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Association of Lovers of Lwów and Southeastern Kresy


Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
3 Apr 2016 #1
I found a good article (except for one repeated spelling error) about Polish nostalgia for the Kresy, and the resurgence in interest for Stalin's ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity in the region:

The word [Kresy] conjures loss and trauma for the families forcibly displaced from the area, deep and sometimes still raging resentments, and a nostalgia - real and sometimes imagined - for a place of peaceful co-existence before the homogeneity enforced in post-World War II settlements.

csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2016/0403/Decades-on-some-Poles-still-yearn-for-lands-and-songs-of-lost-Kresy

How do we find the Association of Lovers of Lwów and Southeastern Kresy so we can join?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
3 Apr 2016 #2
Polish nostalgia for the Kresy

Out of interest: how widespread is that nostalgia really? Most people from that era are either dead or elderly, and if the Polish youth is at least a little bit like the one across the border in Germany, they shouldn't care too much anymore. Despite: why was Erika Steinbach and the Federation of Expellees such a hot topic in Poland for example, when some folks in Poland (and the US...) seem to be hopping on the same bandwagon?
Ironside 50 | 10,922
3 Apr 2016 #3
why was Erika Steinbach

Maybe because she was a fraud?

Out of interest: how widespread is that nostalgia really?

Nostalgia? I would say that people are coming to the realization that these lands had been stolen from them.

and the Federation of Expellees such a hot topic in Poland for example

Are they?

be hopping on the same bandwagon?

Well, I fail to see a symmetry here. You are in the time loop banging your head again the same wall time and time again. Do you enjoy it?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
3 Apr 2016 #4
Nostalgia? I would say that people are coming to the realization that these lands had been stolen from them.

Like the "recovered territories", then.

Can't imagine many people in Poland would be willing to return to the pre-WW2 state of affairs. L'viv is beautiful in the centre, but a hell of a dump in many other areas. The towns and villages in L'viv oblast aren't even worth discussing - nothing in Poland looks like that, and that's before you even consider many other areas.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
3 Apr 2016 #5
Maybe because she was a fraud?

Why? Because you say so?

Nostalgia?

That's the word Lwow Eagle used.

Are they?

They were in 2009/2010, and I remember very well how controversial (should I say, hated?) she was even on PF.

I fail to see a symmetry here. You are in the time loop...

Doesn't surprise me. You've been turning a blind eye to that topic ever since you joined Polish Forums. Could it be that you are in a time loop...? ;)

Like the "recovered territories",

Exactly.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
3 Apr 2016 #6
Exactly.

I didn't even mention the Jewish property.

Ironside, ever been to the Ukrainian lands that used to form part of Kresy? I have, and it's not a pretty sight. People are friendly to Polish speakers and there's no hostility there towards Poles, but if rich West Germany still hasn't managed to bring living standards up in the East to the same level as the West, what hope does relatively poor Poland have?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 Apr 2016 #7
Good god delph " Ukrainian lands that used to form part of Kresy? I have, and it's not a pretty sight. People are friendly to Polish speakers"

This is something that I agree with you, I am impressed with your effort to understand Poland and it's historical connections bravo.
Ironside 50 | 10,922
3 Apr 2016 #8
Why? Because you say so?

See, that is the reason you annoy me, you know noting about anything and you always presume some BS.
She wasn't/isn't an expellees herself nor were her parents or grandparents hence is a found presenting herself as an expellee. If you take her rumbling seriously then in that light I'm an expellee myself.

Do you get it now or do you need a freaking map?

They were in 2009/2010, and I remember very well how controversial

There was a controversy because she was promoting German's government project to build an institute that would promote German version of the story of so called expellees. In Addition it narrative focused only on Poland and Bohemia as alleged main culprits of expulsion and deaths of millions of Germans.

Coupled with almost complete ignorance of the German public as to the role and deeds of Germans in Poland during the war it is rightly considered a step that would generate enmity in the future. Do you have problem with that Ozzie? Can your romanticized and unrealistic view on Germans and Germany deal with that? Are you emotionally capable to see beyond your narrow vision?

Doesn't surprise me.

So make your case what is stopping you? Repeating the same sentence many times over doesn't count.
Make your argument on ethical, moral, political, practical, historical or utilitarian ground. Pick some or all of them and make your case. If you are unable to argue your case just can it for good this time. Coming here with an opinion you cannot defend makes you look like a village idiot and a pest.

Like the "recovered territories", then.

Why don't you bend over your left shoulder and plant a wet kiss on your fleshy cheek? After you preform that feat (don't forget to bring an evidence in the form of photo) came back here and I'll listen to you closely.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
3 Apr 2016 #9
This is something that I agree with you, I am impressed with your effort to understand Poland and it's historical connections bravo.

I haven't made enough trips there, but for example - I've visited Chyrów - it's a small town that used to have a very noted Jesuit school back in the II RP. Even if it became Poland tomorrow, it would take an astronomical amount of money just to get it to the level of a poor Polish town - roads aren't paved, there's no infrastructure, even the local churches are very poor (I visited the local Polish Catholic church and the Bishop of Sanok was in attendance!) - and the same story is repeated across the entire region.

