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60th anniversary of the Poznan uprising!


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3 Jul 2016  #31

'Poland to become an authoritarian theocracy'

That seems to be a natural prize for the service the RCC provided some time ago.
Wojtyła's pontificate, his later beatification and the canonization obviously are only a partial repayment for the service of bringing down Soviet Union.

La Stampa Vatican correspondent Giacomo Galazzi and journalist Ferruccio Pinotti wrote some time ago a book in which they shed some light on the July 1976 future Pope's visit to the United States. On that trip Wojtyła met the Polish-American Zbigniew Brzeziński, Security Advisor for then-President Jimmy Carter, who saw Poland as an element in the larger project of bring down the inconvenient Soviet empire.

Brzezinski does not confirm that there was a "secret plan" involving Wojtyła in bringing down the Soviet Empire, however the Soviets claim that JP2 had been elected with the help of the Americans who wanted to use him as a tool to further their political plans.

A pact between the Vatican and the White House against the soviet empire:

lastampa.it/2011/06/20/vaticaninsider/eng/reviews/a-pact-between-the-vatican-and-the-white-house-against-the-soviet-empire-X7Wlfunai9sTbcXdRfyQHI/pagina.html

Brzezinski's brainwave of harnessing religious zeal to beat communism had two extreme though opposite effects. The force of Christianity was a major factor in undermining Soviet communist domination of East Europe. Its lands turned around to embrace democratic change, a pro-Western orientation and a market economy in a still-evolving process.

concordatwatch.eu/topic-36281.834

Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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3 Jul 2016  #32

appalling behaviour

The appalling behaviour is that of obnoxious, aroagnt foreigners such as the PF's Anglo-expats trying to tell Poles what topics they may include at commemroations and in general how they should run their country. They are reminiscent of the coarse and crude dinner guest who complains about the food, spills the gravy, burps, breaks wind and barfs of the table. Moral fo the story:

DO POLAND A FAVOUR. ALBION (HOME SWEET HOME) BECKONS!
rozumiemnic Activity: 9 / 2,878
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3 Jul 2016  #33

aroagnt

commemroations

hic! Tired and emotional AGAIN dear?
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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3 Jul 2016  #34

Looks that way, doesn't it.

And as for all the xenophobic 'go home' stuff, it's worth remembering which of us is a citizen and which of us isn't...

The same sort of political and cultural illiteracy that led to Macierewicz behaving so appallingly at the Poznan 56 commemorations. He really did want to turn it into a Smolensk stunt and threw a strop when he was told how inappropriate that would have been.
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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3 Jul 2016  #35

he inconvenient Soviet empire.

Inconvenient my foot! It was the Evil Empire, the hell of nations, the tyrannical state second only to Madman Mao's Red China in the body count of innocent victims. Whoever or whatever brought down the Soviet abomination did mankind a big favour!
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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3 Jul 2016  #36

One thing that the disgraceful behaviour of PiS concerning the Poznan 1956 commemoration has done is to underline how they want to hijack events to be Smolensk commemorations to reinforce their sense of eternal martyrdom as well as to show the public how petulant, aggressive and vindictive they are.
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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3 Jul 2016  #37

underline

You have underlined what an ingrate you are badmouthing the country that extended their hospitality. Like that dinner guest I mentioned.

Tired and emotional

No, I'm on my15th sixpack of VIP lager. Aftter the 10th my typing goes haywire. (LOL!)
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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3 Jul 2016  #38

hospitality

Nope, always here by right. Now Po, remember that Poland is extending you our hospitality - why haven't you ever applied for citizenship? Or do you really want to answer that question....

And the debacle over PiS attempted interference in the Poznan 1956 commemorations is rather symptomatic of their whole vindictive attitude and contempt for the Polish state. Basically if they can't turn any public event into a celebration of their own ideology of martyrdom (they even pretend a plane crash was suspicious rather than an accident) they thou a strop.

