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If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"...


Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #151
I believe you are German with Polish roots, with which you have a psychological problem.

Wrong. BB is as German as it gets - we sometimes joke about his Polish roots, but that's
only joking.

Otherwise what,s your interest on PF ?

It may seem strange to you, but some people are actually interested in the culture,
history and customs of their neighbours. BB is simply a German Polonophile :)

Look at this forum - Brits, Americans, Irish, Scandinavians, Russians, Greeks, Spaniards,
Israelis, Czechs, Hungarians, Serbs and God knows how many other different nationalities.
It's the magnetic force of our culture that people are so attracted to - we can't help it :)

And this is your problem....... ancestors from both sides.

How is that a problem?
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #152
How is that a problem?

Well if you had ancestry that were on opposing sides in a conflict. To which side would you give your allegiance to ?

But of this we can not be sure because no one here gives away their backgrounds, who they really are. Although I might add that some with English names on PF are most definitely Poles hiding or trying to hide their backgrounds. Why ? ..... I don,t know.
Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #153
To which side would you give your allegiance to ?

To the side to which I'd feel allegiance to. If I had felt German, I would have fought
for Germany. If I had felt Polish, I would have fought for Poland. Simple as that.

Of course there are many factors that could influence the decision of an individual
(and we've already discussed some of them) but the general rule stays the same.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
3 Mar 2010 #155
OK. Nathan, I've read this essay by Venclova. But still didn't understand why you can consider Mickiewicz so mediocre personality.

Oh, don't worry: he has no clue either.

If I hadn't a clue, I wouldn't have said it. But I have to agree that my words were too harsh in my statements about Mickiewich. Frankly, I was disappointed by the way he considered Lithuanian language and culture as something of the past that has no power to develop and grow. There were other Lithuanian intellectuals at the time, who refused to let their culture sink into oblivion and wrote exclusively in their native language. But it was his choice and I can't judge him. It seems he had so much more deeper he couldn't openly say because of the censure. So, I take back my rude expressions on Adam Mickiewich and hope he will pardon my profanity. Peace, bros.
Bzibzioh
3 Mar 2010 #156
So, I take back my rude expressions on Adam Mickiewich and hope he will pardon my profanity. Peace, bros.

Nice recovery, Nathan. Mickiewicz is considered a genius so calling him a mediocre personality is just ignorant. Peace.
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #157
^^^^^^^^THE HITMAN^^^^^^^^

Morsczi_Purtk:
Kashubs were, are and will be Slavs and so I'm.

Ah !! Now I get it. You are Kashubian decent, but shamed by the fact your ancestors were in the wehrmacht.

This guy is great, isn't he :D? Do you really think that if I would be "ashamed" that a few of my ancestors were in the Wehrmacht, I would really tell it voluntarily to everybody on this forum?

Morsczi_Purtk:
I didn't say that you were a communist

And I didn,t say........ Morsczi_Purtk:
said the (Hit)man who thought "Volksdeutsche" were ethnic Kashubs etc. that were in the Wehrmacht.

You didn't said it directly, but you've posted a link that showed us what you were actually thinking.

... read his replies, it,s not my intention to be superior to him, it is him who is trying to belittle me, then one minute he guarantees, then he,s not sure......

I don't "belittle" you, you belittle yourself with all the wrong stuff you are posting here. If you want, I can quote all your mistakes, no problem. By the way, are you crying again Hitty? Where did all the strong genes from your (probably fictional) line that used to "execute Polish traitors" left? But don't worry, Uncel Morsczi will still give you a tissue.

so I,m beginning to doubt his argument.

Is your IQ really that low that you don't think about checking my arguments? If you would have done so, you wouldn't doubt.

that he was worse than I

Well, your writing is surly better then mine, but I never claimed that mine would be better. But we aren't talking about the writing Hitty. The topic is different, and you've admit serval times that you absolutly don't know anything about this issue, though you said you would.

After all, I believe people that offend on this forum are in reality weak, plus it,s against the rules.

I don't care what you are believing. Keep your hurt teenager feelings for yourself.

