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If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"...


Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
1 Mar 2010 #121
Poles weren't asked to join the Wehrmacht, only Germans.

My family had German heritage, still they were asked formally if they were Germans (Grunwald isn't very Polish is it? Although Grünewalde would been more correct I presume)

Ofc my grandpa's father said no
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #122
That's what I'm saying all along....they were asked, nobody was forced! If they counted themselves as Germans they had to follow the same conscription rules as in the Reich of course.

All this "we were forced" was a convenient alibi once the Wehrmacht left...understandable but still only an alibi to survive the course of events!

All of Germany would have this alibi if you take it seriously...as every conscription under a dictatorship is more or less forceful. ;)
Or how do you think the military police handled Reichs-german conscript refugees???

(But it is really astounding how many Germans are here on PF!) :)
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
1 Mar 2010 #123
All this "we were forced" was a convenient alibi once the Wehrmacht left...understandable but still only an alibi to survive the course of events!

Bratwurst Boy...
According to the people that were in the DVL 3 ("Eingedeutschte") they the vast majority was indeed forced to go to the Wehrmacht. They were "Wehrpflichtige" and not "Freiwillige". The German citizenchip was voluntarily (you had the choice, take it, and live a more or less peacefull life, or don't take, stay a polish citizen and get maybe deported as a Pole to a concentration camp).

Bratwurst Boy:
Poles weren't asked to join the Wehrmacht, only Germans.

Do you mean by Germans only ethnic Germans or also people with a German citizenship (like Kashubs etc.)?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #124
Do you mean by Germans only ethnic Germans or also people with a German citizenship (like Kashubs etc.)?

Those with the Arier-Nachweis!
Germany at that time didn't give out citizenship like it does today.
You needed blood relationship, being of german heritage.....

Volksliste 1 were all ethnic Germans in the Reich
Volksliste 2 were all ethnic Germans outside of the actually borders after the Treaty of Versailles and of those strong minorities in other european countries.

I mean those two!

And for most of the higher professions and careers Germans needed to bring documents which showed their heritage back to 1750, the so called "Arier-Nachweis".

But very rarely people were forced into 1 or 2, why should Germany do so and why?
As the Nazis were busy all the time to weed out the Jews and the "subhumans", looking under every stone for them, should they now actually force foreigners to become Germans???

You had to bring some evidence and actually apply for it or to subscribe when you were asked.
It is illogical to force non-Germans and it was not regular practice.... but that narrative was the big and useful alibi after the war!
But I think now, 65 years after we can talk more openly about this....

They were "Wehrpflichtige" and not "Freiwillige".

Freiwillige were for the SS mainly.

Wehrpflichtige were for the Wehrmacht. Conscription was for all able, male Germans. Germans only!
I'm sure there were no german nationals conscripted into the polish forces....well, the same was true with the german army too.
You can call it "forcing"...as every conscription is kind of "forcing".
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
1 Mar 2010 #125
Those with the Arier-Nachweis!

But my ancestors had also an Arier - Nachweis and were categorized as Volksliste 3. We and many other people needed this to prove that there were no Jewish familiymembers in our ancestry. And there was absolutly no German blood involved! But maybe this comes so, because my ancestors were / are Kashubian.

But very rarely people were forced into 1 or 2.

I agree with you here on a 100 %, those that were 1 or 2 were voluntary there.

It is illogical to force non-Germans and it was not regular practic.... but that narrative was the big and useful alibi after the war!

Belive me, the non ethnic German DVL 3 people were forced and it was regular practic. Yes, it is illogical, but that how things went on here, at least in the "Reichsgau Danzig - Westpreußen"! The Veterans etc. could lie, but not their "Wehrpäße". By all of them there stood "Wehrpflichtiger".
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #126
But my ancestors had also an Arier - Nachweis and were categorized as Volksliste 3. We and many other people needed this to prove that there were no Jewish familiymembers in our ancestry.

Well...to be honest....I don't know enough of your case to judge.
But if your family had the Arier-Nachweis then you are full blooded Germans as in Volksliste 1 (Congratulations).

With the big one (going back to 1700) you were even eligible for an officers career in the german forces! ;)

And there was absolutly no German blood involved!

Well...something doesn't add up here....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_certificate

In Nazi Germany, the Aryan certificate (German: Ariernachweis) was a document this certified that a person belonged to Aryan race.