The more publicity about that the better, since it does show their true colours.
dolnoslask Activity: 1 / 837
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3 Jul 2016  #39

"remember that Poland is extending you our hospitality - why haven't you ever applied for citizenship? "

That's crazy being Polish has nothing to do with citizenship, in Poland Pol would only be confirming his citizenship to get a piece of plastic.

If anything Poland only extends its hospitality to migrants who have achieved a certain set of criteria to become citizens, no way does that make them of Polish origin.

I only confirmed my citizenship to cover the bureaucracy required to buy a house and live here, under Polish law I have always been Polish.
rozumiemnic Activity: 9 / 2,878
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3 Jul 2016  #40

well you dont need to 'apply' to be a citizen of a country where your parents were born do you?
Like I am automatically an Irish citizen....because a parent was born there.
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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3 Jul 2016  #41

well you dont need to 'apply' to be a citizen of a country where your parents were born do you

Depends on the country (for Poland it isn't automatic), however that wouldn't apply to him anyway.

So sad to hear someone living here without ever holding citizenship or contributing positively telling others to 'go home'. It's as I say, indicative of the lack of logic within the tendency who support PiS.
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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3 Jul 2016  #42

holding citizenship

With four Polish-born grandparents,a Polish-born mother and PolAm Father I am Polish to everyone except a few idiots on PF and letter-of-the-law pen-pushing bureaucrats whom I don't care much about anyway. One can have 13 plastic cards and not be Polish, feel Polish and speak Polish properly, only criticise Polish customs, religion, lifestyles, even the food ("bland and salty" -- but not as salty as Marmite!). To such a one the plastic card would therefore only be document of convenience. Somone couldn't make it in his own country and tried his luck elsewhere.

Everyone, back to the topic of the thread please
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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3 Jul 2016  #43

letter-of-the-law pen-pushing bureaucrats whom I don't care much about anyway

That one single phrase just about encapsulates the shocking behaviour in respect (disrespect?) of the Poznan 1956 commemorations by the so-called defence minister.

For people who don't know, the solemn celebrations of the workers who lost their lives became a big issue here because Macierewicz petulantly refused to let the army take part unless he was allowed to turn it into a celebration of his conspiracy theories regarding the air accident in Smolensk (he believes it wasn't an accident).

Of course the Mayor of Poznan (a very popular and well-regarded person) wouldn't allow a serious event to become undignified in that way. He had the support of the city here and yes, it became another PiS fiasco.

In the end, common sense prevailed and it went ahead as normal, albeit withoiut the army, who the PiS 'defence minister' prevented from attending.
OP mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,576
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4 Jul 2016  #44

Did you know that Porozumienie Centrum, the precursor of PiS, were the only party wtih no ex-commies in their ranks.

Considering the dismal incompetence of PC, not having any party members was hardly an endorsement (or wise policy - most of the competent people had joined the party for professional not ideological reasons).

Of course the Mayor of Poznan (a very popular and well-regarded person) wouldn't allow a serious event to become undignified in that way.

Yes he did. I won't speak to his overall popularity but PiS did not gain any friends in the city of the first Polish anti-communist uprising.

the air accident in Smolensk (he believes it wasn't an accident).

He's starting to convince me that it wasn't an accident. But my suspicions are more centered on a certain current ruling party and a certain brother who has certainly gained a lot since his twin's unfortunate demise. Who's to say this obsessive witch hunt is not just a smoke screen to cover up who's really to blame? The question the is, is Macierewicz a useful tool being manipulated by very dark forces or is he complicent in purposefully trying to dsitract attention away from the culpable?
Lenka Activity: 2 / 1,064
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4 Jul 2016  #45

something a decent host never imposes on a guest,

What the hell are you on about? What guest? The army? Army wasn't a guest! More like one of the entertainments planned for the day.

And even if we go along with your guest analogy:
What kind of guest comes to the host celebration party with an agenda of their own? Not too nice, is it?

