The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Genealogy  % width posts: 110

Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?


Nickidewbear 23 | 584
16 Jul 2012 #1
Did Sephardic Jews fleeing into Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and Russia bring in "Czarnecki" and its variants? According to About.com Genealogy expert Kimberly Powell:

Definition: One who came from Czarnecki, a wooded place on the bank of a river (there are dozens of places named Czarnecki in Spain). This ancient surname originated in Asturias, Galicia, León, and Castile, according to the Instituto Genealógico e Histórico Latino-Americano.

Surname Origin: Spanish

Alternate Surname Spellings: SOTOS

genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/c/bl_name-CZARNECKI.htm

How do you like that? We Jews might've brought "Czarnecki" into Poland.
pawian 178 | 15,909
17 Jul 2012 #2
How do you like that?

I like it.

We Jews might've brought "Czarnecki" into Poland.

They did or didn`t. Actually, who cares?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
17 Jul 2012 #3
Czarnecki goes well with the first name Nicole. Has a nice sequence of sounds.
jon357 67 | 16,854
17 Jul 2012 #4
there are dozens of places named Czarnecki in Spain

Perhaps you can provide a map reference for one of the so-called 'dozens'?

The meaning of the name is obvious RO anyone who speaks Polish.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
17 Jul 2012 #5
Perhaps you can provide a map reference for one of the so-called 'dozens'?

I provided the link. As I said, Sephardic Jews probably brought it in to Spain; which is important because then it would give even less excuses for any Anti Semitism in Poland and among Poles, especially since some of the "marranos" (Anusim) may have been Messianic Jewish Catholics and otherwise Messianic Jews whose conversions were not taken seriously.
jon357 67 | 16,854
17 Jul 2012 #6
I provided the link

Which actually says nothing. Czarnecki is not, repeat not, the name of 'dozens of places in Spain'. Nor is it a surname with Spanish connections.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
17 Jul 2012 #7
And you're sure that "Czarnia" isn't a Polonized form of "Negro" or something?
jon357 67 | 16,854
17 Jul 2012 #8
What? That doesn't make sense. Czarny means black but has nothing to do with Spain. Plenty of people whose names Derive from White, Green etc. Nothing to do with Spain either, and not a 'polonised' form of anything Spanish.

Anyway, apart from one sentence on a dodgy website, what makes you think there are 'dozens of places in Spain' called Czarnecki.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
17 Jul 2012 #9
Anyway, apart from one sentence on a dodgy website, what makes you think there are 'dozens of places in Spain' called Czarnecki.

If you have a problem with it, ask Kimberly Powell.
jon357 67 | 16,854
17 Jul 2012 #10
Who? Surely you aren't basing your theory from one sentence on a dodgy website written by an obscure about.com writer who thinks that 'there are dozens of places named Czarnecki in Spain' and therefore doesn't know what she's writing about?

Or more pertinently, if that's all you can actually find, why start a thread here?

Some more sources that there are 'dozens of places named Czarnecki in Spain' or admit your theory is wrong.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
17 Jul 2012 #11
Instituto Genealógico e Histórico Latino-Americano.

Lols,who?
Dont dig too hard in that direction though,more and more archives are being uncovered in Spain that point to a lot of supposed Jews and Christians having actually been Arab Muslims :)

strange that the only references on line to los instituto come in questionable name meanings websites,no actual on line presence at all for the institute......

There most certainly are not dozens of places with a Polish name in Spain. Czarnecki .....bosquecillo cerca de un rio, not really sure how that works etymologicaly?
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Jul 2012 #12
genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/c/bl_name-CZERWINSKI.htm

Try this on for size ;-)
Seriously, check it out.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #13
That's quite funny. If about.com paid somebody to write that they should ask for their money back.

And as I asked you before, "And you're sure that "Czarnia" isn't a Polonized form of "Negro" or something?" Let's try Ancestry.com with Google Translate, which is basic but useful, for size:

"Soto Name Meaninghabitational name from any of numerous places named Soto or El Soto, from soto 'grove', 'small wood' (Latin saltus).Castilianized spelling of Asturian-Leonese Sotu, a habitational name from a town so named in Asturies.Castilianized spelling of the Galician equivalent, Souto."

(Plural is Sotos)

Soto --> zagajnik --> shrubbery

Sotos --> gaje --> groves

But hang on...

saltus --> las --> forest

Czarnecki:

Czarnecki Name MeaningPolish and Jewish (from Poland): habitational name for someone from a place called Czarnca in Kielce voivodeship, or any of the various places called Czarnocin or Czarnia, all named with Polish czarny 'black'.

"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being forests with a name such is, e.g., Sotos Negros (Czarne Gaje).
Barney 15 | 1,476
18 Jul 2012 #14
"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being a forest with that name.

What a load of rubbish

There is no way Soto can be made to mean black
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #15
"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being forests with a name such is, e.g., Sotos Negros (Czarne Gaje).