Here is more info (in german only)
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariernachweis

Belive me, the non ethnic German DVL 3 people were forced and it was regular practic.

Frankly...something doesn't add up here.
As your Arier-Nachweis clearly proves your german heritage you were free for conscriptions like all Germans.

No DVL 3 for you! ;)
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
1 Mar 2010 #127
But if your family had the Arier-Nachweis then you are full blooded Germans as in Volksliste 1 (Congratulations).

Thats the first time I hear that! But I can guarente you, that all my ancestors were Volksliste 3 and there was no German ancestry. In my ancestry were the majority Kashubs, a few Poles and we got the "Ariernachweis" without any problems. Hmm, maybe it was so, because my ancestors spoke German quiet well...?

Right now I'm not that sure anymore with the Ariernachweis, but I'll look it up.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #128
But I can guarente you, that all my ancestors were Volksliste 3 and there was no German ancestry.

Then you could hardly had an Arier-Nachweis, can't you? ;)

Look it up, if it's the real thing you should find all names and stuff from your german ancestors (birth, marriage, death, where, when etc)...after all that's what that thing was for in the first place!

(A treasure for all interested in genealogy!)

On the other hand literature nobel prize winner Günther Grass was a Kashub from Danzig...he ended the war as a youth in the Waffen-SS.

Maybe you really count as full-Germans...even then, no DVL 3 for you, but 1.
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
1 Mar 2010 #129
I'll look it up. But I can guarantee 100% that we were DVL 3 and were forced to go to the Wehrmacht. I think I've must been mistaken then with the "Ariel - Nachweis ;)".
TheOther 6 | 3,818
1 Mar 2010 #130
A treasure for all interested in genealogy!

Yes and no. It can give you a good indication in which direction to look, but I would never rely on the data. The Ariernachweis was one of the most often forged documents in Germany.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #131
The Ariernachweis was one of the most forged documents in Germany.

I disagree!
It was an official document for what your grandparents had to bring proof, like birth certificates, they needed to write to churches for marriage certificates, clerks needed to subscribe those documents etc.

Surely some could forge all that, the same who can also forge passports...but most people can't.

And they were checked and today when you are interested you can re-check it all over....a great starting point for family genealogy!
TheOther 6 | 3,818
1 Mar 2010 #132
See genealogienetz.de/vereine/wgff/faq/faq_nszeit.htm
for example:

Quote:
"Im übrigen sei an dieser Stelle davor gewarnt, Angaben aus den "Ariernachweisen" unkritisch zu übernehmen."
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
1 Mar 2010 #133
Further down:

Im Einzelfall mögen auch bewußt Daten gefälscht worden sein, um den geforderten Nachweis der "arischen" Abstammung erbringen zu können.

I believe passports could be more often forged than the Ahnenpass! ;)
TheOther 6 | 3,818
1 Mar 2010 #134
Yeah. I didn't mean "forged" in the sense of "gefälscht", but more in the sense of an Ariernachweis using wrong data. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
THE HITMAN
2 Mar 2010 #135
But I can guarantee 100% that we were DVL 3 and were forced to go to the Wehrmacht.

guarantee

But I can guarente you, that all my ancestors were Volksliste 3 and there was no German ancestry.

guarantee

Right now I'm not that sure anymore with the Ariernachweis,

not that sure

maybe it was so, because my ancestors spoke German quiet well...?

who are you kidding ?

And there was absolutly no German blood involved!

Is that another guarantee ?

And who informed you ?

Many of people that been trough this, tons of German documents etc. etc.

Misinformed. etc, etc.
A lot here looks like your ancestors were German. Maybe your family have lied to you over the years, in order to keep this true information from you.

I think you are living in denial.
Best check out those skeletons in the cupboard.
porzeczka - | 102
2 Mar 2010 #136
Such an "elite" is a bunch of mediocre mfs.

Your 'elite' was similar.

Looks like? ;)

'Polish chauvinism' heard from a Lithuanian mouth ('more primitive partner')? You simply don't want to accept that 'barbarian' Polish culture/identity was attractive enough to be preferred over others ;) EOT
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
2 Mar 2010 #137
Hey Hitty. Back again from "stressing" 90 year old "traitors"?

Misinformed. etc, etc.

If you think that your communist propaganda is right then I'm missinformed as hell. You seem to be really good at avoiding more truthful sources then your's are.

A lot here looks like your ancestors were German.

They had the German citizenchip in war, but they weren't ethnic German. I hope you understand the difference (I guess it's really hard to catch it for you).