One can have 13 plastic cards and not be Polish, feel Polish and speak Polish properly, only

However not having that plastic card means that you cannot vote which means you don't have even the slightest say in what's going on in, theoretically ,your country. You can't join military, become a policeman or any kind of politician (not even local one for you). It means that for every government in the world you are not Polish.

Many ppl died and sacrificed a lot to be able to call themself Polish, be able to vote for their own goverment and hold, what you call so lightly, a plastic card. So don't you dare wipe your dirty mouth with Polish citizenship- I for one am proud to hold a plastic card with that white eagle. Maybe for you swearing allegiance to another country means nothing but not to me.
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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4 Jul 2016  #46

does show their true colours

It does show the true colours of PO stooges and frustrated, embittered and resentful KODesque losers who will stop at nothing to stir up trouble, jeer respected national statesmen and even desecrate so solemn an event as the Poznań commemoration. What right have a gang of PO-string-pulled provincial clerks to tell the Polish Armed Froces how to conduct a solemn commemorative ceremony?
Lenka Activity: 2 / 1,064
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4 Jul 2016  #47

What right have a gang of PO-string-pulled provincial clerks to tell the Polish Armed Froces how to conduct a solemn commemorative ceremony?

One-they are not clerks,they are ELECTED politicians to rule over the region.
Two-they were the ones resposible for organising the ceremony so yes, it was up to them what they wanted to do and how they wanted it to look like.
OP mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,576
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4 Jul 2016  #48

they were the ones resposible for organising the ceremony so yes, it was up to them what they wanted to do and how they wanted it to look like

yes, who the hell is Macierewicz to tell local elected authorities how to organize memorial events.

When you take away polly's hysteria, the facts are

1. The military were invited to participate
2. The military unacceptable demands as conditions to their participation
3. These conditions disqualified their participation in the view of those responsible for organizing the event.

Only silly, infantile personalities would get upset at this.
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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4 Jul 2016  #49

who the hell is Macierewicz

Macierewicz is not only a government minister of one of the best, most people-friendly administrations Poland has had since 1989. He was the one who could have prevented today's wasteful, costly and distracting 24-yearPolish-Polish war back in 1992 when an opporuntiy to decommunise the country emerged. Instead, SB informers Wałęsa (Bolek), Moczulski (Lech), Tusk (Oskar), Kwaśniewski (Alek) et al toppled the Olszewski government, putting paid to a clean-up programme like that carried out by other former Soviet satellites.
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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4 Jul 2016  #50

Trying to change the subject to get away from another PiS mess, and ignoring how roundly hated Macierewicz is (when six, yes six, predecessors of different political persuasions called him to stand down, you know something is badly amiss).

And yes, all of this is about PiS (and the clown Macierewicz in particular) trying to shift a commemoration of Poles who died in 1956) into a Smolensk grief fest against the will of the people of Poznan.
OP mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,576
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4 Jul 2016  #51

Macierewicz is not only a government minister

So what standing does all this (even if it were true, which it's not) give him to tell the local government in Poznan how to obsere the anniversary of the 1956 uprising?

So what standing does all this (even if it were true, which it's not) give him

Still waiting for an answer to this question that doesn't involve conspiracy theories from 1992 or a lot of gossip and name calling.

Will I receive one?
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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5 Jul 2016  #52

what standing does

People of great stature, achievement and prominence, providential statesmen and sterling patriots such as Macierewicz have greater obligations than those of petty government bureacrats and in-it-just-for-the-money clerks and operatives. Such people (and Piłsudski was one) at times must rise above petty bureaucratic constraints with a view to the greater good of the nation. Those who actually fought back in 1956 felt that recalling Smolensk victims was not out of place. What was out of place and in extremely poor taste was the mean-spririted Platformerian attempt to sabotage and desecrate so lofty a commeration with jeers, red cards and ultimata.
Harry Activity: 65 / 12,658
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5 Jul 2016  #53

People of great stature, achievement and prominence, providential statesmen and sterling patriots such as Macierewicz

Are you referring to the same politician who is so widely despised and electorally toxic that before the last elections the alleged leader of the government promised that he would not be given any ministerial role whatsoever? The mayor of Poznan was directly elected by the people of Poznan, exactly who elected the defense minister? Isn't the case that actually 18% who voted for the current regime were promised that he would not be a government minister? In a democracy an elected official should take priority over an unelected and unelectable appointee.
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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5 Jul 2016  #54

Will I receive one?

