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Actually, there never was any Polish-German hatred


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #121
As far as I know Poles are free to settle in Germany and vice-versa and there is
a co-operation between border regions, so maybe there is a chance to rebuild
what was destroyed as a result of WW2 mostly.

Yes, of course! :)
It will happen quite naturally...

The problem is that Germans are not only not willing to settle in Poland, they are
even fleeing the Eastern regions of Germany itself, so at the moment it's not our
fault that there isn't too much co-existence of Polish and German populations.
As far as I'm concerned, Germans are welcome to settle and work in Poland.

But even if not...alone the possibility and freedom to do so takes the bitterness and sting out of it.

PS: What are we going to do about the next silesian football talent? Should he become a superstar for Poland or for Germany...hmmm...:):):)
Torq 32 | 2,897
9 Jun 2010 #122
But even if not...alone the possibility and freedom takes the bitterness and sting out of it.

That's true. Give it one, maximum two generations and our children and grandchildren
will laugh their asses off reading old posts on this forum :)

*by the way - the DAB beer is OK, I'm making it my official beer for the World Cup*

PS: What are we going to do about the next silesian football talent? Should he become a superstar for Poland or for Germany...hmmm...:):):)

I say we should throw a coin - heads or tails :)
DariuszTelka 5 | 193
9 Jun 2010 #123
Dariusz> LOL, niqqa suddenly realizin the heat on his Polish a$$. hahahaha, SLĄSK ain't no Oslo, but now this niqqa saying 'we norwegians' , betta go home for ur owns sake Osloeman

You need to be studied..do you speak as you write too? That is some serious f**ked up language, PolenGGGs.

And I'll gladly take Slask over Oslo 11 out of 10 times. (Oslo=Karachi).

Dariusz
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #124
Land it got only from the victors of WWI to punish Germany with the treaty of Versailles.

Which land? Poznań? So you're arguing that a city that Poles built and inhabited for something like 1000 years was German because Germans invaded it for 100 years?

Silesia was never a German heartland, it was Polish, Austrian, Czech and German but never an exclusively German heartland, it changed hands far too much far too often for such a claim.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #125
Austrian, Czech and German

German, Bohemian (mostly German) and German you mean? ;)

And where did I mentioned Posen?

And in that Silesia I' was speaking about Germans were actually the first to settle ever, 2000 years back, and were the majority still before the World Wars, 2000 years later!

I'm not speaking about heartland...I'm the first to acknowledge the unique make up and history of Silesia...I'm proud of it.

But on the other hand I encounter to many Poles who want to deny any german part of silesian history at all or paint us as invaders for some decades only, for political reasons.

That's so wrong too!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #126
German, Bohemian (mostly German) and German you mean? ;)

No not mostly German, Śląsk became German in 1741 after the Silesian Wars, Poles were a majority in much of the Silesia untill XV century and parts of Silesia were never German untill the partition.

As for Austria of Hapsburgs it was not German, then it was distinctively Austrian and it fought Germans for the control of Silesia.

Also you ignore the period when Silesia was under Polish Piast dynasty so Germany has no claim whatsoever to Silesia as its heartland region.

And in that Silesia I' was speaking about Germans were actually the first to settle ever, 2000 years back, and were the majority still before the World Wars, 2000 years later!

The Germans became a majority 2000 years later BB, you make it sound as if they were a majority all the way when in fact they were completely absent from Silesia for about 1200 years after their arrival.

But on the other hand I encounter to many Poles who want to deny any german part of silesian history

I dont, you had me openly admit that Wrocław for example is a German city through and through but Silesia is unique, if there was an euro-region that was it i just dont agree with portraying it as anyones heartland since its not.

That's so wrong too!

Yes it is but the history of German-Polish relations is locally viewed through WW2 lense.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #127
No not mostly German, Śląsk became German in 1741 after the Silesian Wars, Poles were a majority in much of the Silesia untill XV century and parts of Silesia were never German untill the partition.

From year 0 to 1000 it was Bohemia Moravia

Bohemia would remain a largely autonomous state under the Holy Roman Empire for several decades. The jurisdiction of the Holy Roman Empire was definitively reasserted when Jaromír of Bohemia was granted fief of the Kingdom of Bohemia by Emperor King Henry II of the Holy Roman Empire, with the promise that he hold it as a vassal once he re-occupied Prague with a German army in 1004, ending the rule of Boleslaw I of Poland.

Quite German too...