Maybe your family have lied to you over the years, in order to keep this true information from you.

Trust me, they didn't.
But I heard reports about people that were actually Volksdeutsche / ethnic Germans in Poland that hided after the war and told that they were in the resistance and were more Polish then every Pole could be. And as beelzebub mentioned right, those persons that really did it, don't brag about it. Maybe your family have lied to you over the years? Best check out those skeletons in the cupboard.

As I said serval times, Inform yourself first, then we can talk. Up to now you haven't brought anything useful to the table. Maybe by "stressing" "traitors" you try to make amends what your ancestors had done in the past? But it's ok, you are a kid.

I think you are living in denial.

You are repeating yourself *Yawn*

Morsczi_Purtk:
And who informed you ?

Many of people that been trough this, tons of German documents etc. etc.

Misinformed. etc, etc.

Haha. "Misinformed" said the (Hit)man who thought "Volksdeutsche" were ethnic Kashubs etc. that were in the Wehrmacht.

Morsczi_Purtk:
maybe it was so, because my ancestors spoke German quiet well...?

who are you kidding ?

YAY! You've just shown again that you neither know anything about the loses of "Pomeranians" in the "Reichsgau Danzig - Westpreußen", nor you know wich logical aftermaths the partition of Poland for the inhabitants had (wich is really embarassing by the way for a such a great Pole like you). Please go on, it's getting really funny now and try to post more then a few sentences. It's not that hard, even you can manage it.

Mòrsczi Púrtk
THE HITMAN
2 Mar 2010 #138
You’ve just shown again that you neither know anything about the loses of "Pomeranians" in the "Reichsgau Danzig - Westpreußen", nor you know wich logical aftermaths the partition of Poland for the inhabitants had (wich is really embarassing by the way for a such a great Pole like you).

Um !! That,s why I am pomeranian.

"There is no Cassubia without Poland, and no Poland without Cassubia"

Some later Kashubian activists rejected the idea of a separate Kashub nation and considered themselves a unique branch of the Polish nation

The Kashubians faced Germanization efforts,

During the Second World War, Kashubians were considered by the Nazis as being either of "German stock" or "extraction", or "inclined toward Germanness" and "capable of Germanisation", and thus classified third category of Deutsche Volksliste (German ethnic classification list) if possible ties to the Polish nation could be dissolved.[26] However, Kashubians who were suspected to support the Polish cause[24], particularly those with higher education,[24] were arrested and executed, the main place of executions being Piaśnica (Groß Plaßnitz),[27] where according 12,000 were executed.[

I live just down the road from here.

So are you still going to call me communist etc.

Your forefathers carried out these atrocities, so live with it.

Please go on, it's getting really funny now

Glad you find it amusing, I,m not laughing. Are you ?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
2 Mar 2010 #139
What is your problem Hitty?

Aren't your WWII ego shooters not enough for you?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
2 Mar 2010 #140
You simply don't want to accept that 'barbarian' Polish culture/identity was attractive enough to be preferred over others ;)

No, I completely understand preferences. But when you prefer some other "culture", totally downgrading your own and naming it primitive and other elevated, then you are nothing more than a cheap sell-out. And I don't care who he was: Ukrainian, Polish or Lithuanian. He was a scum as a person, even though he is considered a marvelous writer. (Though for me he even isn't anything to be excited as a poet either).
OP Morsczi_Purtk 1 | 25
2 Mar 2010 #141
Um !! That,s why I am pomeranian.

Wow, that's even worser...

The Kashubians faced Germanization efforts,

You don't have to tell me that.

Kashubians were considered by the Nazis as being either of "German stock" or "extraction"

I've read serval times that some nazis belived, that Kashubs were originally Goths. Isn't that funny :D? Kashubs were, are and will be Slavs and so I'm.

Your forefathers carried out these atrocities, so live with it.

Nope, they didn't. You've shown us that you don't know some basic things about the time when Kashubia was located in "Westpreußen" (and that as a Pomeranian! Or did you meant those Pomeranian dogs ;)? ) and you are trying to tell me about my ancestry? As I said, you are pretty amusing. By the way, wich atrocities do you mean exactly?

...were arrested and executed, the main place of executions being Piaśnica (Groß Plaßnitz),[27] where according 12,000 were executed.

Well, one of my ancestors just got murdered there. It's good that you mention this crime, may the generations after us will never forget what happened there...

