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Polish aristocrats - would be better off if we had Polish magnate families?


David_18 68 | 982
20 Jul 2010  #1
What if the communists never hunted down the Polish nobles like Dogs. Would we have been better of with the rich Polish magnate families today economically/politically or not?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 Jul 2010  #2
You mean like the aristocrates treating their serfs as dogs?
And look at all aristocratic rebellions, the "Golden Freedom"....the magnates were selling out Poland every time they could.
In Western Europe - yes we did not have a Golden Freedom - selfish magnates paid with their heads. In Poland they got estates from the partitioning powers.
OP David_18 68 | 982
20 Jul 2010  #3
You mean like the aristocrates treating their serfs as dogs?

Well im talking about a Modern Polish aristocrat class. Like the ones existing in other European countries that didn't have some bloody communists behind their back...

Poland only got a middle class and a poor class. Why not having a Polish aristocrat class like it have been for the past 1000 years in Poland?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 Jul 2010  #4
Because in Poland the "schlachta" did not depend on your income. It depended on your often mystical adherence to a clan or a coat of arms.

You could have had for example one pig and a mud floor... but if you belonged to that particular clan, you were miles elevated from a decent hardworking middle-class citizen.

The Russians would still buy your vote and your magnate landlord would still despise you.
But you were sclachta - hence the fact almost every Pole is building his house with a pillar or two in front.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
20 Jul 2010  #5
What if the communists never hunted down the Polish nobles like Dogs. Would we have been better of with the rich Polish magnate families today economically/politically or not?

Than Poles would be the only people of its kind consisting entirely of nobles. Nation of noble peckerwoods (golodrantsi-aristokrati)...
king polkakamon - | 544
20 Jul 2010  #6
In these days it is much better to hide one's nobility as better as possible.
OP David_18 68 | 982
20 Jul 2010  #7
Than Poles would be the only people of its kind consisting entirely of nobles.

Common man you can do better then that...

That polish nobles would be some kinda majority is a pure myth. But HEy if that's what they are teaching you in Ruskie then so be it ;)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
20 Jul 2010  #8
That polish nobles would be some kinda majority is a pure myth. Bu

You, Poles, regard nobility in rather strange way
OP David_18 68 | 982
20 Jul 2010  #9
Blame our ancestors :D
Ironside 48 | 9,708
20 Jul 2010  #10
What if the communists never hunted down the Polish nobles like Dogs. Would we have been better of with the rich Polish magnate families today economically/politically or not?

of curse it would be better
plk123 8 | 4,150
20 Jul 2010  #11
What if the communists never hunted down the Polish nobles like Dogs. Would we have been better of with the rich Polish magnate families today economically/politically or not?

no
Ironside 48 | 9,708
20 Jul 2010  #12
The Russians would still buy your vote and your magnate landlord would still despise you.[/quote
Sure, as you would know something about it !
[quote=plk123]no

its simply pitiful, give yourself a break!

I-S(for pity sake )
plk123 8 | 4,150
20 Jul 2010  #13
how would it be better? who cares anyway..
OP David_18 68 | 982
20 Jul 2010  #14
how would it be better?

With their wealth they would be able to do aloot to Poland, and even on an international stage promote Poland.

And we wouldn't have thousands of mansions and palaces in ruin like we have right now...
Ironside 48 | 9,708
20 Jul 2010  #15
With their wealth

that minor thingy, first of all they would have had provided Poland with real elite !
plk123 8 | 4,150
20 Jul 2010  #16
And we wouldn't have thousands of mansions and palaces in ruin like we have right now...

that is not to any kiond of benefit to PL

With their wealth they would be able to do aloot to Poland, and even on an international stage promote Poland.

like what? PL can promote itself just fine.. nobles have nothing to do with it.. and that status means nothing anyway.. it's all show.. and who cares..
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
21 Jul 2010  #17
Poland only got a middle class and a poor class.

There is a jet-set class in PL now. Some people made extremely much money after 1990. E.g. people who bought a lot of cheap real estate 20 years ago.

Also some media owners. E.g. Zygmunt Solorz-Żak, repeatedly appearing on Forbes world's billionairs ranking, with an estimated net worth around EUR 1.5 billion.
OP David_18 68 | 982
21 Jul 2010  #18
that is not to any kiond of benefit to PL

Property tax!!! and it looks nicer ;)
Ironside 48 | 9,708
21 Jul 2010  #19
Property tax!!!

you are dumb, really ......elite is that what needed money are only measures -

Zygmunt Solorz-Żak, repeatedly appearing on Forbes world's billionairs ranking, with an estimated net worth around EUR 1.5 billion.

- money there where are the aims ?
plk123 8 | 4,150
21 Jul 2010  #20
Property tax!!! and it looks nicer ;)

that makes no real sense.. eventually someone will buy those properties and fix them up.. i thought about it at one point but the prices were way to high.. it wasn't worth it..
OP David_18 68 | 982
21 Jul 2010  #21
that makes no real sense.. eventually someone will buy those properties and fix them up..

Don't you understand that those properties were stolen by the communists from the poles?

Maybe it's time to give everything back? Without our Elite we are like a body without a head...
plk123 8 | 4,150
21 Jul 2010  #22
Without our Elite we are like a body without a head...

we're better off without the "elite"
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
21 Jul 2010  #23
And look at all aristocratic rebellions

What aristocratic rebellions?

the magnates were selling out Poland every time they could.

