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Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?


strzyga 2 | 993
18 Jul 2012 #31
Are you implying that ALL the bearers of these hypothetical surnames left for Poland, and ALL subsequently had their surnames "polonised"?

actually, why not? :)

edit: I was late - Nicole has already explained it.
jon357 67 | 17,053
18 Jul 2012 #32
Really? ALL of them? Why can't you admit you're making it up as you go along?

Exactly. It seems in fact that this is the real problem.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #33
Again, you know that because? As I stated, "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed." I also beforehand stated, "I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language." I further stated, "As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos ******" and could've been confused as "Rojos ******" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames."
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #34
actually, why not? :)

...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)
jon357 67 | 17,053
18 Jul 2012 #35
"I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms

On what linguistic grounds? None, since you are indeed fantasising about all this.

They are not Spanish names and there is no reason to think they are.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #36
...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)

And you know this because? Whole families were murdered and had evidence of their existence destroyed in the Crusades, Inquisition, etc..
strzyga 2 | 993
18 Jul 2012 #37
...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)

but since all the records were destroyed, you have none whatever evidence that it wasn't so, do you? :)

edit: late again... Nicole is faster each time :)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #38
Magdalena: ...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)
but since all the records were destroyed, you have none whatever evidence that it wasn't so, do you? :)

I stated only that "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed."

On what linguistic grounds? None, since you are indeed fantasising about all this.

They are not Spanish names and there is no reason to think they are.

I explained that they could be Polonized bastardizations of Spanish surnames:

"Soto Name Meaninghabitational name from any of numerous places named Soto or El Soto, from soto 'grove', 'small wood' (Latin saltus).Castilianized spelling of Asturian-Leonese Sotu, a habitational name from a town so named in Asturies.Castilianized spelling of the Galician equivalent, Souto."

(Plural is Sotos)

Soto --> zagajnik --> shrubbery

Sotos --> gaje --> groves

But hang on...

saltus --> las --> forest

Czarnecki:

Czarnecki Name MeaningPolish and Jewish (from Poland): habitational name for someone from a place called Czarnca in Kielce voivodeship, or any of the various places called Czarnocin or Czarnia, all named with Polish czarny 'black'.

"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being forests with a name such is, e.g., Sotos Negros (Czarne Gaje).

czerwien --> red of -->rojo de

This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up, or she just confused "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" when she typed for About.com. Humans are imperfect.

Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #39
Whole families were murdered and had evidence of their existence destroyed in the Crusades, Inquisition, etc..

I can believe the murdering part, but I can't see officers of the Inquisition or the crusaders ferreting round for people's personal correspondence, household bills or birth, marriage, and death records in order to destroy it all. They would have been too busy doing that to actually find time to kill anyone. ;-)

but since all the records were destroyed, you have none whatever evidence that it wasn't so, do you? :)

But were the records all destroyed? ;-)

The Spaniards wouldn't have wanted proof that Jews who didn't believe in Jesus were ever in existence in Spain.

If that is so, why do all know about medieval Spanish Jews and admire their huge achievements? I'm serious.

You can be really evil and Anti Semitic.

I probably can (never tried to), but I am not. I am simply not kowtowing to whatever you say just because you call yourself a Jew. Your being whatever ethnicity / nationality / religion has absolutely nothing to do with being automatically right on any subject.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #40
So, are you going to examine the Blacks, Blackwoods, Blackgroves and Redgroves next? It's exactly the same story, isn't it? Aren't they all Spanish Jews who emigrated to the UK/US via Poland?

Not all of them, but the only Spaniards who would've fled into Poland (and I didn't even think about the Mohammedians and Protestants; but besides Mohammedians and Protestants--though I doubt that many of them would've fled into Poland--the only ones who'd've fled into Poland) with names like "Sotos", etc. are Sephardic Jews fleeing the Inquisition or perhaps even the fall of Constantinople.