...
The first known states to hold power there were those of Greater Moravia and Bohemia.
In the 10th century Silesia was incorporated into the early Polish state...

now read on carefully:

...
but it later broke into independent duchies, coming under increasing German influence. It came under the rule of the Crown of Bohemia, which passed to Austria in 1526. Most of Silesia was conquered by Prussia in 1742, later becoming part of the German Empire.

Not only german since Prussia but for centuries before that!

The Germans became a majority 2000 years later BB, you make it sound as if they were a majority all the way when in fact they were completely absent from Silesia for about 1200 years after their arrival.

Who told you that?
You don't believe that honestly, don't you?
How do you think that should have worked work? A whole people jointly packing their bags??? :)
Just gone? Just like that?

That's what I call polical denying of inconvienent facts. It's easier to deny the existence of a people...
No Sok, Germans lived here for 2000 years, many centuries longer than the Slavs do and they influenced and enriched and ruled most of this lands too. THAT is the fact!

PS: Why do you think the Sudeten Germans of the newly created Czechoslovakia felt German and wanted to be Germans even if they theoretically were Austrians??? ;)

PPS: I'm not sure where german heartland actually is...maybe Scandinavia (as we came from there). Germans wandered around to much to have a true "heartland" I think.

What is polish "heartland"?
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
9 Jun 2010 #128
Land it got only from the victors of WWI to punish Germany with the treaty of Versailles.
(They did the same to your chum Hungary btw)

True to that. we got dat sh~t handed to our ancestors on a silver platter. And we were still arrogant enuff to start daydreaming of a Poland the size of the Crown/Commonwealth instead of focusing on keeping the neighbors happy = but then again, we just scavengers, we aint neighbor friendly

PS: Poles really do not worship land and race/blood as the Germans do, I think the long co-existance with Jews rubbed off on us, and we feel more than at home anywhere in the universe.
DariuszTelka 5 | 193
9 Jun 2010 #129
Maybe as a sidenote, but here's a up to date article about the german national team, which tells of three "polish" players in the german team. One of them sings the german hymn. another one doesnt'.

According to the article this has somehow sparked a debate in Germany, since "11 of the national team's 23 players are either foreign-born or have some immigrant roots".

Piotr Trochowski, Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski all have polish ties one way or another. It was said that Trochowski didn't sing the anthem, but Klose did. I also read that Klose and Podolski speak polish to oneanother when they meet up for practice with the german team..

I know this theme about polish born players, putting on the german jersey has been brought up before, but it's in the news again, so how can we avoid it..

Did Olisadebe sing the polish anthem??

polishforums.com/history-34/actually-german-hatred-43094/5/#msg920045
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
9 Jun 2010 #130
PPS: I'm not sure where german heartland actually is...maybe Scandinavia (as we came from there). Germans wandered around to much to have a true "heartland" I think.

I would say your heartland is the Frankfurt/Cologne/Ruhrpott area

But how come you don't know, I suddenly find myself thinkin u a Crypto-German , and @home you watch Polsat & eat schokobananen for breakfast or whatever the Polish psycho immigrant community in Germany is doing.

PS: Poland's heartland is Małopolska and the surrounds. some think it rather be Gniezno and Poznan but I don't care much for that theory
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #131
One of them sings the german hymn. another one doesnt'.

Singing the hymn isn't seen widely as part of germanness as in the decades back it wasn't common to sing at at all, more concentrating on the upcoming game...the singing and hugging and all those rituals started during the last world cup I think...

Piotr Trochowski, Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski all have polish ties one way or another.

They are Silesians/Kashubs of german heritage...their families used this heritage to immigrate to Germany and getting german citizenship. I don't call them foreigners.

I suddenly find myself thinkin u a Crypto-German

I was called worse!

...and what is wrong with Schokobananen???
Seanus 15 | 19,706
9 Jun 2010 #132
Actually, there was ;)
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
9 Jun 2010 #133
schokobananen are cheapjunkfood.

BB: you understand that there really aint no Germany, its just a Occupied territory, a land of car makers and bankers.
why chose this side and still be flauntin that u German????

where is Podolski's German heritage, he a traitor to your people: he aint one of yours.

You better believe there is hatred between both nations, especially the polish. since the last partition of Poland where it disappeared off of the map.

coz this Versailles present was like a welfare handout - but the people who got in to run that sh!t couldn't settle for that, they wanted a Megapoland.

It's really pathetic, more pathetic than a craqhead spendin the welfare money on the smoke and then complainin that the kids aint got no food = seriously.

