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Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?


Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Sep 2018  #301
Croats

Just to be precise. If you have in mind state of Croatia when you say Croats, be advised that Serbs represent majority of Croatia`s population. And those Serbs aren`t in unity with rest of the regional Serbs only because Vatican and Germany wanted to be so. They took Catholicism as crucial factor to determine nation in this case and pushed for it. And process isn`t finished yet. Its ongoing. Ignorant of every sanity and mercy, equally on Catholic and on Orthodox Serbs.
Ironside 47 | 9,254    
1 Sep 2018  #302
If you have in mind state of Croatia when you say Croats,

No, I mean Croats and Serbs they came most or less from the neighboring territory between r. Elbe and r. Wisla. Long before both nation were formed. So, no I don't mean states in my post - I said Serbs and Croats and I mean it - I think it is pretty precise in English. Well.... ask some expert but if you ask me that was precise enough.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Sep 2018  #303
No, I mean Croats and Serbs they came most or less from the neighboring territory between r. Elbe and r. Wisla.

You greatly mistaking here. That what you speak is myth. Its confusion regarding general and original name of all Slavs- Sarmatian name. See, both `Serbian` and `Croatian` names inherit from Sarmatian name. Just, Serbian (in Eng.) is closer to original. Its local version of Sarmatian name (Srbi- Balkan/CE, Serbya- Lusatia/CE). `Sarmatian` name is Greco-Roman form of original SRBI, while `Croatian` name represent `Sarmatian` name in solely Latin version of it.

So, when you say that in early middle ages some old records speak of Serbs (Serbians) and Croats (Croatians) on Polish soil, you in fact speak of `Sarmatian` name on Polish soil, which is logical considering that you Poles also originate from Sarmatians (ie Serbians). I mean, we are all Sarmatians (Serbs) but Balkan/CE Serbs just keep using that once original name.

Now, speaking of Balkan/CE Serbian-Croatian antagonism, its different. We here don`t speak of Serbs in general but about Serbs Serbs. Same identity is defined on the base of same language (same local Slavic `shtokavian` dialect), same mentality, culture and same genetics of populations of Serbia and Croatia (and Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, etc). As I said, foreign factor (Vatican and Germany) using Catholicism to separate Serbs over religious lines, so there comes Croatia.

I said Serbs and Croats and I mean it - I think it is pretty precise in English. Well.... ask some expert but if you ask me that was precise enough.

But if you speak like that you accepts fact of forcible turning of Serbs into Croats. It would be same as I say that Protestant or Orthodox Poles aren`t Poles, that they differ from Catholic Poles and therefore are different ethos. Fact that Croatian state exist that there are some people who call itself Croats don`t nee to confuse you. It don`t change fact that we all the time speak about Serbs. Its just that odds are too strong and my people wasn`t able to offer proper resistance to the pressure of Vatican and Germany.

Still, you as Polish, at least, have to show some understanding. You Poles often were victims of partitions. Not to say that Vatican didn`t quite reward Polish Catholicism. Germans were always chosen people and Poles infidels no matter that they opted for Catholicism.
Miloslaw 8 | 874    
1 Sep 2018  #304
Yawn......Serb goes on and on......how about discussing Serb,or would that be Sarmatian,genocide?
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Sep 2018  #305
Ah that anti-Sarmatian propaganda.

But well, Rome was always formidable foe. Underestimated for too long. And now we are surprised that we aren`t safe even at the very core of our civilization, in one of our two last bastions (the one bastion being Lusatia and the one being here in the region where Danube separate Balkan and Central Europe).

Its about one old war. And I know that last bearers of venerable Sarmatian name won`t lose this war. No, we won`t. For the sake of greater balance among human civilizations.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
16 Sep 2018  #306
Merged:

If old Sarmatians (Slavs) were united around charismatic and prosperous leader, Europe could be now one state



You know, in not that deep past of prehistoric Europe, ethos and language that dominated Europe was native Sarmatian (ie Slavic). Then things changed, gradually.

Once they appeared on horizon, Romans and, Greeks before them, with good reason sought to destroy Sarmatian (ie Slavic) urban centers, religious and cultural elite. They did also all to divide Sarmatians (ie Slavs) from within. Romans had economic initiative, established controlled trade routes and imposed borders where borders earlier didn`t exist.