We should encourage Ukraine to open the border as much as possible - put an end to huge bureaucratic requirements at the border, build many more border crossings and so on. There's a lot of things we can do - it just takes political will.

But really, the people are not hostile in the slightest. They might be very proud of Ukraine, but they aren't hostile.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 Apr 2016 #10
"There's a lot of things we can do - it just takes political will." One day maybe glad you took the time to explore and understand this part of Poland's history.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
3 Apr 2016 #11
Since you were whining about insults and stuff last time I confronted you, I won't do you the favor now and give you the kind of response that you would actually deserve.

She wasn't/isn't an expellees herself nor were her parents or grandparents hence is a found presenting herself as an expellee.

She presented herself as the representative of the expellees that had voted her into office. Her claim that Germany's attack on Poland was just a response to its mobilization was nonsense, and that's why she had to resign.

German version of the story of so called expellees

Here we go again ... you whinge about the Poles who lost their home because of Stalin, but don't care a bit that millions of Germans had to endure the same fate. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... the Germans started the war, bla bla bla ... I know. But not the people living in the countryside around Breslau, or the dock workers in Stettin, if you get my drift. Poland got somewhat "compensated" for the lost territory in the east, which was probably more than it could expect at the time. So just be happy that Stalin didn't decide to leave Germany untouched territory wise after the war, and stop dreaming of western Ukraine coming "heim ins Reich".

almost complete ignorance of the German public as to the role and deeds of Germans in Poland during the war

And this shows me that you have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about. You are still one of those meathead "Polish patriots" living in the past that show exactly the same ignorance that you keep blaming the Germans for.
Ironside 50 | 10,922
4 Apr 2016 #12
Since you

Here we go again.
Your opinion after your opinion about your opinion followed by your opinion. Are you even capable of making a coherent (not necessary compelling) logical argument with facts and references that would support your claims?

Nah, you rather tell me what I think and how I think and why I think wrong.
Bah, you know nothing about what I know and what I think! Furthermore its not I who is having problems with stringing up few sensible arguments together. Every time I ask for arguments your brain is going into some kind of the emotional meltdown. Are you snorting up stuff and hence your problems?

If you're unable to lift weights why would you posturing as if you could? All that grunting, screaming, rocking back and forth is a waste of time, you never deliver. Stop bothering me.

She presented herself as the representative of the expellees that had voted her into office.

She presented herself a daughter of expellees if not an expellee herself after that lie had been exposed. Then she was going from one blunder to another until finally she was forced to quit. To sum it up she was a fraud, a lair if you prefer.

the Germans started the war, bla bla bla ...

Don't you dare to go bla, bla on me! Started doesn't cut it and you should know that! I guess you are a typical ignoramus as well as majority of your German brethren, even more so as a proper Ozzie born.

And this shows me that you have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about

Really and how would you know, you have no clue yourself, you are in no position to tell. I guess that for an Ozzie boy the amount Germans know about history is staggering.

you whinge about the Poles who lost their home because of Stalin, but don't care a bit that millions of Germans had to endure the same fate

So? I expect that Australians or Canadians not to mention Germans lost many nights sleep over that issue. Get a grip and get real. Am I talking to a teenager or a senile dude?

So just be happy

Don't you dare to tell me what I should feel you pampered clueless person.

But not the people living in the countryside around Breslau, or the dock workers in Stettin

Well, they were lucky they get off cheap given circumstances and for one they deserved all that had befallen them and then some more.

Germany untouched territory

Aren't you happily ignorant of facts? Why it doesn't surprise me?

and stop dreaming

Educate yourself and keep your advice to yourself.
OP Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016 #13
No, I don't plagiarize. The word was used by authors Llana and Rębała as published by The Christian Science Monitor. Read much?

That's the word Lwow Eagle used.

I have been to Lwów, Ternopol, Kowel and other places across Stalin's border. I think the countryside in the Kresy is a beautiful sight, although I am not happy to see the desecrated Polish cemeteries used as cow pastures now. Why would Poland be obligated to industrialize these places any more than the forests near Białystok? The issue is: Can Poland increase the standard of living of the region's population? There is no requirement that Poland turn the region into Western Germany. The hope for the present population of Western Ukraine lies with Poland, not Ukraine'e corrupt government, which has proved time and time again that it is hostile to real political reform and anti-corruption efforts.

I have, and it's not a pretty sight...if rich West Germany still hasn't managed to bring living standards up in the East to the same level as the West, what hope does relatively poor Poland have?

Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
4 Apr 2016 #14
Polish nostalgia for the Kresy

Out of interest: how widespread is that nostalgia really?

I'd say it is waning. Even among older people, the Polish eastern borderlands is the thing of the past for the Poles just as the German eastern borderlands is a thing of the past for the Germans. It is other time, other people, a thing that belongs to history rather than to the present.
OP Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016 #15
The present is that "other people" from the Kresy are relocating to Poland to take jobs due to Poles working in the West of the E.U. They are remixing into Polish society and culture. Poles still sing Hej Sokoły at karaoke nights about leaving a girl in the green Ukraine. It is very much alive in the present.

