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Battle of Grunwald 1410 The biggest medieval battle. Germans smashed.



ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
22 Jan 2010  #121

Oh and Kaiser and Hitler are long gone too...

So are the documents and books, you could have seen them burning on the streets of German in 1930’s.


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
22 Jan 2010  #122

Yeah...they took special care to burn every evidence of the Serbs partaking in the Battle of Grunwald 1410....must have been something jewish!
ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
22 Jan 2010  #123

must have been something jewish!

LOL
Although you make fun you know exactly what I mean. Occupying power wound not allow anything that would cause Polish insurrection and nationalism and desire for a free country, it was simply not in their best interest. For over a century of oppression and hell bent on stamping out Polish History, culture, language and customs, eradicating Polish national identity best you could a lot of things are gone and lost to history. You can make fun all you want but deep insight you know it to be true.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
22 Jan 2010  #124

Occupying power wound not allow anything that would cause Polish insurrection and nationalism and desire for a free country

And that has to do with the Serbs exactly what?
Did the occupying powers scratch out the Poles from the Battle? Now that would understandable (if stupid) but I doubt that.
The facts of this historical event was never up for scratching or denying...

Even your Sienkiewicz made a living out of writing books denigrating the Germans and the Teutonic Knights...and he lived in partition Poland. Doesn't look like overt opression to me!

You for sure want to be the Serbs to be there....for that you point to a romanticizing fiction author and even blame Prussia, the Kaiser and even Hitler.

But this is no evidence. Other polish myth and history has survived very well, and as I said...it's about Serbs.
ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
22 Jan 2010  #125

You for sure want to be the Serbs to be there....for that you point to a romanticizing fiction author and even blame Prussia, the Kaiser and even Hitler.

Let me put it to you this way, chance of them not being there are none existent period. If you read my first post you would have noticed that each Knight was obligated to recruit soldiers from his farm holdings to the cause. Zawisz Czarny is one of the Knights mentioned by Długosz and we know from other historical documents he had some land holdings by the Danube. Who do you supposed lived there? And who were the locals that worked his fields that eventually were recruited by him. Even if that was the only extend of the Serbian involvement in the battle, it should be enough to shut you up.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
22 Jan 2010  #126

it should be enough to shut you up.

Sources?

(That's the only thing to shut me up...ask the others) ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
22 Jan 2010  #127

I wonder what the influence of that battle nowadays would be? Hm...Lemme think...Zero, nada, zilch? Right answer :)

Wrong answer, of course you almost never give a right answer being an idiot and all:)

So lets see, thanks to this battle Poland survived and went on to create one of the greatest reneissance states in Europe, a great deal of our heritage is from that period.

Thanks to that battle Slavic nations were not overrun by Germans (Teutonic Knights did have every intention to skullf*ck Ruthenia and Russia proper and these states were massively weaker then Poland).

In the end thanks to this battle Poland survived as a major European power all the way to the battle of Vienna where Poles saved Germans from becoming Turkish bytches for God knows how many generations.

So not only the Polish victory saved Poland, 90% of Slavic population and allowed us to flourish for another 250~ years but in the long run it saved Austria and Germany as well :)

Every major medieval battle triggered a chain of events that shaped history untill this very day, only an utter ignoramus like you claims these past events had no influence on our everyday life today.

Let me put it to you this way, chance of them not being there are none existent period

I'm sorry but the only infantry on the Polish side were heavy city regiments from Poland proper, Lithuania was too far and its infantry useless due to technological backwardness and the lighter units were guarding against Hungary.

So if Zawisza had a retinue at Grunwald it would have been mounted and more then likely Polish, also he did not have these villages before Grunwald, he purchased them afterwards.

Well its true, bloody twisted but true, France wanted to see your lot destroyed, Spain and UK didnt care and the strongest German state aka Austria was in the process of being b*tchslapped, no Poland = no help and no help = you wearing a turban :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
23 Jan 2010  #128

you wearing a turban

*imagines turban instead of beloved helmet*

*faints*

Exiled 2 | 425    
23 Jan 2010  #129

Even Germans gave so much importance to the battle of Grunwald(which was known as battle of Tannenberg) that they insisted that their victory in 1914 against Russians should be called victory in the battle of Tannenberg although it took place in a field a little far from Tannenberg.

One of teuton knights who perished in 1410 battle was called Hindenburg and the Hindenburg who fought the battle in 1914 was his straight descendant so he had every reason to take revenge.

When Hindenburg died in 1934,Germans raised a huge memorial in Tannenebrg where he was buried with all honours.The memorial was later completely dissolved by the red army and its components used to build the Kulturpalast in Warsaw.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #130

But what exactly is the relevance of that 600 year old battle today

Given that if it did not happen or ended up differently it would alter the history of much of Europe up to this very day, pretty big?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

In no source bar Wiki did the allies have more then 60-70k troops, quoting a source thats downright false is all you can do?