Still, we can imagine that somehow some powerful Sarmatian (ie Slavic) lord appeared on historical scene and united tribes and already constituted local ethoses and communities on wide map from Pictish shores to the Galia, Dacia, Thracia, all to the Scythian steppes. If such a Lord managed to prevent genocides committed by Romans in Galia and Dacia, on many other sites of ancient Europe, today`s Europe would be one state.

s

Reconstruction of one of possible appearance of Sarmatian (ie Slavic) lord
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
16 Sep 2018  #307
If old Sarmatians (Slavs) were united around charismatic and prosperous leader, Europe could be now one state

Does that mean Sarmatians were neither united, nor charismatic nor prosperous?
Classic34    
30 Sep 2018  #308
my opinion or impression from what I read of sulimirski's book is that the Ardaragantes/ Sarmatae Libri of the 4th century living in Hungary, were the IAZYGES.

Why? Because the Iazyges were actually the most southwesterly clan of the SAUROMATAI. The Sauromatai/Sarmatae had assimilated the Royal Scyths and another clan of these people were the SPALI.

To me it makes more sense that two clans of the Sauromatai tribe had Scythian farmers living between them and shared trade and contact between themselves among this subjugated vassal population.

The Scythian farmers are said to have lived in Scythian era in Galicia, Podolia and Volhynia while the Spali lived to the east of them.

And then of course the invasion of various peoples like Goths, Huns and Alani shaped and affected the Sarmatae afterwards. The eastern Sarmatae merged with the Alanic Antae.

A war broke out between the Libri and Servi in the Danube area and apparently the Servi won (330's AD).

*The Servi did not speak the same language of their masters.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
30 Sep 2018  #309
Does that mean Sarmatians were neither united, nor charismatic nor prosperous?

Ancient Europeans (ie Sarmatians, ie in original- Serbs) were not united. They were aware of itself- in sense that one who was born on Pictish islands knew that he can walk all the way to the Black Lake (Black Sea) and walk thru the land of his brethren, thru Sarmatain realm. But, ancients were not united. At least, there are no historical records of it.

But we know of similarities in Slavic (ie Baltic, ie Sarmatian) pantheon and deities. If deities were similar and same it is quite logical that ancients spread their culture, for sure peacefully but also we can presume that some martial and unifying authority, at some point of time, existed and took part in spreading and supported `global` religious concept.

Charismatic? Yes, some for sure were charismatic but, or they were not charismatic enough or it didn`t help them.

Prosperous?

Imagine prosperous Sarmatian leader in situation when there was no unity among Sarmatians and Greeks and Romans systematically sought to destroy all urban Sarmatian centers: in Thracia (Bylazora), in Anatolia (Troia), on British islands (Sorbiodunum), in Dacia (Sarmizegetusa), on Peloponnese (Sparta), in Etruria or as they called themselves Rasna (Sabatia and Perusia), in Gaul (Samarobriva), etc, etc. Urban centers were destroyed, rural population too often leaderless- object of hunt, slavery, loathing, relocation, assimilation and extermination. Religious elite (druids) were especially hunted and destroyed. Many local rural lords were subjugated with bribery. Some local rulers turned to hunt its own people in order to sell it to Greeks or Romans. Etc, etc.

But yes, we can only imagine how world of ancients looked like prior to Greeks or Romans appeared on historical scene. It was magnificent, I am sure. Worthy of books of one Tolkien. To create civilization relied on solstice and Sun as ultimate ideal, from British islands, via Danube, all the way to Baltic and Black Lake (Sea), via Anatolia and all the way all to the Ind River in one moment of time. It was surely magnificent. I am sure that ancients sow some form of unity in one point of their most glorious ancient era. Some Empire probably existed or maybe some ancient nomadic tribe ventured and dominated over others- nomadic also and sedentary. Some `Era of ancient Sarmatian kingdoms` of untold European and world past, sound fine to me.
Miloslaw 8 | 874    
30 Sep 2018  #310
Oh Crow.....does any of this ancient history really matter?
Only to you.....
Crow 146 | 7,595    
30 Sep 2018  #311
One day, we all will be history. Are you aware of that? Don`t you seek to be remembered properly?
Miloslaw 8 | 874    
30 Sep 2018  #312
No,I don't need to be remembered in that way.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
30 Sep 2018  #313
Its that spirit of `Sarmatism` of this forum that guides me.
Miloslaw 8 | 874    
30 Sep 2018  #314
There is no spirit of Sarmatism....even we Poles know that was a myth.....
jon357 65 | 13,636    
1 Oct 2018  #315
that was a myth.