And I am saying this without pride, its a shame .... that most Poles who kno this still are so fkn ignorant that Kaiser Wilhelm II gave up what made the Druga Rzeczpospolita, todays predecessor..

man,

we just a bunch of ungrateful thievin visigoth descendants.
we certainly know how to fuq things up, like East Prussia for example, and now we gettin money from this fake state 'Germany' to repair that region to livable standards.

Really some Poles are badd, its a love-hate relationship amongst the polish psyche.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #134
why chose this side and still be flauntin that u German????

Because I am??? ;)

fake state 'Germany'

Are you somehow related to our board nut Crowie?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #135
om year 0 to 1000 it was Bohemia Moravia

Aka Czech Kingdom.

Quite German too...

No BB, not even close, it was a HRE vassal but then again so was Poland, Bohemians were Czechs and were quite Slavic.

Not only german since Prussia but for centuries before that!

Yes coming under German influence but then again these were still Polish duchies inhabited by Poles and run by Poles, the German influence was extensive but there werent that many Germans then, the first colonisation waves start in mid XIV with king Casimir the Great.

The influence is visible in Coats of Arms etc but these were Polish duchies run by Piast Dynasty.

No Sok, Germans lived here for 2000 years, many centuries longer than the Slavs do and they influenced and enriched and ruled most of this lands too. THAT is the fact!

Yes thats a fact, what you omit is that German population was not significant.

First came the Germans, moved West, then came the Celts, moved West, then came the Czechs and stayed, then came the Poles and took over, then Czechs and Poles started mixing, then Germans came back in number and re-established themselves but even then they were not a majority.

They only became a local majority in some parts of the region between XVIII and XX century but then again the same is for the Poles.

What is polish "heartland"?

Lesser Poland, Greater Poland, eastern parts of Opolskie (Oppeln) Dolnośląskie (Lower Silesian) and Mazowieckie if we count at minimum option and the entire east-south bit of current Poland as well as current Western Ukraine and smaller parts of Western Belarus without Grodno.

Lower Silesia and Baltic Coast i consider neutral since they changed both hands and alliegiance far too often to account for a historic land of any given country.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #136
Aka Czech Kingdom.

This "Czech Kingdom" was more than a half german...

No BB, not even close, it was a HRE vassal but then again so was Poland, Bohemians were Czechs and were quite Slavic.

Read about the first university in Prague and about the Germans there...

historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac40

...
Charles is elected German king in 1346, succeeds his father as king of Bohemia later in the same year, and is crowned emperor in Rome in 1355. So the alliance with the Luxembourg dynasty brings imperial power to Bohemia. Even better, Charles makes Prague his imperial city. Already a prosperous centre, at the intersection of important trade routes, it benefits immensely from the emperor's patronage.

Charles founds eastern Europe's first university at Prague in 1348 and builds its central hall (the Carolinum, named after himself). He commissions the famous Charles Bridge, joining the Old Town to the Little Quarter on the other side of the Vltava. And he adds an entirely new quarter to the city, the Nove Mesto or New Town.

The authority which Charles establishes as Holy Roman emperor (it is he who brings order to the empire's proceedings with his Golden Bull of 1356) is sufficient for his son, Wenceslas IV, to succeed him unopposed as German king - a rare event in the recent centuries of German elections.

Yes thats a fact, what you omit is that German population was not significant.

Thank you! :(

Lesser Poland, Greater Poland, eastern parts of Opolskie (Oppeln) Dolnośląskie (Lower Silesian) and Mazowieckie if we count at minimum option and the entire east-south bit of current Poland as well as current Western Ukraine and smaller parts of Western Belarus without Grodno.

Erm...you know what "heartland" means? ;)
You should choose one, not every settlement of Poles/Slavs.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #137
This "Czech Kingdom" was more than a half german...

Oh please BB i know Germans have an oversized p3nis complex when it comes to "German superiority" that puts Poles to shame but thats ridiculous.

Czech kingdom was an independent powerfull state, even when it fractured it was more powerfull than half the German vassaldoms combined.

Read about the first university in Prague and about the many Germans there...

Wait so Czechs who had sewered streets a full century before Germans and Poles stopped f*cking cattle and worshipping the sun created a university only because of englightened help from the Germans? BB a newscast for you, Czechs untill XIII were civilisationally higher then any country in Europe including Germany.

Prague had broad sewered streets, schools, public hospitals and a university when Berlin was two barns and a moat, i think you got your priorities as to which nation got to civilisation first a bit mixed up, Czechs beat both our nations there by a long stretch.

Thank you! :(

For much of the history that is.

Erm...you know what "heartland" means? ;)
You should choose one, not every settlement of Poles/Slavs.