There was not a single Zaporozhyan Cossack under Vienna, there was no Lithuanian army under Vienna yet your source claims both, sorry buddy you'll have to do better.

I'll give you a tip, Germans kept shooting it out with Turks for several hours with no effect, then Poles broke them up in a series of charges under 30 minutes, now go read books before you quote wiki.

who gives a sh*t?

Thats different, just because uneducated morons like you dont care doesnt mean it doesnt matter objectively:)
MareGaea 29 | 2,770    
23 Jan 2010  #131

Thats different, just because uneducated morons like you dont care doesnt mean it doesnt matter objectively:)

There is a difference between uneducated morons like me that like to keep things unbiased and uneducated morons like you that will do everything to show the glory and grace of their motherland. The latter is a bit sick.

The Ottomans were stopped in the battle of Vienna, not in the battle of Grunwald. It was one of the reasons why the Habsburgs could rise to such a power in Europe. While I'm not claiming the article to be true ( I didn't read it), I just wanted to rebuke your claim that it was the 1st battle of Tannenberg that stopped the Ottomans. It didn't. It stopped the Teutonic knights in their invasion of Polish lands. However, in the long run it didn't make that much difference as PL may have been independent for 250 odd years, it was yet the Holy Roman Empire that still decided what happened in Europe. And PL was not so independent after all, they remained a sort of vassal of that empire for some 100 odd years.

>^..^<

M-G (it would have made impact if a shift in the balance of power had taken place, but that didn't, so de facto it was an incident)
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #132

that it was the 1st battle of Tannenberg that stopped the Ottomans.

It was a Polish army that stopped the Ottomans, if Poland lost at Grunwald it would get invaded by Hungary, Moscow and Teutonic Knights and would get partitioned 400 years earlier which means there wouldnt be anyone to help Austria since German states were small and divided.

So if the battle of Grunwald was lost by Poles Austria and all of Germany would get f*cked 3 centuries later.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
23 Jan 2010  #133

When Hindenburg died in 1934,Germans raised a huge memorial in Tannenebrg where he was buried with all honours.The memorial was later completely dissolved by the red army and its components used to build the Kulturpalast in Warsaw.

That's sick and petty! :(
Nathan 18 | 1,373    
23 Jan 2010  #134

There was not a single Zaporozhyan Cossack under Vienna, there was no Lithuanian army under Vienna yet your source claims both, sorry buddy you'll have to do better.

The same old BS of sole Polish saviors of Europe. Yes, there were Zaporozhyan Cossacks and Lithuanian army which both fought along many other nations. Without them you would end up like you did 60 years earlier in 1620 at Cecora, where the Turks crushed you like a pine-apple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_%C5%A2u%C5%A3ora_(1620)

On 29 September, Commonwealth forces had broken through Ottoman ranks with tabor wagon trains and started their retreat. However, after Graziani bribed some magnates, units of private troops begun to flee and some mercenary cavalry panicked and ran away. This was a prelude on things to come. Consecutive attacks during the retreat (such as the violent one on 3 October) were repelled, only for troops to start disintegrating as soon as soldiers caught sight of the Dniester and the Polish border.

During another large assault on the 6 October, most of the magnates and nobles started to flee north, leaving infantry and camp. Thus, they sealed the fate of the whole expedition: most of the Polish troops got killed or were captured.

Stick to the point, Socki, it is about a battle of Grunwald and don't tramp Ukrainian fields with a foul mouth, rigging the history around :()
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #135

The same old BS of sole Polish saviors of Europe. Yes, there were Zaporozhyan Cossacks and Lithuanian army which both fought along many other nations. Without them you would end up like you did 60 years earlier in 1620 at Cecora, where the Turks crushed you like a pine-apple.

Read with understanding Nathan, we've been talking about the Battle of Vienna, not at Cecora and no there havent been any Zaporozhyan Cossacks, we have a complete list of all Polish units that took part, both cavalry and infantry, take a peek at Wikipedia and around the web, no Cossacks under Vienna sorry :)

Stick to the point, Socki, it is about a battle of Grunwald and don't tramp Ukrainian fields with a foul mouth, rigging the history around :()

I'm not rigging anything its You who cant read whats written, by the way Nathan you realise the only wars Ukraine ever won was when you were a part of the Polish army (you were soldiers never commanders) and that you have never won an actuall war on your own?:)
Nathan 18 | 1,373    
23 Jan 2010  #136

I'm not rigging anything its You who cant read whats written, by the way Nathan you realise the only wars Ukraine ever won was when you were a part of the Polish army (you were soldiers never commanders) and that you have never won an actuall war on your own?:)