I personally believe he is only happy when someone gives him support, but not visa versa.

Tissue?

Mòrsczi Púrtk

P.S.:

Still haven,t answered my question.

Answer my questions.
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #158
Simple as that.

Of course there are many factors that could influence the decision of an individual

It can,t be that simple if there are many factors.

Do any of those factors include cowardice and treason ?

Hitty

Typical German juvenile behavior.

The only tears I have in my eyes is through laughter.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #159
Ooooh....it seems we got ourselves a little Germanophobe!
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #160
The only tears I have in my eyes is through laughter.

Glad you find it amusing, I,m not laughing. Are you ?

You seem to change your mood quick...

Morsczi_Purtk:
Hitty

Typical German juvenile behavior.

You were the one that started to call "beelzebub" "beezlebob" and now you are crying about that someone did the same thing to you. Haha. Typical German juvenile behavior? No, typical juvenile behavior. Just as we expected from a teenager with hurt feelings like you.

Mòrsczi Púrtk

P.S.:

Still haven,t answered my question.

THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #161
You seem to change your mood quick...

Yes, I have a sense of humor. All you have managed to do with your post, is to turn it into a vendetta against THE HITMAN, because you couldn,t hack the debate.

I find that quite amusing really, considering you,re an adult ???

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #162
...is to turn it into a vendetta against THE HITMAN...

You are perfect at playing the role of the poor, poor victim. I'm feeling sooo bad right now.

...because you couldn,t hack the debate.

It's pretty hard to "hack" a debate when you are discussing with somebody that is brilliant at avoiding the facts and has such a tiny knownledge about this issue like you.

Sorry if this peeves you, but thats life.

Mòrsczi Púrtk
Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #163
Do any of those factors include cowardice and treason ?

These are just two out of many factors that could influence the behaviour of
a given individual. You sound like these were the only reasons and that's
what I oppose to. When you called all those Poles who were drafted into Wehrmacht
"traitors" you made a very primitive and shallow generalization.
Cowardice and treason - yes, maybe in some cases they were the decisive factors,
however, I believe that it was only a tiny minority of cases.
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #164
I believe that it was only a tiny minority of cases.

ah!! you want to believe it was only a tiny minority.

I can,t recall using " all Poles " in my gen., but as you are saying all, then fine, let it be. It is still my sentiment because everyone knows on what side of the fence they stand. So all those who crossed that line, to me, are traitors.

For example; assuming you are Swedish, and Russia decide to declare war with you. Do you suddenly renounce your nationality and become Russian, taking arms and fight your own countryman ?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #165
For example; assuming you are Swedish, and Russia decide to declare war with you. Do you suddenly renounce your nationality and become Russian, taking arms and fight your own countryman ?

Well, depends on how you became Swedish.
Did you once left Russia to look for a better life in Sweden? Did you found it there? That is one interesting point to know. Important for your feeling of allegiance!

Or did strange people place your little town suddenly into another country to whom you can't feel any allegiance to because it wasn't your choice? Drawing new borders from far away?

And your loyalty to your own people leaves you only one choice?

What about all these prussian, austrian or russian Poles during the partitions....do you call them traitors to Prussia, Austria or Russia too? For preferring their own country under their own rule?

Taking up arms to fight for it?
Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #166
ah!! you want to believe it was only a tiny minority.

You want to believe they were traitors. You prefer to be judgemental and have low opinion
of people. I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt. That's the difference.

So all those who crossed that line, to me, are traitors.

That's what I thought. You like to see things black and white, but in the real life
things are seldom black and white.

Do you suddenly renounce your nationality and become Russian, taking arms and fight your own countryman ?

"Suddenly renounce and fight your countryman"? That was very rarely the case.

Generally, you sound to me like you would like to build-up your own confidence
and feel more worthy of respect, because your ancestors were heroes (according
to you) and all the Kashubians, Silesians, Highlanders etc. etc. who wered drafted
into the German army were traitors (according to you).
I have no idea why you need to build-up your feeling of self-worthiness in such way.
Oh, well - whatever rocks your boat I guess.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #167
because your ancestors were heroes (according
to you)

I doubt that.
I made the experience that people who really heard history through first hand know all about the many grey shadows...and wouldn't judge like that.