No i mean a region where stuff started, if you want an absolute ground zero then thats Greater Poland and the city of Poznań which is where Polans (Polanie in Polish), the guys who united proto-Polish tribes came from.

and I have connects in Congress

And thats exactly why pot needs to be banned.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #138
Oh please BB i know Germans have an oversized p3nis complex when it comes to "German superiority" that puts Poles to shame but thats ridiculous.

Heh:)

Bohemia became German from the year 1004 onwards...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia

The jurisdiction of the Holy Roman Empire was definitively reasserted when Jaromír of Bohemia was granted fief of the Kingdom of Bohemia by Emperor King Henry II of the Holy Roman Empire, with the promise that he hold it as a vassal once he re-occupied Prague with a German army in 1004, ending the rule of Boleslaw I of Poland.

That is a fact!

Czechs untill XIII were civilisationally higher then any country in Europe including Germany.

Well...about the first european university founded by a german emperor:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_University_in_Prague

The university was actually opened in 1349. The university was sectioned into parts called nations: the Bohemian, Bavarian, Polish and Saxon. The Bohemian natio included Bohemians, Moravians, southern Slavs, and Hungarians; the Bavarian included Austrians, Swabians, natives of Franconia and of the Rhine provinces; the Polish included Silesians, Poles, Russians; the Saxon included inhabitants of the Margravate of Meissen, Thuringia, Upper and Lower Saxony, Denmark, and Sweden.[5]
Ethnically Czech students made 16 - 20 % of all students.

So, most of the students weren't even ethnic Czechs...so much for the superiority!
Some years later:

...The result of this coup was the emigration of foreign (mostly German) professors and students, founding the University of Leipzig in May 1409. Before that, in 1408, the university had about 200 doctors and magisters, 500 bachelors, and 30,000 students; it now lost a large part of this number, accounts of the loss varying from 5000 to 20,000 including 46 professors.[5] In the autumn of 1409, Hus was elected rector of the now Czech-dominated rump university.

What...most of the teachers and students were Germans??? How come???? ;)

Now what happened to this now ethnically cleansed university next?

...Thus, the Prague university lost the largest part of its students and faculty. From then on the university declined to a merely regional institution with a very low status.[8] Soon, in 1419, the faculties of theology and law disappeared, and only the faculty of arts remained in existence.

Short summary:

So, around 80 percent of the students were non-czechs and the majority of the teachers were Germans.
As the Germans left the once famed university lost their status and sank into irrelevance...hmmmm...

Doesn't look like as if the Czechs had been the intellectual elite of the european middle age as you say...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
9 Jun 2010 #139
Well...about the first european university

Nope, Bratwurst, the oldest European University is the one of Bologna, opened in 1066. Then came the university of Paris, Oxford, Cambridge, Salamanca, Padua, Naples, Toulouse, Siena, Montpellier, Coimbra, Lleida, Rome, Orleans, Perugia, Florence, Grenoble, Pisa, Valladolid and THEN came the university of Prague.

Most of them way before the uni of Prague. At the moment Prague opened, there were already about 20 universities in Europe, the oldest ones already about 300 years old at the time.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
9 Jun 2010 #140
I don't do drugs.

I drink gin.

yeah, maybe I aint a Pole than since it descended from that 'Fortress' made out of clay and twigs. I think im a Mazur, ie. Mazovian.

But in all respect to anyone who want to talk to some 'normal' thinking people about polish history, you better head to something like historia.pl (search for other polish history forums, at least the posters there can admit faults)

'cause this is some real roleplaying sh~t here.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #141
That is a fact!

Absolutely but invaded does not mean it became a historic german land, you just took over it just like the Poles did.

Well...about the first european university founded by a german emperor:

BB it was founded by the Pope, also Charlie was a Czech, born of Czech nobility, that only reinforces my point that Czechs aka Bohemians were a powerfull regional influence.

Elder house of Luxembourg were all Bohemians, many of them had latinised Czech names.

So, most of the students weren't even ethnic Czechs...so much for the superiority!

Czechs were not very populous and the uni would get flooded since it was the first and for a time the only such institution in the region, i'd have to research it but taking a wild guess i imagine the most numerous would be Ruthenians, then Poles and Germans then the rest.

so much for the superiority!

Do you really want me to compare X century prague with contemporary German and Polish cities? What we lived in were f*cking barns by comparison.

What...most of the teachers and students were Germans??? How come???? ;)

Mainly due to emigration, Germany was not the wealthiest of countries, same reason why so many Germans came to Poland.

