18 | 1,373    
24 Jul 2011  #19

so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.

And what were the intentions of the Teutons? In what way RP was better than them? Both were religious fanatics anyhow and for their pseudo-Christianity erazed ancient cultures in the Eastern regions just like the Conquistadors in the South America. If there was no Grunwald and the two just kept pissing each other off, we might have enjoyed the spots of the preserved antiquity today. I think this was one of the worst sides of Christianity, if it can be called as such.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
24 Jul 2011  #20

And what were the intentions of the Teutons

Conquer, enslave, exterminate which they did, Pomorania lost more than 50% of its population, more than 90% of its urban population, they were more methodical than Chyngis Khan.

In what way RP was better than them?

RP did not exterminate Ukraine.

and for their pseudo-Christianity erazed ancient cultures in the Eastern regions just like the Conquistadors in the South America.

What culture did Poland erase? Ukraine was a barbaric wasteland, depopulated in the wake of the Mongol invasions and domestic infighting, virtually the only city in the entire Ukraine was Kiev.

If there was no Grunwald and the two just kept pissing each other off, we might have enjoyed the spots of the preserved antiquity today. I think this was one of the worst sides of Christianity, if it can be called as such.

If there was no Grunwald the Teutons would eventually conquer Lithuania, besiege Poland from three sides and destroy it, then they would have another go at Novgorod, this time with and an army ten or twenty times larger and do what they always did, burn the city and kill off all its inhabitants (they did it to Poles in Gdańsk and in many other cities), then they would do the sam to Kiev and then to Moscow.

Having exterminated all the urban hubs of Ruthenia they'd be masters of the entire Eastern Europe as far as Moscow.

IF you read a bit of history of Poland and its satelites as well as of Livonia you'd know that Teutonic Order was unusual in the fact that it exterminated as well as conquered.
Nathan 18 | 1,373    
25 Jul 2011  #21

Conquer, enslave, exterminate which they did

In 1230, following the Golden Bull of Rimini, Grand Master Hermann von Salza and Duke Konrad I of Masovia launched the Prussian Crusade, a joint invasion of Prussia intended to Christianise the Baltic Old Prussians.

Was the duke Konrad a Teuton?

RP did not exterminate Ukraine

It never could, but it ruined with its "Christenizing" brutalities the cultures of the Baltic tribes.

barbaric wasteland

It is how I see your brain sometimes. I just want to add nuclear to it.

If there was no Grunwald the Teutons would eventually conquer Lithuania, besiege Poland from three sides and destroy it, then they would have another go at Novgorod, this time with and an army ten or twenty times larger and do what they always did, burn the city and kill off all its inhabitants (they did it to Poles in Gdańsk and in many other cities), then they would do the sam to Kiev and then to Moscow.

It is funny, but instead of them that what exacly happened after Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth won the battle. Sokrates, it doesn't matter what language you speak, if one is a religious fanatic with brutal mindset the consequences for the region would be the same. And they were. There was the siege of Kyiv, Moscow, destruction of the Lithuanian ancient culture, burning of cities and extermination of people, latinization of the "barbaric wastelands" as a diligent Polish student of history like you would call it.

IF you read a bit of history of Poland

I read history as a whole written by as much as possible non-interested in the outcome people. You do the opposite and your knowledge is highly skewed and boring by presenting the same one-sided approach.
Palivec - | 381    
25 Jul 2011  #22

If you knew anything about history you'd know that TO was the richest and most powerfull state in Europe, its standing army was 12.000 strong, no country, not even HRE could boast such a force, Poland was the only kingdom with enough and modern enough troops to provide equal opposition so yeah TO would have conquered everything all the way to Moscow, even their weak proxies the Livonians were capable of providing a serious threat (Lake Peipus) so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.

LOL! Really.
The knights of the TO were crusaders who acted on behalf of the pope and HRE against heathens. Poles were no heathens, but Lithuanians were, that's why they fought against them. The TO just turned against Poland when Lithuania and Poland were united and the TO faced a far more powerful enemy in a good strategic position which wanted to retake former Polish land, which the TO occupied after the knights helped Poland, but Poland didn't pay the bills.

The story is a bit more complicated than "evil proto-Nazis want to destroy peaceful Poland".
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
25 Jul 2011  #23

The knights of the TO were crusaders who acted on behalf of the pope and HRE against heathens.

Novgorodians were Christian, the same goes for Poles, your point being?

The TO just turned against Poland when Lithuania and Poland were united and the TO faced a far more powerful enemy in a good strategic position which wanted to retake former Polish land

TO was fighting wars of agression against Poland for over a century by then.

The story is a bit more complicated than "evil proto-Nazis want to destroy peaceful Poland".

Nope its actually just that, Teutonic Knights came and started exterminating Christian and Pagan alike to carve out a country for themselves.
Eliseusz    
3 Aug 2014  #24

The battle of grunwald is more important to us poles because of its symbolism. We polish are not looking at numbers or importance, but view this titanic clash at Grunwald as the beginning of the century long struggle against.the Germanic people. While poles and germans were fighting long before this, this was the first major desisive clash between the conflicting worlds of us Slavs and Germanic west. Poland's long fight for freedom is summed up in this one great battle. This represents the beginning of the.polish fight for.freedom against.German imperialism.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
4 Aug 2014  #25

Well elaborated.

just few days ago i spoke to one friend of mine about battle of Grunwald. We both agree that battle was decisive for the survivor of Slavic west and by analogy for survivor of Slavic south. It goes hand in hand. Crucial battles of Poles vs. Germanics and Turks were decisive for survivor of Serbs and, crucial Serbian battles vs. Turks and Germanics were decisive for survivor of Poles.
Palivec - | 381    
4 Aug 2014  #26

We polish are not looking at numbers or importance, but view this titanic clash at Grunwald as the beginning of the century long struggle against.the Germanic people.

It will be a glorious day when Poland finally arrives in the 21th century. But it still may take a while.
Monitor 14 | 1,831    
4 Aug 2014  #27

Henryk Sienkiewicz popularized battle of Grunwald in his book "Krzyżacy". That's the main reason for it's popularity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Knights_of_the_Cross
Marysienka 1 | 195    
4 Aug 2014  #28

I would say battle was popular by then, Matejko's painting and Kraszewski's book already existed. And all that was written, painted while - Poland didn't exist on the map and was partially under German and Austrian Occupation and also 500 years anniversary was approaching.

Back to the point I think battle was very symbolic but also very real turning point at our history.
Szalawa 4 | 254    
4 Aug 2014  #29

very real turning point at our history.

Yes I agree and lets not forget it was T.O. that invaded Lithuania and Poland
This battle really brought the Polish and Lithuanian realms alot closer together too.



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