It's all part of the romantic ideal of the early Nineteenth Century, a beautiful myth in its time, a beautiful myth now, but still largely a myth and sometimes a way of looking at things in a Romantic light. God knows, the English cooked up enough romantic legends around then. I won't even mention tartan and druids.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
1 Oct 2018  #316
No myth. 2015 study from sarmatian dead shows slavic halpogroup r1a. The sarmatians encountered proto slavs in the area and basically colonized them, intermarried, etc. Same with germanic influence but coming from the west. Numerous roman historians and ethnographers have written about the sarmatians
jon357 65 | 13,636    
1 Oct 2018  #317
If archaelogists need to analyse graves to try and find a 'connection'; it shows there's no defined cultural link. So a Romantic myth. QED.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Oct 2018  #318
Israeli PM Netanyahu says that it isn`t myth.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
1 Oct 2018  #319
Netanyahu is neither an historian nor an archaeologist, not to mentions as someone who likes instrumentalize history as a weapon, his words have even less credibility.
Classic34    
1 Oct 2018  #320
A Slavonic pedigree assigned to the ancient Vistula Venethi in Poland Belarus and Baltic is a MYTH.

Some people on this blog are defending that myth.

Wikipedia on that topic has kept changing the definition of Vistula Venethi over the years.

That's because they have to reconcile the fact that there was no proof or existence of `Slavonic' as a language or as an ethnicity yet until after 4th century AD.

Some Polish and Slovene historians cling to the Myth of the ancient Veneti as a Slavonic people. Only Jordanes states this. There is no evidence otherwise.

This myth is defended by people who believe `Slavs' originated in Poland since pre-historic times.

The Slav homeland covers several countries spanning east central Europe in the area of Scythian farmers who spoke late Indo-European

Even the ****** Wikipaedia acknowledges Sarmatians `were assimilated by Slavs'

But this can be also explained in another way; as two groups, Indo-Iranian and late Indo European influencing each other over a long time and also Goths influences later. That is what took place in Chernoles, Zarubintsy and the Chernyakov cultural complex
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
1 Oct 2018  #321
They dont 'need' to do anything, but finding r1a halpogroup in remains of ancient sarmatians only reinforces the link between modern slavs and ancient sarmatians as they share the same halpogroups esp r1a. Furthermore, many ancient roman records prove sarmatians lived in what is modern day eastern europe including in poland including pliny the elder, hippocrates, jordanes on account of ptolemys records, herodetus etc. They all give accounts of the same group living near the sea of azov, danube, vistula, volga, etc modern day eastern european slavic countries - ukraine, poland, russia, czechy/slovakia, etc.
jon357 65 | 13,636    
1 Oct 2018  #322
only reinforces the link

It doesn't actually, since every last strand of Sarmatian culture is dead buried and long forgotten. Only a Romantic-era revival brought them back into anyone's conscious.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Oct 2018  #323
Published by Polish USA diaspora (just go google for materials) > Sarmatian Review >

Sarmatian Review is an English language peer reviewed academic journal on Slavistics, which is the study of culture, history, and societies of Slavic nations (located in Central, Eastern and Southern Europe) published by the Polish Institute of Houston at Rice University three times a year in January, April, and September

source: wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian_Review

You know, these people aren`t romantics. They honor their ancestors and care for future of their children.
jon357 65 | 13,636    
1 Oct 2018  #324
Sarmatian Review

About as authentic as FLW calling his house Taliesin.

ancestors

Probably a very wide spread of people.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Oct 2018  #325
You are not familiar with facts, I see.

Old records covering entire Europe and not only Europe with records about Sarmatians. Science even proving how all Europeans were Serbs in past. Some sort of Serbs. Sarmatians = Serbians.
jon357 65 | 13,636    
1 Oct 2018  #326
all Europeans were Serbs in past.

That's certainly not true. D :-D Serbs are Serbs, Sarmatians were Sarmatians, Poles are Poles, and not all Europeans were/are any of these.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
1 Oct 2018  #327
I told you nicely- some sort of Serbs. Balkan and Lusatian Serbs just keep using Sarmatian name in its local original native forms. We say SRBI and Lusatians say SERBYA. Poles most probably used form of SZCZERB for themselves. So all Europeans used some different forms of name Serb. We are all on our own and we are all natives. Native Serbs.
G (undercover)    
1 Oct 2018  #328
It's all part of the romantic ideal of the early Nineteenth Century, a beautiful myth in its time, a beautiful myth now

I don't see anything "romantic" here and it's more realistic than the German made "version" that Slavs walked in out of nowhere in 6th century AD... and soon later they were inhabiting half of Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
1 Oct 2018  #329
Hmm...6th century?

This roman map from the early 2nd century shows Sarmatia...and they came from the East (not nowhere)...



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania

A much closer look...


Vlad1234 10 | 319    
1 Oct 2018  #330
This roman map from the early 2nd century shows Sarmatia...and they came from the East (not nowhere)...

Interesting. I never previously saw any map made by the Romans which would include modern Poland territory. I thought this area was never thoroughly explored by Romans. As well as any territory to the East of Reine. They described this area as terrible place covered by impassable thick forests and swamps. So, I wonder how could they make any map like this...



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