Germany was a lot poorer and a lot more populous and while Prague was a huge city the university was really too large for Czechs to operate alone.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
9 Jun 2010 #142
Well, Bologna is strictly speaking also to the east of Paris :) The South-East, but yet the East as well ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation

>^..^<

M-G (doh)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #143
...
Charles IV founded the Prague university by a deed of foundation on April 7, 1348 as a first university (studium generale) to the north of the Alps and to the east of Paris.

BB Charles was a Czech from Przemyślidzi dynasty so the university was founded by a Czech ruler in Czech kingdom.

I think

I think you don't :))))
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #144
Do you really want me to compare X century prague with contemporary German and Polish cities? What we lived in were f*cking barns by comparison.

Erm...we are speaking the HRE here...Bohemia was for nearly 1000 years part of it.
Do you have an idea about the architecture during this time?

Charles was a Czech from Przemyślidzi dynasty so the university was founded by a Czech ruler in Czech kingdom.

Can't be!
He would had died trying to speak that name...!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #145
Erm...we are speaking the HRE here...

Yes, HRE apart from a fancy name was a bunch of tribesmen f*cking goats, so were the Poles while Czechs had these huge cities with cobbled streets, working public hospitals and stuff.

Also HRE was a very loose term, after Charlemaigne it was a loose federation, sometime if someone like Barbarossa came along it started to vaguely resemble a country and then fell apart again and yeah early on it was run by Czechs for a time.

Can't be!
He would had died trying to speak that name...!

His Czech name was Vaclav, for Germans of the time it would be Wenclaus or Wenceslaus i dont remember atm (latinised version).

Bohemia was for nearly 1000 years part of it.

Yes but being part of HRE is like being part of EU, it was a very loose confederation, nations had kings and princes and still were parts of HRE, heck they even fought within the confines of the Empire.

After Charlemaigne it was more often then not a fancy name that didnt even represent any sort of a union.

Do you have an idea about the architecture during this time?

Quite a lot yes, Germans built simplified versions of Roman architecture with centres being prserved Roman forts, Poles built wooden enforced earthworks with only largest cities made of stone and Czechs had already a distinct style (we're talking X cent here) i can dig you some sketches of how stuff looked back then.

To give you an example if Germans wanted to build something serious they had to bring masons from Italy while Czechs had their own and masonry was the measurement of development at the time.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
9 Jun 2010 #146
Yes, HRE apart from a fancy name was a bunch of tribesmen f*cking goats,

Well, just take a look of the long list of european composers, inventors, architects, artists, poets and what not and you will be surprised how many of them had their roots in this 1000 years old thing! ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Jun 2010 #147
Same can be said for Spain, Russia, Italy etc, it still doesnt change the fact that being part of HRE meant zip politically, the point is however that in Dark Ages Czechs were the most advanced culture of HRE, not Germans, not French or Burgundian or Dutch but Czechs.
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
9 Jun 2010 #148
Thats the point, them were the Dark ages, and it aint Dark ages no more.
its 2010 and the text below resembles Polish mentality, even if they doing it subconciously.... moaning more than sterilized gypsies ... after all Germans LOST, Poland actually exists , yet they still moaning like some crippled sterilized buncha gypsies from bulgaria

Brüder, Sensen in die Hände!
Auf zum Kampfe lasst uns eilen!
Polens Knechtschaft hat ein Ende,
länger wollen wir nicht weilen.

a translation would be nice
nott 3 | 594
10 Jun 2010 #149
a translation would be nice

background info likewise... Judging by 'Sensen', that would be a song dated somewhere around the Kosciuszko Uprising. Bloodthirsty Poles ungratefully wishing death to the enlightened Nations which compassionately put the suffering Poland out of her misery. An unheard-of cooperative effort, exceptional act of international benevolence, and they even had to pay for it with their own money. Them benefactors, I mean, not those greedy Poles, robbing everybody's land left, right and centre. Just look at the map, all of the so-called 'their' territory belonged to somebody else some time in the past.

There was more of it, some Polish slanderous rhyme like Rota, or sumtin, 'no German will spit us in the face'. The sheer cheek of it, just imagine! Hell, Poles dared to sing 'Noch ist Polen nicht verloren', can you believe? 'Poland is not dead yet', phew. And I hear they still do sing it, bastards, and in public. And they can't even put it right. 'Verloren' means 'lost', and they sing 'nie zginela', which means 'not dead yet', rather. Idiots.

Really, it's an effort to write this 'nation's' name with a capital letter.


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