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What certificate is this?; birth certificate from the greek catholic church


TheOther 6 | 3,818
13 Jan 2010 #31
Is that the ultimate irony or what?

Why? I believe that to most people (in the west?) heritage is not really important. And honestly, what difference does it make whether your g-g-g-grandfather grew up in Poland, Germany or Russia, and whether he felt like a German, Russian or Pole? Some people here on PF take heritage, national pride and history way too serious, IMHO.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
13 Jan 2010 #32
Why? I believe that to most people (in the west?) heritage is not really important.

Define in the west? Because I am proud of both my Polish and Iirish heritage. Don't know anyone who isn't.

[b]And honestly, what difference does it make whether your g-g-g-grandfather grew up in Poland, Germany or Russia, and whether he felt like a German, Russian or Pole? [/b]

I'm sorry what site did you sign up to chat on. I was under the impression this was Polish genealogy forum. Not that I or anyone else on this forum would disriminate against another heritage asking questions. IMHO

Some people here on PF take heritage, national pride and history way too serious, IMHO.

guilty

History tell us that although Poland may have been removed from the map temporarily (who makes the maps anyway...the people in power do) it never truly went away.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
13 Jan 2010 #33
Define in the west

European countries west of the Iron Curtain, north American countries, Australia and New Zealand. Did I forget one? You know what I mean.

Don't know anyone who isn't.

Well, I don't know anyone personally who is. People are interested in their heritage, yes, but "proud"?

I was under the impression this was Polish genealogy forum

Then you're under the wrong impression - this is the Genealogy section, a small part of Polish Forums... ;)

Why is it so important to you whether your ancestors called themselves ethnic Poles, Germans or Russians? What difference does that make for your genealogical research? Genealogy has nothing to do with "I'm proud to be a <insert your favourite nationality here>".
markskibniewski 3 | 200
13 Jan 2010 #34
Why is it so important to you whether your ancestors called themselves ethnic Poles, Germans or Russians? What difference does that make for your genealogical research?

Probably because several of my descendants were killed during the Russian occupation/partisian whatever you prefer. I have living cousins in Poland and the U.K. that have very biased views of both Germany and Russia. I personally do not but that probably is because I was not directly influenced by the war. It is funny I have one relative who hates the Russians understandably (her husband was killed by the Russians while they were hiding in the woods while they were looting thier farm) while her son has fond memories of the German soldiers who played with him when they temporarily seized thier farm and used it as a base camp.

It is not what my ancestors called themselves (they were Polish) It is when others call them German or Russian. AS I said guilty.

As for genealogical research it matters less, but I will let you know. Before I found this site and really became interested in tracing my heritage I consulted several Russian sites as well as 2 consulates as I know my Grandfather was born in Poland under the Russian partisian. They all directed me to look in Poland for the answers.

I was curious however about missiing records that could still be in Germany? Is there a site or place online where I could learn more about this subject. It seems my search is coming slowly to a close as the records just don't exist anymore.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
13 Jan 2010 #35
markskibniewski

I doubt that you will find records from the Russian Empire in Germany. The catholic archive in Regensburg handed over their church books to Poland a few years ago and is closed now, so the advice they gave you to look for missing records in Poland was a good one.

You will find that many records were destroyed during WW2 or simply disappeared after the Red Army looted the churches close to the end of the war. There are rumours for example that the LDS was invited to renovate and scan 400.000+ (!!!) stolen church books in Moscow, before they disappear forever in some dubious archive. There's a good chance that the records you're looking for are amongst the books I just mentioned. We'll have to wait and see when (and if) the Mormons come up with the relevant microfilms in the future.

Some web sites that might be of interest for you:

familysearch.org
odessa3.org/index.html
ezab.org/d/bframe.html
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
13 Jan 2010 #36
We'll have to wait and see when (and if) the Mormons come up with the relevant microfilms in the future.

The Mormons would be able to help people the world over, if the Polish authorities hadn't put a stop to them recording various records.

There is a polite message concerning this at the Family Search website.
I certainly wish them better luck when it comes to records held in Russian archives.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
13 Jan 2010 #37
Thank you for the sites , I will definately look them over.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
13 Jan 2010 #38
if the Polish authorities hadn't put a stop to them recording various records

Not only the Polish authorities, but many others, too. They pretend to be against the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead, but in reality they are just afraid to lose the profits from research and document copying. Sadly, genealogy has become big business.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
14 Jan 2010 #39
And honestly, what difference does it make whether your g-g-g-grandfather grew up in Poland, Germany or Russia, and whether he felt like a German, Russian or Pole?

I see your point and there is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

However, if the Poles who lived during the partition of Poland - in other words during the time Poland officially didn't exist - if those Poles hadn't taken their heritage "way too seriously" as they did - would Poland exist today? Honestly?
TheOther 6 | 3,818
14 Jan 2010 #40
would Poland exist today?