You mean when they funded Polands schools and universities or when they raised armies to defend her?

You could have had for example one pig and a mud floor... but if you belonged to that particular clan, you were miles elevated from a decent hardworking middle-class citizen.

Which is why they intermarried so much?

Refrain from talking about polish history mate you're a f*cking idiot.

we're better off without the "elite"

And so are you for that matter, Poland without its inteligentsia (which is not neccesarily the same as nobility) is a headless chicken.
plk123 8 | 4,150
21 Jul 2010  #24
You mean when they funded Polands schools and universities or when they raised armies to defend her?

when they sold it to the partitioners.. when they "sold" pl to the commies..

And so are you for that matter, Poland without its inteligentsia (which is not neccesarily the same as nobility) is a headless chicken.

intelligentsia is a completely different matter..
OP David_18 68 | 982
21 Jul 2010  #25
when they sold it to the partitioners.. when they "sold" pl to the commies..

No.. They just had 2 different point of view.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targowica_Confederation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Confederation
plk123 8 | 4,150
21 Jul 2010  #26
No.. They just had 2 different point of view.

and that was the problem right there.. one set wanted russian influence.. adn the others wanted more power for themselves.. either way, it wasn't good for PL in the end, was it now.. thus, PL is better off without them.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
21 Jul 2010  #27
ConstantineK:
You, Poles, regard nobility in rather strange way

Blame our ancestors :D

Neanderthal men?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
21 Jul 2010  #28
when they sold it to the partitioners.. when they "sold" pl to the commies..

Who sold Poland to partitioners? Are you talking about Targowica? Do you know how many members did Targowica have as opposed to how many members did Bar Confederation have? Seriously plk123 you're an utter complete troglodite when it comes to polish history, learn first write later.

Polish nobility by and large served Poland well and its supposed failiure is nothing but a communist myth, Poland fell from power because of nearly 20 years of constant destructive war it had to endure in XVII century.

Polish nobility later was keeping the flame of patriotism alight, the constitution, all the uprisigns, creating national elite during the positivistic work, all are fruits of labor by our nobility, people who more often then not risked their wealth, their lives and the future of their children for the country.

Before you mindlessly parrot communist myths again make even a small effort and try to learn something about the history of your own nation.

intelligentsia is a completely different matter..

Again content removed by moderator you'd know that polish inteligentsia takes its roots in mid XIX century when polish intellectuals started the positivist movement, the future elite of the nation was forged out of small time nobles, economic medium class etc, more then 80% of pre-war inteligntsia was of noble descent.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
21 Jul 2010  #29
Again content removed idiot you'd know that polish inteligentsia takes its roots in mid XIX century when polish intellectuals started the positivist movement, the future elite of the nation was forged out of small time nobles, economic medium class etc, more then 80% of pre-war inteligntsia was of noble descent.

How it is that you "forget" to mention the Golden Freedom? That any of the Commonwealth "nobles" could and did block any progress? Because even the smallest pig-raising schlachta could and did block all possible progress? In the pay of the magnates who were all in the pay of the partitioning powers?

That every time the new King had to be elected (bought in reality). That the nobles vehemently opposed regular taxes and a standing army?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
21 Jul 2010  #30
How it is that you "forget" to mention the Golden Freedom?

The Golden Freedom had only one con and that was the infamous "Liberum Veto" however vetoing things was rare and even rarer was it being taken into account, in theory any noble could veto, in practice it was done rarely since it often meant death sentence after the Sejm and if it was just any noble he'd likely be ignored anyway.

Veto breaking off each Sejm is just another communist myth that stuck i'm afriad.

That any of the Commonwealth "nobles" could and did block any progress

See above, in theory any noble could block it, in practice he could not.

In the pay of the magnates who were all in the pay of the partitioning powers?

Every countrys political elite had its share of traitors of the same magnitude, polish nobility however distinguished itself in that it had much more patriots, in fact polish nobles were the only ones who willingly gave away their priveliges in favor of other classes in the constitution.

That every time the new King had to be elected (bought in reality).

Not a single king in polish history was bought, not one.

That the nobles vehemently opposed regular taxes and a standing army?

That must be why in between 1654-67 (thats 13 years) Poland maintained a standing army of 50.000 bolstered by 10.000 mercenaries and 10.000 Lithuanians, because nobles vehemently opposed regular taxes!

Also polish armies were much much more expensive then Western ones due to being 80% cavalry so Poland maintains an army that'd cost as much as 100.000+ equivalent in Austria or France.

Yes plenty of nobles did stray from ideal citizens but the notion that Poland fell because of its nobles is nothing but a communist myth.

Polish nobility was for a very very long time the most enlightened, well educated and patriotic in Europe, its martial skills were for centuries the best in the world, the polish noble not only regularly defeated the best of Europe in defence of Poland but didnt hesitate to pay in money or blood.

Even when Poland fell from grace and the nation with it it was the nobles who revived the nations spirit, the nobles who came up with constitution and begun a work of healing and restoring the country that was un-f*cking-paralelled in the world.

In no country in the world outside Poland did nobility just get up off its arse and decided "this country is going down if we dont change, lets surrender our priveliged position and rebuild our country to our former glory together with citizens and peasants as equals."

That happened only in Poland, other countries needed another century to come up with something like that so polish nobility despite all its flaws is a thing to be proud of rather then spit at.


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