How about Czerwiński then? If you believe what the site says about Czarnecki, you should believe what it says about Czerwiński (i.e., the same thing). ;-)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #16
"Czarnecki" could've easily been (for a lack of a better term) a bastarized form of "Czarnegaje" or "Czarnegaje". So, let's look at Czerwiński:

Definition: One who came from Czerwinski, a wooded place on the bank of a river (there are dozens of places named Czerwinski in Spain). This ancient surname originated in Asturias, Galicia, León, and Castile, according to the Instituto Genealógico e Histórico Latino-Americano.

Surname Origin: Spanish

Alternate Surname Spellings: SOTOS

Czerwinski Name MeaningPolish (Czerwi(e)nski): habitational name for someone from a place called Czerwin in P{l-}ock voivodeship, Czerwionka, Czerwonka, or other places in Poland named with czerwien ‘red’.
Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4

czerwien --> red of -->rojo de

This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up, or she just confused "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" when she typed for About.com. Humans are imperfect.

And when the Sotos/Czarnecki immigrated to the US, he changed his name to Forrest Gump...

You laugh, but I'd like to see when you're perfect. At least I researched to make my argument.
Barney 15 | 1,476
18 Jul 2012 #17
czerwien --> red of -->rojo de

This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up

That is just mad logic
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #18
Facts: there are no Czarnecki and / or Czerwiński place names in Spain. There is no connection whatsoever between Czarnecki and Sotos. And, last but not least, as a native speaker I can assure you that there is no way the surname Czarnecki could be a corruption of Czarnegaje, especially that Polish would not really allow for a surname like Czarnegaje in the first place.
jon357 67 | 16,854
18 Jul 2012 #19
This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up

That is one of the strangest things I've read here. It's either trolling or something far more disturbed.

Czerwiński as a name suggests the ancient town of Czerwińsk nad Wisła. Not 'dozens of places named Czerwinski in Spain' !
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #20
czarneccy.strefa.pl/html/etymology.html

If you are really interested.

Also, if we follow the logic, it would only prove that the Czarneckis are Spanish, but not in any way that they are Jewish, unless Spanish = automatically Jewish ;-)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #21
Facts: there are no Czarnecki and / or Czerwiński place names in Spain.

And how come it wouldn't if it allows for place and other names such as:

Czernacze...Czarnca..Carncza... Czarcza...Czarnnecz... Carncza...Czarnca

and

Czarna Rzeka

?

Various formats and corruptions can happen in any language.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #22
Various formats and corruptions can happen in any language.

Oh, but the forms and corruptions always stay true to the character of the given language, you see... And surnames are not place names and have evolved differently.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #23
I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos".
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Jul 2012 #24
The whole stuff with endless relatives being smeared is rather disturbing though...

Yeah, I don't like that part either. They couldn't have all been that bad. They look pleasant enough in the photos Nicole posted (not that I really endorse publishing pictures of your relatives online).

Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos".

Sotosnegros and Sotosrojos have exactly 0 Google hits. I just checked. Are you implying that ALL the bearers of these hypothetical surnames left for Poland, and ALL subsequently had their surnames "polonised"?

Polonisation of some foreign surnames did happen, but it was not usually a translation of the meaning, merely an accommodation to the phonetics of the target language. There is nothing difficult to pronounce about Sotosnegros or Sotosrojos for a Polish person. But we both know that these surnames do not exist anyway ;-)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #25
Yeah, I don't like that part either. They couldn't have all been that bad. They look pleasant enough in the photos Nicole posted (not that I really endorse publishing pictures of your relatives online).

Looks can be deceiving, and that's not what this thread is about.
jon357 67 | 16,854
18 Jul 2012 #26
Indeed. It's about a rather wild claim that Czarnecki, Czerwiński etc are in fact Spanish.

Maybe black is white and white is black?
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #27
Indeed. It's about a rather wild claim that Czarnecki, Czerwiński etc are in fact Spanish.

I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language.

Sotosnegros and Sotosrojos have exactly 0 Google hits. I just checked. Are you implying that ALL the bearers of these hypothetical surnames left for Poland, and ALL subsequently had their surnames "polonised"?

It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed.
jon357 67 | 16,854
18 Jul 2012 #28
I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language.

Nothing whatsoever suggests that this is the case here.
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Jul 2012 #29
The problem is that you think that I'm suggesting that the Poles or only the Poles caused a possible bastardization of "Sotosrojos", "Sotosnegros", etc.. As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames.
jon357 67 | 16,854
18 Jul 2012 #30
The problem is that you think that I'm suggesting that the Poles or only the Poles caused a possible bastardization of "Sotosrojos", "Sotosnegros", etc..

No. The only problem is that this is absolute nonsense. We've established beyond any reasonable doubt that there's no suggestion that these names are polonised Spanish words.


Home / Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.