There are too many other factors involved. Without the Serbian killer assassinating Archduke Franz Ferdinand, without the stupidity of the German Kaiser, without the Treaty of Versailles and without a whole lot of luck immediately after WW1, Poland probably wouldn't exist even today.
McCoy 27 | 1,275
14 Jan 2010 #41
would Poland exist today?

take it easy guys. dude just asked about the meaning of a few words on one piece of paper (;
OP escapee3 8 | 63
14 Jan 2010 #42
Hee... light blue touch paper... stand back...

It's been an interesting discussion, though...
jwojcie 2 | 763
14 Jan 2010 #43
About mothers name, if it is really Osina, then at first it don't seems to have much sense, because it currently is used rather for surnames. Anyway, osina means some kind of soft wood (probably from poplar). Another interesting thing is that Osina is also a village near Tyszowce (supposedly birth place of the guy from the certificate).

Anyway, if you are really planning some trip in autumn (better not later than september), then you can try to visit churches there. They usually have quite old archives regarding births (I suppose you can try to send them a letter first with copy of your certificate).

Good luck :-)
OP escapee3 8 | 63
14 Jan 2010 #44
Thanks... we were planning late October, but now I'm wondering if we really should go earlier. Will I need my own snow plough?

Is it definitely Tyszowce? He has a half sister, and we're pretty sure she was born in Tarnawce, near Przemyśl, so we assumed Iwan would be from there also. Of course, he's older than this sister, so it's quite possible the family moved from Tyszowce after Iwan was born. It's important to me as I would like to visit Iwan's birth place.

Thanks again for your help...

steve
jwojcie 2 | 763
14 Jan 2010 #45
Is it definitely Tyszowce?

I have no idea, another poster wrote that. Personally I couldn't encode that part.

Thanks... we were planning late October, but now I'm wondering if we really should go earlier. Will I need my own snow plough?

No, I wouldn't expect snow in October :-) But if you will have bad luck, than in October could be a little chilly. But if you are lucky and the weather is fine then it can be quite beautiful autumn here. Maybe this will help you decide:

pogoda.onet.pl/0,3,38,,,,warszawa,miasto_klimat.html
strzyga 2 | 993
14 Jan 2010 #46
if it is really Osina,

I'm not sure. I can read contemporary Cyrylic but this is written with the old calligraphy, which is sometimes hard to read. Besides, there are not enough words to properly compare the letters. But if the first letter of the mother's name isn't O, then I don't know what else it could be. I tried D but it doesn't make sense, as the second letter is "c"(Cyrylic for s).

For me it looks like Osinia.
I know it would be a rare name but stranger things have happened, and the last name Biel doesn't sound Polish either - the mother might have been of Byelorussian origin and I don't know Byelorussian names well enough to be sure.

Is it definitely Tyszowce? He has a half sister, and we're pretty sure she was born in Tarnawce

Could be either... But I'm for Tarnawce on this one, mostly by the look of the second letter. "Y" in Cyrylic looks different. Unfortunately, again, there's no other "y" to compare it to.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
14 Jan 2010 #47
Steve, I can't currently take a close look at this doc and I'm afraid I can't tell you that much more, than were already said (good job, Mac! ;) )

That's indeed a birth certificate from a Михальчик.

I hope this any helped. :) I'll later take a better look at this and probably google something.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
14 Jan 2010 #48
take it easy guys. dude just asked about the meaning of a few words on one piece of paper (;

I agree, I'll let Sasha and others here keep providing him with some excellent information. It's really quite amazing how much "smaller" the world has gotten since the internet came about.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
14 Jan 2010 #49
February 8th 1918.

What makes you think it's a February?

As for Osina - it's a good guess since Osina makes sense as a name of the tree ("aspen") but I've never heard of that name and as you might have noticed there was a horizontal line or two "-" that's how older generation used to mark lowercase т (t - that's where Cyrillic coincides with Latin), it could also be й (j).
OP escapee3 8 | 63
14 Jan 2010 #50
Once again I'm overwhelmed by how helpful you all are.

Of course, if I find after 17 weeks of Polish lessons I now must start afresh with Russian (or Ukrainian), then I'm the one wibbling incoherently in the corner :-)

Seriously, I guess I'm committed to learning Polish now, and if it turns out I'm going to the Ukraine I'm just going to have to talk Polish at them :-)
strzyga 2 | 993
14 Jan 2010 #51
What makes you think it's a February?

I admit it was a miss. I didn't know that October was also called "zhovten" (in Polish that would be "żółcień", a beautiful name indeed), so just by comparing all the months' names to the writing I thought "fiewral'" to be closest. Kudoz to you for this one.

As for Osina - it's a good guess since Osina makes sense as a name of the tree ("aspen") but I've never heard of that name and as you might have noticed there was a horizontal line or two "-" that's how older generation used to mark lowercase т (t - that's where Cyrillic coincides with Latin), it could also be й (j).