As it is it's the third generation late comers who dream up black and white video games like scenarios...the real ones (sadly leaving us) have much different stories to tell.
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #168
Torq, I absolutly agree with your post. But I have the slight feeling, that Hitty is simply not able to understand such complex things like that.

auf wiedersehen.

Auf Nimmerwiedersehen.

Mòrsczi Púrtk
Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #169
I doubt that.
I made the experience that people who really heard history through first hand know all about the many grey shadows...and wouldn't judge like that.

That's true. It takes some real life experience or hearing about it first hand to realize that.

As it is it's the third generation late comers who dream up black and white video games like scenarios...the real ones (sadly leaving us) have much different stories to tell.

I've just imagined a world where all the people who took part in the war died and took
their stories with them, and there were only THE HITMANS left on both sides - Polish
and German.

I don't think I like the world that I imagined...

Hitty is simply not able to understand such complex things like that.

Oh, I think he is - he sounds like an intelligent young man, with a little bit twisted
view of reality maybe (but that's nothing that a couple of months on PF wouldn't fix.)

;)
porzeczka - | 102
3 Mar 2010 #170
It seems he had so much more deeper he couldn't openly say because of the censure.

He wasn't forced to 'glorify' Polish culture and write in Polish. It was his preference. Why do you want him to be Lithuanian and feel Lithuanian so badly? He had dual identity, just like many people in those times. He was a Lithuanian (his local identity) because of the place of birth, but could be Ruthenian as well. So which culture Mickiewicz family in fact abandoned – Ruthenian or Lithuanian? He didn't even differentiate clearly between Ruthenian and Baltic Lithuanian language, and Lithuanian nationalism was based on linguistic identity (by this criterion, Mickiewicz was Polish). How many generations has to pass before a Ruthenian becomes Lithuanian, and a Lithuanian becomes Polish?
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #171
(but that's nothing that a couple of months on PF wouldn't fix.)

;)

It would be very great if that would work out...

Mòrsczi Púrtk

P.S.: Sorry that I'm posting again this link, but I thnik it got down a bit under the whole discussion:
wehrmacht-polacy.pl/index.html
(It's not a nazi site or something like that.) Please take a look at the biographies, they are really interessting, or should I say really sad :( ?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #172
Sorry, Morsczi, I have problems with that site....maybe it's the google translations but that sounds alot like the alibi what goes around now for decades.

If they were Germans they were as forced into the Wehrmacht as any other German youth of that time because of the conscription.
There were no ethnic Poles forced into the Wehrmacht as there were not ethnic Germans forced into the polish army.
And for being acknowledged as a German eligible for conscription you had to be able, healthy, male and your german passport OR in the cases of the lost territories after the Treaty of Versailles documents showing your german heritage, for those the Volkslisten were developed.

Of course, later in the war with the german troops now having access to nearly every german minority in many european countries and in dire need of more cannonfodder the requirements got lowered and lowered, now even once having a german shephard could help you along...;)

But still the principal did stand...you had to be German to get into the Wehrmacht.
The place for non-german volunteers was the Waffen-SS or other "Hilfstruppen"...

Also this "under duress" being nearly every second word....yes, everybody and it's grandmom (not Torqis) was after Germany lost of course now an anti-german resister. But think about it yourself how much of these stories were alibis needed to survive the after war chaos and how much of it had been true...

That site is biased and everything but honest and objective. I really thought that today after nearly 70 years after all that and Poles and Germans slowly reconciliating with each other we can stop these lies!

PS: And another thing to show how messed up everything then was...you feel as a Kashub being a proud Slav.
Günther Grass was (is) of kashubian heritage like you, I doubt he feels anything but fully German!
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #173
I have no idea why you need to build-up your feeling of self-worthiness in such way.

Well you surprise me Torq, now you,re a psychologist.

Torq, I absolutly agree with your post.