Battle of Batoh (1652)
Battle of Yellow Waters (1648)
Battle of Korsun
Battle of Pylavtsi:
[quote]The Poles also made good use of their time. In order to hold off the rebels they engaged Khmelnytsky in desultory negotiations and, at the same time, mobilized 32,000 noblemen and 8000 German mercenaries (interesting ;). As their forces, outfitted in the glittering finery that the szlachta so loved, gathered near Lviv, an observer remarked that the Poles were going to war not with iron but with gold and silver (no surprise here). The new Polish army was lead by three magnates: the indolent, luxury-loving Dominik Zaslwski, the erudite Latinist Mikolaj Ostorog, and the 19-year-old Aleksander Koniecpolski. Khmelnytsky sarcastically referred to them as peryna (the feather down bed), latyna (the Latinist), and dytyna (the child). On 2 September, the opposing armies met at Pylavtsi. During the battle, the Polish commanders lost their nerve and fled and, as the news spread, the rest of the army followed suit. Within hours this once splendid force was completely decimated by the Cossacks and their Tatar allies. 40,000 army fled like a herd into the wilderness. Quite impressive, Socki ;)

After the battle at Lviv and taking Vysokij Zamok (High Castle), only kind (stupid actually) heart of Ukrainian commander stopped complete annihilation of your kingdom as such. I bet you will find many other battles, mon cheri Socki, not to be proud of.
Ironside 46 | 8,395    
23 Jan 2010  #137

After the battle

its about Grunwald not some stupid peasant's and robbers!

By the way in the last election showed that fascist and banderowcy have no real support in Ukraine:) except a few freaks like yourself!:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #138

During the battle, the Polish commanders lost their nerve and fled and, as the news spread, the rest of the army followed suit. Within hours this once splendid force was completely decimated by the Cossacks and their Tatar allies. 40,000 army fled like a herd into the wilderness.

Come on Nathan you're editing wikipedia again? Just like last time when you edited the numbers so the Polish army got 10 times bigger then it was in reality?

We owned your peasant little country, whatever civilisation you inherited, we brought it, we defeated you in every single war, if it makes you feel better you can quote wikipedia articles that you edited 10 minutes ago, knock yourself out :)

At least when i discuss with Germans i can point to a time when my country was a true European power, what did your country achieve? You're reduced to editing wiki to have any achievement at all:)))

Also Nathan why dont you post how your little uprising ended for you? How we invaded Ukraine with the Crown army, how we massacred you little peasants under Beresteczeko killing 70.000 of your peasant army losing only 850 soldiers and putting you back in your place for good?:)

You little peasants feared Poland so much after all this that you ran to Russia but even in Russia you were just peasants and second class citizens :)))
ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
23 Jan 2010  #139

also he did not have these villages before Grunwald, he purchased them afterwards.

Zwracam honor, I’ll take it back, just double checked the facts and You're Right. As I have said I’m not a historian so I might be bit rusty here or there or confused of certain facts, however it’s still hard for me to believe that there were no Serbs at all. Taking into account that any Monarchs’ of that time before mounting any kind of military campaign would seek the services of professional soldiers or mercenaries from abroad. One such campaign was mounted by Zygmunt Luksemburczyk just few years earlier against Serbia and Bosnia where Zawisza Czarny was a mercenary himself in the service of Zygmunt, it was advertised as a campaign against Turks but in reality it was Zygmunts’ revenge against Serbs and Bosniaks because they rejected him, that was in 1408. Even earlier than that, in 1396 there were many Polish knights at the battle of Nikopolis and at the service of Zygmunt against Turks.

Now; at the time of Grunwald Zygmunt Luksemburczyk was favoring Teutonic Knights, he even declared war on Poland which he later retracted after their faith was sealed at Grunwald. Considering that Zygmunts campaign was fresh on many of the Serbs mind I would imagine them volunteering their services as mercenaries in droves. Even Teutons had in their service many Knights from all over Western Europe participating in that battle, recruited to their cause by advertising as campaign against unbelievers which was the standard practice at the time as was the practice of mercenaries fighting for your cause. Having mercenaries at your service was a standard of the day, just because they are not mentioned it’s no proof of them not being there at all.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
23 Jan 2010  #140

Taking into account that any Monarchs’ of that time before mounting any kind of military campaign would seek the services of professional soldiers or mercenaries from abroad.

Well...there might even have been Germans on the polish side! ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #142

however it’s still hard for me to believe that there were no Serbs at all

Like i said there could be some random nobles, but there were more Germans on the Polish side then Serbs.

Well...there might even have been Germans on the polish side! ;)

At least several hundred knights, just like Teutonic Knights had several hundred Polish knights, back then you didnt fight for nationality but kings, if a German had lands and felt obliged to the Polish king he'd fight with Poles, if a Polish knight was a vassal of the Grand Master he'd side with Teutonic Knights.