Could be "t" but I can't think of any name that would fit then. Besides, "t" in "Kostia" is written as "m".

The fourth letter could be also cyrylic "g".
As for the ending, it's -ji therefore in Nominative would be -ja - and that's fine - before WWII some Polish female names were spelled and pronounced this way, e.g. Zofija, especially in the east of Poland.

So - Osinja, Asinja - ??? Might be some Eastern name. The Eastern Orthodox believers have a lot of names which sound strange to Poles (Eastern saints' names). But I can't Google anything similar.

The name Michalczyk is quite popular in Poland too.

And what's your take on Tyszowce/Tarnawce?
Sasha 2 | 1,083
15 Jan 2010 #52
Besides, "t" in "Kostia" is written as "m".

Good catch! That is why people sometimes put a horizontal bar above "m" while writing Cyrillic to emphasize that is it is actually "t".

I can't think of any name that would fit then

Neither can I but given that the family was pretty religious they could pick some peculiar names. My guesses were "Osia" or "Kiya" (depending on what is the first letter "o" or it was just a part of "k").

The Eastern Orthodox believers have a lot of names which sound strange to Poles (Eastern saints' names)

Greek-Catholic is actually closer to Catholic church and traditions rather than to Orthodox ones. :)

And what's your take on Tyszowce/Tarnawce?

Did I miss anything? Where was it? In the birth cert I didn't find a word about it.
OP escapee3 8 | 63
15 Jan 2010 #53
Sasha, there is a town called Śliwnica about 20km or so from Przemyśl... is it possible your Slivnici is the same place?

steve
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Jan 2010 #54
That is why people sometimes put a horizontal bar above "m" while writing Cyrillic to emphasize that is it is actually "t".

Thanks for this one! I've always wondered what the dashes are for and where you should put them.

"Osia" or "Kiya" (depending on what is the first letter "o" or it was just a part of "k").

Kinia? But again, if you look at the K in Kostia, it's very different.

Greek-Catholic is actually closer to Catholic church and traditions rather than to Orthodox ones. :)

It is, but they use strange names too.

Did I miss anything? Where was it? In the birth cert I didn't find a word about it.

It's the place of birth of Iwan Michalczyk.

there is a town called Śliwnica about 20km or so from Przemyśl... is it possible your Slivnici is the same place?

There are two Śliwnicas in Poland, close to each other:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śliwnica
OP escapee3 8 | 63
15 Jan 2010 #55
There are two Śliwnicas in Poland, close to each other:

Wow, and one of those is a mere 2km from Tarnawce.

I've just found out I'm to be sent Iwan's half-sister's certificate (from the USA). Do you think I'll be pushing my luck if I ask you guys to look at that too when it comes?

steve
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Jan 2010 #56
2km from Tarnawce

Could it be Tarnawka? "Tarnawce" would be an inflected form - "born in Tarnawka" - "urodzony w Tarnawce".
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnawka_(powiat_przemyski)

I've just found out I'm to be sent Iwan's half-sister's certificate (from the USA). Do you think I'll be pushing ny luck if I ask you guys to look at that too when it comes?

No harm in trying ;)
It's interesting. A detective-like stuff. Proves that internet forums can actually be useful :)
ectuohy
16 Jan 2010 #57
Hi,

Your certificate was definitely issued here:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aliwnica_%28Ukraina%29

it's a village called Slyvnytsya, now located in Ukraine.
strzyga 2 | 993
16 Jan 2010 #58
definitely

Why are you so sure?
OP escapee3 8 | 63
16 Jan 2010 #59
Certainly the Wiki Ukrainian spelling Сливниця is very close to that on the certificate stamp (differing only that the last letter is a 'backward R' rather than an i on the stamp).

Thanks again, all, for your continued efforts...
strzyga 2 | 993
16 Jan 2010 #60
Of course it is very close because it's how Śliwnica would be spelt in Ukrainian and with the Cyryllic alphabet. All the three Śliwnica names are exactly the same. The difference in the last letter that you mention is just declension - the stamp says: Gr.-kat. Uriad Parochialnyj w Sliwnici - Greek-Catholic Parish Office in Śliwnica - "in Śliwnica" translates as "w Sliwnici", the ending is declined so it changes.

The "backward R" letter is "ja" in Cyryllic.

The certificate was issued in 1944, state borders hadn't been established yet, there wasn't any Poland nor Ukraine yet. Ukrainian was spoken in the whole area and as far as I know it was the language of the Greek-Catholic church, hence the language of the stamp. You need to check which of the three Śliwnicas had a parochial office (was the seat of a Gr.-Cath. parish). Wikipedia doesn't give the information, you need to look elsewhere. If I were you I'd try to email gmina offices to which the Polish Śliwnicas belong asking if there is/was a Greek-Catholic parish in them. Another way would be to look up the web pages of Greek-Cath. church in Poland.


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