A creep, looking for an ally.

Bratwurst Boy

I did have an answer to your post 207, but it,s on hold due to the wisecracks.

To you all, it seems if someone on here does not comply with your opinions, then you chose to ridicule and discredit that person. You have neither the integrity, patience or culture to respect someone elses opinions ( no matter how right or wrong they may be ).

In fact some of you are very childish and immature.

I may be the first here to admit that I do not profess to know everything, unlike others here who seem to have this Polish tendency of being know alls. And if they are not Polish, then they certainly are not any better.

Anyway, it would be all to easy just not to log on here again, or to use another name, but I too like to amuse myself, so sorry guys............ I will still be around and if it,s just mud you want to throw around, carry on. I,m quite good at that game too.

Today it,s me, tomorrow it might be you.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #174
then you chose to ridicule and discredit that person.

Well, the sound makes the music or as we in Germany say: "Wie es in den Wald reinruft to schallt es heraus!"

You started this p*issing contest with calling people you know sh*it about generally "cowards and traitors", so don't cry if we take our time with you too!

Did you had asked or had been open for discussion we could have had a meaningful even informative discussion, but as it is you know all about it already! Right? Riiiiiiiiiight!
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #175
we could have had a meaningful even informative discussion,

Judging by your pathetic comments, I don,t think so.

p*issing

sh*it

About your level of intellect.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #176
About your level of intellect.

At least I have one!

What about the questions in #206. Care to show us your "intelligence"???
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
3 Mar 2010 #177
Bratwurst Boy...
When I was talking about that most Kashubs that were in the Wehrmacht were "forced" I've meant it like this:
After they had become German citizen, they waited until they became their "Einberufung" to the Wehrmacht. Because they knew it would have consequences for them if they would try to escape somewhere, they went to the Wehrbezirkskommando on the next day and were recruited later. What I had on my mind was that they did not came to the Wehrmacht first, they waited until the Wehrmacht came to them :).

Mòrsczi Púrtk
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #178
I understand.
What I meant was that there was not much difference between the Kashubs in Danzig or boys in Berlin or Hamburg...the punishments for draft dodging was brutal for all of them.
Matowy - | 295
3 Mar 2010 #179
Well you surprise me Torq, now you,re a psychologist.

It doesn't take a psychologist to see that you are insecure in your own self-worth, so you like to history and genealogy to to derive some sense of self and self-worth from your ancestors who you didn't know. Psychology? Barely. Your inferiority complex is very common and easily recognisable, as it is with many who allow ancestry to influence their self-perception and opinions.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
3 Mar 2010 #180
Bratwurst Boy

Butt, Morsczi_Purtk is right on this issue. During WW2 Polish lands were divided into so called "General Government" which was occupation administration and the rest (Upper Silesia, Pommerania and other western/northern lands) which were directly annexed into the 3rd Reich. There were much different policies toward the Poles in these two areas. In GG people weren't actively encouraged to sign Volksliste, in Warsaw the people who did It were below 1%, usually those with real German roots and in the lands annexed into the Reich often over 30% because there was a strong preussure put on the people with any "German connection" (often only "Aryan look" or any acestors serving in the German army and as most of those land were under German occupation before WW1, It was of course very common) to do that, people living there were going to be either Germanized or expelled, those who refused to sign volsliste at best were being deported to the GG with one suitcase in hand, often they were sent into slave labor or concentration camps. Silesians and Kashubians were another case, most of them were automatically classified as volksdeutschers. Conditions were much different in the GG and the annexed lands and so was the attitude of the local population toward the volksliste, in GG anyone signing It was considerated a traitor and in many cases executed for that thing alone and the people living in the annexed lands were encouraged to sign the list as a way to save their lives even by some members of the Polish government in excile. "Volksdeutschers" were of course drafted into the Wehrmacht... desserters were the main source of man power for the Polish forces in the west, 1/3 of the airborn brigade, which took part in the "Market Garden" operation were ex-Wehrmacht soldiers and those people were dropped behind the enemy lines, so much for volunteers....


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