Not really, just a cross between a total misunderstanding of the so-called 'great man theory' of Carlyle, a bit of misunderstood Nietzsche and a heavy des of Thirties fascism.

And a failed attempt to turn the Poznan '56 commemoration into a PiS Smolensk grief-fest, probably with banners of LK, clergy dressed like Christmas trees, and a golden statue.
OP mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,576
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5 Jul 2016  #55

People of great stature, achievement and prominence, providential statesmen and sterling patriots

I'm talking about any of those, I'm aksing about Macierewicz. And no, you do not have an answer beyond your typical irrational hatred of the rule of law in favor of rule by Big Man (i.e. party boss).
Polonius3 Activity: 975 / 11,309
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5 Jul 2016  #56

18% who voted

And just how many voted for the failed PO loser regime? A single-digit minority? It is they whom the Polish voter disqualified and threw out of office, and deservedly so. You can fool some of the people some of the time...but after 8 years of scams, lies, unfulfilled promises and catering to the post-commie clique, even a simpleton could see through their cheap trickery.
Ziemowit Activity: 7 / 2,168
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5 Jul 2016  #57

18% who voted for the current regime were promised that he would not be a government minister?

Any link to that quote or just more Harryesque b*llocks?!

Actually, Harry is right here. I remember hearing Beata Szydło making that promise in front of TV cameras. But that was before the election took place. She made it as an official PiS candidate for the post of PM in the hope of attracting voters who were inclined to vote PiS, but were very much afraid of Antoni Macierewicz, so they could vote someone else instead, such as Kukiz '15.

The point where Harry is wrong (or is lying or manipulating the facts again) is when he says "18% who voted for the current regime". Obviously, everyone on this forum knows Harry has been manipulating things to his own advantage for a long time on PF. The percentage of voters who voted for a particular party can only be referred to the number of all those who cast a valid vote in the election and not to all those eligible for voting. Thus the percentage is 37,58% (5 711 687 out of 15 200 671 valid votes cast). The 18% figure here is something meant for the "Western" people to believe in, probably those whom comrade Lenin so aptly called "useful idiots" in the past. We know nothing of how abstainers would have voted and I may well say that those who abstained would have surely voted PiS, but because they knew PiS would win, they did not bother to go the ballot box at all.

The trick Harry uses is very much a "Brit bully" thing which nicely explains why some people originating from the British Isles earned such a vile reputation here on the PF.
jon357 Activity: 54 / 10,431
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5 Jul 2016  #58

. I remember hearing Beata Szydło making that promise in front of TV cameras. But that was before the election took place.

She made it as an official PiS candidate for the post of PM in the hope of attracting voters who were inclined to vote PiS, but were very much afraid of Antoni Macierewicz

She did make that promise. She broke that promise and now (as in the Poznan fiasco and many other issues) we are seeing the damage.
Harry Activity: 65 / 12,658
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5 Jul 2016  #59

She did make that promise.

Yes, but of course it's the man who publicly says that he is her boss who actually picked 'her' cabinet. No doubt that even if she publicly fired Macierewicz because of his disgraceful actions with regard to the Poznan commemorations, Chairman Kaczynski would simply fire her.
OP mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,576
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5 Jul 2016  #60

Don't forget he humiliated her directly after the elections that she won for him by floating rumors of a different PM.

I assumed JK wasn't interested in women romantically, I hadn't realized he was quite that misogynistic though...




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60th anniversary of the Poznan uprising!
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