It is other time, other people, a thing that belongs to history rather than to the present.

TheOther 5 | 3,711
4 Apr 2016 #16
It is other time, other people, a thing that belongs to history rather than to the present.

Thank you. That's what I would have expected.

Poles still sing Hej Sokoły at karaoke nights about leaving a girl in the green Ukraine.

That's probably more folklore than anything, don't you think? It's not like people singing about a girl in the Ukraine and at the same time thinking about how to bring these territories back under Polish control.
Ironside 50 | 10,922
4 Apr 2016 #17
I'd say it is waning.

Quite the opposite Ziemowit. People and I mean younger people are getting more and more interested in the stolen Polish lands. I would say that older and middle age people are the ones who are not interested in that subject all.

the Polish eastern borderlands is the thing of the past for the Poles just as the German eastern borderlands

Nah, I see it for what it is - a lack of self-confidence and a mental bondage. All that worked hand in glove with an argument that had been drummed into the heads of the populace in Poland during commie times that excused theft of Polish lands by claiming that the acquisition of Prussian lands was a compensation for the land that Soviets took. All that BS seems to be satisfying for people raised in the servitude.

It is other time, other people, a thing that belongs to history rather than to the present.

It is another thing that hasn't been dealt properly with in Poland. It needs to be addressed sooner or later.
OP Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016 #18
Exactly. Those educated under the communists don't know much about history, especially about the ethnic composition of pre-war Ukraine and what happened to the Ruthenians who rejected the novel Ukrainian ethnicity and political movement. Only recently has that history started to be published by post-communist social scientists. Hopefully, PiS will force out whatever remaining communists remain pushing the communist party line in the Polish universities. Eventually, the truth comes out.

[The]argument that had been drummed into the heads of the populace in Poland during commie times that excused theft of Polish lands

dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
4 Apr 2016 #19
"Those educated under the communists don't know much about history" I can second that, the commies stole my land in the east, murdered half my family sent the rest to Siberia , but my family is back in Poland so we have bought old German land in Silesia.

The Germans are welcome to have this back as long as I get our farms back in the East.
TAK1730 1 | 13
20 Nov 2017 #20
Merged:

Which regions in Poland did Kresowiaks settle the East from?



Which regions did the Polish settlers in Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania come from?
DominicB - | 2,709
21 Nov 2017 #21
@TAK1730

From all over, but disproportionately more from Mazovia than anywhere else. Also, a very large percentage of the Poles from those countries were actually Polonified locals.
TAK1730 1 | 13
21 Nov 2017 #22
@DominicB
So if someone came from Belarus, had a Belarusian surname, looked Belarusian, spoke Russian as a first language (not Polish) but was Roman Catholic, would they be ethnic Rusyns?
DominicB - | 2,709
21 Nov 2017 #23
@TAK1730

Not necessarily. And it would depend for what purpose, and the time period in question. The concept of ethnicity is a complicated one indeed in this part of the world, even today.
TAK1730 1 | 13
21 Nov 2017 #24
Let's say the early 20th Century and ethnicity-wise
DominicB - | 2,709
21 Nov 2017 #25
@TAK1730

It would depend on what the Tsarist, then later Polish, authorities recognized as your ethnicity for their purposes, and what the individual claimed as their ethnicity for their purposes. There was not necessarily agreement between them.

When you talk about ethnicity in modern Europe, it is generally in terms of membership in a recognized and long-established minority in a particular country according to national and international law. The main areas where it is or was applied are: right to stay in the country as a citizen, or being subject to being expelled (as was the case after WWII); repatriation; and special legal status in the particular country.

The individual in your post above may well consider themselves Polish and apply for repatriation to Poland. If he is able to prove to the Polish authorities that he fulfills the legal requirements to settle in Poland, or be issued what is called a Karta Polaka, which gives him special rights and privileges from the Polish government that other citizens of Belarus do not have.

I know that you are looking for a quick and simple way to determine someone's ethnicity in this part of the world. There are no such quick and simple ways except for seeing official documentation. Also, there is no single concept of ethnicity. There are several concepts, all of which are ad hoc, and all of which depend very much on the time period in question. The criteria for each purpose and each time period can vary enormously and conflict with each other.
TAK1730 1 | 13
21 Nov 2017 #26
I understand, they were allowed to return to Poland post-war however half of them stayed behind in their original village, even served in the Red Army during and after WW2.
DominicB - | 2,709
21 Nov 2017 #27
@TAK1730

Not only. I still have family members in Belarus who are part of the officially recognized Polish population there. That enables them to have certain rights and privileges, both within Belarus and within Poland, such as being free to cross the border and work in Poland, if they wish, and to return back to Belarus if they do. And to maintain their Polish language, customs and culture. This was all stipulated in the post-war treaties that fixed the current borders, which are still in force. Likewise, there is an analogous officially recognized Belarusan minority in Poland, with similar rights and privileges. Not every Pole in Belarus or every Belarusan in Poland is part of that officially recognized minority. They have to meet the strict criteria set out in the treaties.


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