So are you still going to call me communist etc.

Oh, poor you.. how could I? Do you want a tissue, Hitty? Just an advice: Read closer. I didn't say that you were a communist, what I said was, that you obviously used communist propaganda as a source. That's all.

Glad you find it amusing, I,m not laughing. Are you ?

Your posts are amusing, no doubt. Please continue.

Mòrsczi Púrtk
THE HITMAN
2 Mar 2010 #142
Kashubs were, are and will be Slavs and so I'm.

Ah !! Now I get it. You are Kashubian decent, but shamed by the fact your ancestors were in the wehrmacht.

Wow, that's even worser..

WORSE

That,s where we differ, your ancestors ceded to the wehrmacht, mine didn,t.

I didn't say that you were a communist

And I didn,t say........

said the (Hit)man who thought "Volksdeutsche" were ethnic Kashubs etc. that were in the Wehrmacht.

You referred it.

Junge, junge !!
Torq 32 | 2,897
2 Mar 2010 #143
Wow, that's even worser...

WORSE

Oh, we have an English Language Professor here, ladies and gentlemen!
OK - let's look at your language, Professor!

You are Kashubian decent

Well, he surely is a decent Kashubian, but what you wanted to write was
"You are OF Kashubian DESCENT", Professor ;)
THE HITMAN
2 Mar 2010 #144
^^^Torq^^^

Oh, we have an English Language Professor here, ladies and gentlemen!

His posts are flawed with mistakes, and I have never taken the mickey once, as we all make mistakes. No one is perfect, after all.

You obviously misunderstood my intent of expressing that he was worse than I. ( Read the previous post ). But you want to take the p... , fair enough.

So putting it politely Torq, go and whistle. I,m not writing an English language test paper.
Torq 32 | 2,897
3 Mar 2010 #145
His posts are flawed with mistakes,

Well, his first language is Polish, second is Kashubian and English is only his
third language (maybe not even third, I don't know) so he's bound to make
a lot of mistakes - I don't mind if someone corrects my English, as it is also
my third/fourth language, but I expect the person who does it to avoid making
simple mistakes in the process ;)

Anyway - as you said, I was just taking the p**s.

You obviously misunderstood my intent of expressing that
he was worse than I.

Usually, when someone has an intent of expressing that another person is inferior to him
(basing on the deeds of his ancestors) I have a lot of trouble understanding that.

So putting it politely Torq, go and whistle.

That's actually very polite - I don't even feel insulted. This forum is going downhill
with insults like that. You should take some lessons from Harry ;)
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #146
That's actually very polite - I don't even feel insulted. This forum is going downhill
with insults like that. You should take some lessons from Harry ;)

It costs nothing to be polite, and I would rather not go down the same road as some others in being crude and vulgar. Just no need for it.

After all, I believe people that offend on this forum are in reality weak, plus it,s against the rules.

As for

Usually, when someone has an intent of expressing that another person is inferior to him
(basing on the deeds of his ancestors) I have a lot of trouble understanding that.

... again, read his replies, it,s not my intention to be superior to him, it is him who is trying to belittle me, then one minute he guarantees, then he,s not sure...... so I,m beginning to doubt his argument.

I personally believe he is only happy when someone gives him support, but not visa versa.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
3 Mar 2010 #147
again, read his replies, it,s not my intention to be superior to him, it is him who is trying to belittle me,

Well, your first post here was already crude...with that you deserved everything you got!
marqoz - | 195
3 Mar 2010 #148
the reasons I consider him a mediocre personality

OK. Nathan, I've read this essay by Venclova. But still didn't understand why you can consider Mickiewicz so mediocre personality.
Bzibzioh
3 Mar 2010 #149
Oh, don't worry: he has no clue either. He is just desperately trying to stay relevant in this discussion so he is coming with shocking statements like this one. He is as phony as they come.
THE HITMAN
3 Mar 2010 #150
Well, your first post here was already crude...with that you deserved everything you got!

Traitors, should be dealt with.

.... 1st post.

Directed to whom in person, you ?

So if someone hurts your family through treason, you would turn the other cheek ?

" deserved everything I got " ....... like what did I get ?

I believe you are German with Polish roots, with which you have a psychological problem. Otherwise what,s your interest on PF ?

Everything between our peoples was so mixed and so messed up....most of us have probably ancestors from both sides anyhow...

And this is your problem....... ancestors from both sides.


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