Nickidewbear: The Spaniards wouldn't have wanted proof that Jews who didn't believe in Jesus were ever in existence in Spain.

If that is so, why do all know about medieval Spanish Jews and admire their huge achievements? I'm serious.

The Inquisition didn't begin fully until 1492, and some escaped the Inquisition.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #41
By suggesting that the Spaniards wouldn't have dared to try to wipe out the records of the very people that they wanted to wipe out of existence,

Oh dear. I never said they wouldn't have dared, I said they wouldn't have had the time. Logistics, pure and simple.
Also, the didn't want to wipe them out of existence, they wanted to make sure that any Spanish Jews earlier converted to Catholicism stayed that way. It's not quite the same thing. And believe me, I know my history and I do know it was no laughing matter either way. OK?

hijacking this thread; which was about whether "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" could've come from bastardized or Polonized forums of, respectively, "Czarnegaje" and "Sotonegros", "Sotorojos" , etc.

We hijacked the thread by repeatedly telling you that your theory is extremely far-fetched to say the least?
jon357 67 | 17,053
18 Jul 2012 #42
whether "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" could've come from bastardized or Polonized forums of, respectively, "Czarnegaje" and "Sotonegros", "Sotorojos" , etc.

I think we can say that we've established they don't. Nor are they Spanish place names?
strzyga 2 | 993
18 Jul 2012 #43
whether "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" could've come from bastardized or Polonized forums of, respectively, "Czarnegaje" and "Sotonegros", "Sotorojos" , etc.

No, they couldn't. But anyway, thank you for one of the most entertaining threads I've ever read on this forum. And good night.
Hipis - | 227
18 Jul 2012 #44
I don't see how sotos could be mispronounced as rojos. Totally different pronunciation altogether.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Jul 2012 #45
Nickidewbear,I wouldn't say they hijacked your thread because for the most part it stayed on topic.Disagreeing with you is not hijacking a thread,if your going to make the claim you have,people are going to debate it.
Hipis - | 227
18 Jul 2012 #46
I've argued with Harry long enough so yes, I know what I'm letting myself in for lol

The Jews were expelled from Spain at the end of the 15th century. It was around the 15th century that noble families in Poland started adopting surnames. The practice didn't spread to ordinary people until around the 17th century with the Jews in Poland being one of the last groups to adopt the practice widely so it is highly unlikely that the Czarnecki surname was "imported" into Poland from Spain in any way, shape or form on this timing alone. Furthermore the adopting of surnames in Spain varied widely from region to region and given that the Jews in Spain, whilst being pretty well assimilated in Spanish society, adopted tradition jewish naming practices eg Dunash ben Labrat, Solomon ibn Gabirol, Yehuda Halevi, etc etc so if any Jews who left Spain then subsequently found themselves in Poland they more than likely would have had traditional Jewish surnames if they had any at all and certainly not names of a toponymic nature.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #47
Nickidewbear,I wouldn't say they hijacked your thread because for the most part it stayed on topic.Disagreeing with you is not hijacking a thread,if your going to make the claim you have,people are going to debate it.

Did you read delphadomine's claims about me, etc.; Magdalena's delegitimizations of the Inquisition, etc.; and all their claiming that I'm just a troll, etc.?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Jul 2012 #48
Nickidewbear,you brought up the inquisition and she didn't delegitimize it.You really need to read what was said.most of the posts have dealt with your topic.When you introduce other issues to support your claim,people are going to respond to that.I'm not going to debate this with you,it hasn't been hijacked.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #49
I did read it and that's why I got so angry about it. She said that the surnames never existed. I asked her how she knew and pointed out that records which could've testified to the existence of those surnames may well have been destroyed. She said that there weren't even any records, thus delegitimizing that the Spanish would wipe out any records of any people whom they wanted to destroy.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Jul 2012 #50
Did you read post 55?
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #51
Yes, I did; and it only proves my point.