Its nothing new really, in 100 years war French soldiers were on both sides as well.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
23 Jan 2010  #143

At least several hundred knights, just like Teutonic Knights had several hundred Polish knights, back then you didnt fight for nationality but kings, if a German had lands and felt obliged to the Polish king he'd fight with Poles, if a Polish knight was a vassal of the Grand Master he'd side with Teutonic Knights.

Yeah...that is something we to often forget talking about such history with our nationstate-mindset..
Nathan 18 | 1,373    
23 Jan 2010  #144

You're reduced to editing wiki to have any achievement at all:)))

Never edited Wiki, have some decency at least.

under Beresteczeko

Berestechko battle where you bribed the Tatars to flee the battlefield, kidnapping our commander-in-chief. Cossacks and Ukrainian peasants showed great discipline, even in time of panic, where some were holding Polish army as the others retreated. It was a victory of Polish-Lithuanian army, I don't deny it. But as in any battle, most of which you lost, you bribed Tatars to try to win. Winged jokes ;)

Sorry to the rest of you for not-related comments; this was my last one.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
23 Jan 2010  #145

Berestechko battle where you bribed the Tatars to flee the battlefield

Sorry to break your bubble but Tatars fled the field after we killed their commander in chief and slaughtered over 7000 of their best mounted regiment, no one paid them a dime, Tatars were bribed by Poland a few years earlier at Zborów, at Beresteczko they fled so fast they left their camp behind.

kidnapping our commander-in-chief

By the time your "commander" was kidnapped 90% of your cavalry was dead, all your artillery was gone and you were reduced to a disorganised rabble waiting to be slaughtered inside your camp, which we did:)

Cossacks and Ukrainian peasants showed great discipline, even in time of panic, where some were holding Polish army as the others retreated.

I'm sorry what? Your entire army was routed and mass panic broke out once the Poles breached the camp, sorry but once your defences collapsed there was very little bravery and quite a lot of panic.

But as in any battle, most of which you lost, you bribed Tatars to try to win.

Learn history buddy, no one bribed anyone, we just put you down as we did in all the previous uprisings, as we did in 1919, as we did in Akcja Wisła, you're a typical Ukrainian, always the loudmouths and when it came to blows you just lost, every single time :)

Poland 850 dead - Ukraine - 70.000 dead 15.000 captured.

:))))
pawian 127 | 6,555    
24 Jan 2010  #146

Poland 850 dead - Ukraine - 70.000 dead 15.000 captured.

Two brotherly nations fighting each other is no fun at all.

How we invaded Ukraine with the Crown army, how we massacred you little peasants under Beresteczeko killing 70.000 of your peasant army losing only 850 soldiers and putting you back in your place for good?:)

What Poles gained at Beresteczko, they lost at the next battle at Batoh. This time it was Poles who panicked and tried to flee the battlefield. Eventually, cossacks, on Chmielnicki`s orders, executed Polish prisoners in revenge for Beresteczko, producing 8000 dead Poles.

The Battle of Batoh destroyed the best Crown units. Although Poland managed to rebuild her army soon after the battle, the loss of the most experienced troops resulted in temporary weakness in Ukraine. Defeat of the Poles contributed to the wars to come with Russia, which in turn resulted in the 'deluge' of the country by Swedish armies.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
24 Jan 2010  #147

Two brotherly nations fighting each other is no fun at all.

Not so "brotherly" at all what I could gather...
jasinski 10 | 62    
24 Jan 2010  #148

poles kicked the crap out of her neighbors for centuries. heavily outnumbered at times. no wonder that the russians(muscovites novgorod whatever) in its false claim to be king of the slavs wanted to wipe out polands history. clowns.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
24 Jan 2010  #149

Two brotherly nations fighting each other is no fun at all.

No of course not but baiting Nathan is fun, personally i think it was all pretty stupid.

Eventually, cossacks, on Chmielnicki`s orders, executed Polish prisoners in revenge for Beresteczko, producing 8000 dead Poles.

Not really no, you have to remember that Poland was a pretty big country, the army was re-created soon after, the main problem here was our own king, Jan Kazimierz, there's good indications that he wanted to destroy the standing army in order to pave the way for the Polish throne to become hereditary.

Politically and strategically it was a blow but not a big one while Beresteczek was catastrophic for Ukraine in that it destroyed the bulk of their trained forces, Batoh was the last major victory, during wars with Muscovites they no longer could compete due to lack of experienced troops.

Not so "brotherly" at all what I could gather...

For quite a long time it was brotherly, eventually Cossacks started demanding more, Poles ready to give less and the whole thing fell apart.
Sasha 2 | 1,083    
24 Jan 2010  #150

Two brotherly nations fighting each other is no fun at all.

I would only love to know what are your criteria to define two fraternal nations? :)




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