By suggesting that the Spaniards wouldn't have dared to try to wipe out the records of the very people that they wanted to wipe out of existence

The Spaniards would've absolutely wiped out of existence and memory and Jew who refused to convert to Catholicism because they didn't want known that Non-Catholic (in their eyes, Non-Christian) Jews. And they sure had time for the murderous Inquisition, didn't they?

And Magdalena did hijack the thread with others (e.g., delphiadomine). The point of this thread was that "Sotosnegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may be the perhaps-no-longer-existant surnames that became "Czarnecki", "Czerwiński", etc.. when Sephardic Jews from Iberia and other places (even Italy, who approved and had forms of the Inquisition) fled into Poland (perhaps even as far back as the Crusades).
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #53
I did. I have no opposition to her disagreeing with me, but to her delegitimization of the Inquisition.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
18 Jul 2012 #54
disagreeing is not highjacking.

highjacking a thread is

Example: talking about highjacking a thread which is what you are doing as well, your highjacking your own thread instead of
leaving it as it was and just messaging our mods and so thus that is a highjack of the first kind!! :)

Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?

I know nothing about Jewish History, so I cant elaborate, but I have seen the name Czarnecki in alot of older records in the beginning

of my research with my family, in one peticular parish. I think it was polish roots..

if you need more information on Jewish there is a JRI poland site, its basically jewish, but very informative.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #55
As I said, I have no opposition to her disagreeing. Delegitimization of the Inquisition is what I have a problem with.

Example: talking about highjacking a thread which is what you are doing as well

I am not hijacking, and you can see that the mods support them and not me. I can't even bring up that names like "Sotonegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may well have been in destroyed records or become names like "Czarnegaje" and, in turn, "Czarnecki" (for "Czarnegaje", "Sotosnegros") and "Czerwiński" without getting told that know such records existed, that I even lie about my own family, etc..

Nickidewbear: Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?

I frequent JewishGen, but thank you for your suggestion.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Jul 2012 #56
Nickidewbear,I have done nothing but defend you on your other thread and now because I don't agree with what you said about Magdelena,means I support them against you,You can say what you want,but I am fair and whether you agree with me or not,I have to admit,that that is offensive,what you have just said about us mods and I don't think I deserve it,Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at yourself.If am wrong I will be the first to admit it and I can be wrong.If I were to be wrong,it still wouldn't mean that I support the others against you.Just as I defend your right to your opinions,I defend theirs.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
18 Jul 2012 #57
I frequent JewishGen,

just seems like you would get more of a answer to your request from a site that deals with jewish surnames Vs Polish forum, not that

there wouldnt be someone who would come along and answer this question eventually, but I think you will have more sucess/less stress
on the subject.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #58
You can say that I'm being offensive all that you want, but I already told you that I have no opposition to her disagreement except that she delegitimizes the Inquisition by legitimizing an aspect of it. Also, you never addressed what delphadomine and jon357 did.

[Patrycja19]

Nickidewbear: I frequent JewishGen,

just seems like you would get more of a answer to your request from a site that deals with jewish surnames Vs Polish forum, not that

there wouldnt be someone who would come along and answer this question eventually, but I think you will have more sucess/less stress
on the subject.[/quote]
I've seen what they said, but keep in mind that many Jews adopted and even created Polish (Polish-Jewish) surnames.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Jul 2012 #59
And I said that you're saying that I am against you.and she didn't delegitimize the inquisition and if we did a poll,I'm sure others would agree,She never said the inquisition didn't happen.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #60
I'm not worried about what the majority who go to do evil think. And by delegitimizing one aspect of the Inquisition--e.g., the record destruction--, you delegitimize the whole of what happened: the Spaniards were out to destroy especially any Jews who weren't or who they didn't think were true Catholics, and thus looked to destroy any evidence--including records--of their existence; and Magdalena delegitimized that. Just because she doesn't like that records with names like "Sotosnegros" and "Sotosrojos" may well have once existed doesn't mean that the Spanish didn't destroy records--which may well have had names like "Sotosnegros" written on them.


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